New Contest Proposal--Smallville

[fwright]

I concur with most of Old dog's comments.  Midwest is not a well-defined term.  Does Midwest include the Great Plains?  As far as Denver and Cheyenne?  How about Minnesota and Wisconsin?  Upper Peninsula Michigan?  The Ozarks in Arkansas and Missouri?

Out in Oregon and California (2 states I know more about) there was more than one agricultural town that built its own railroad to link with the Class I that bypassed it.  I suspect this happened other places as well.  These are ideal for short line and agricultural town LDEs.  But these had long passed their peak traffic-wise by the 1950s as roads were built and trucks took over.  1900 to 1915 - when there few alternatives for overland transport - would have been their heyday (and of course dearer to my heart), perhaps earlier in the Midwest and East.

But those are just my preferences.  I don't think we are going to reach a consensus on preferred parameters, so let he who is running the contest set the rules.  Then it is time to put up or shut up.  Spacemouse, what say ye?

Fred W 

[DigitalGriffin]

The Old Dog would suggest thatb the word "midwestern" be deleted. As "Texas Zepher" said in another thread;

That kind of defeats a purpose of a LDE though.  You need a prototype from which to model.

I would still like to suggest Frederick Maryland and/or it's outlying towns that support it.  There should be something for everyone with the vast variety of operation.  You could model from early 1900's to 1950.  You can do modern day commuter service (MARC train)  Or do regional Maryland Midway.   http://www.mmidrwy.com/ .Heckyou could even do the Civil war:

"President Lincoln visits Army of Potomac @ Frederick Maryland"

I would be willing to supply photos, maps, as well as historical records for the town.  Since this would give me an unfair advantage to everyone, I would of course recuse myself from the competition.

You guys would have to give me at least a week however, as I would need to call the Frederick historical society and get times that they would allow me to peruse documents.

[tomikawaTT]

Hmmmm...

Midwest.  Isn't that defined as being somewhere between the Appalachians and the Rockies?  After all, the, "Northwest Territories," became four states - all east of the Mississippi.

Small town.  Having grown up in New York, lived in Tokyo and presently residing in a VERY fast growing metropolitan area with close to 2 megafolks for neighbors, my definition of, "small town," would encompass every settlement in half the states between the Mississippi and the Front Range, and most of the settlements in the rest.  If I can drive across the city boundaries in fifteen minutes at freeway speeds, it qualifies.

"Typical small town."  That's like defining a, "Typical," human being.  All of them have unique characteristics which define them and separate them from all others.

Of course, someone said, "Beyond the ocean," which is far from being the American midwest.  If I pursue that, there used to be a cute little 762mm gauge railroad that served an agricultural region north of Kasaoka in Okayama Prefecture...

Naah.  No mountains, just rice paddies.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[SpaceMouse]

The Old Dog would suggest thatb the word "midwestern" be deleted. As "Texas Zepher" said in another thread;

That kind of defeats a purpose of a LDE though.  You need a prototype from which to model.

I would still like to suggest Frederick Maryland and/or it's outlying towns that support it.  There should be something for everyone with the vast variety of operation.  You could model from early 1900's to 1950.  I would be willing to supply photos, maps, as well as historical records for the town.  Since this would give me an unfair advantage to everyone, I would of course recuse myself from the competition.

You guys would have to give me at least a week however, as I would need to call the Frederick historical society and get times that they would allow me to peruse documents.

My preference here is to add a little more challenge to the contest, but it seems the more specific you become the less peopel want to participate, especially with those us who never lived or even visted the area.

I like the idea of taking a specific idea, like Fredrick and creating a layout. In fact, that's what I did with my PRR layout (and 2 x 8 is a pretty tight space to do it.) However, I fear that only 2 or three people would take the challenge. It might attract some of the LDSIG interested, but I think they are pretty much thumbing their noses at our silly little musings.

But those are just my preferences.  I don't think we are going to reach a consensus on preferred parameters, so let he who is running the contest set the rules.  Then it is time to put up or shut up.  Spacemouse, what say ye?

Fred W 

Okay, we'll serve this one up and where it gets whacked.

2 x 8 agricultural town no era no locational boundries HO scale (N can scale down to 13" x 52")

Grade and curve radius issues apply

 

 

[fwright]

The Old Dog would suggest thatb the word "midwestern" be deleted. As "Texas Zepher" said in another thread;

That kind of defeats a purpose of a LDE though.  You need a prototype from which to model.

I would still like to suggest Frederick Maryland and/or it's outlying towns that support it.  You could model from early 1900's to 1950.  I would be willing to supply photos, maps, as well as historical records for the town.  Since this would give me an unfair advantage to everyone, I would of course recuse myself from the competition.

You guys would have to give me at least a week however, as I would need to call the Frederick historical society and get times that they would allow me to peruse documents.

There are 2 opposing schools of thought going on here.  One is to take a specified prototype setting - whether it be Frederick or a 1950s generic Midwest agricultural town or some other - and may the best interpretation win.  It's really a pretty good apple-to-apples comparison.  But those who have no interest in the specified prototype or model constraints may well skip the contest, limiting the number of entries.

The other school (my preference) is really an open challenge.  Define or choose your own prototype, and then interpret it.  If you twist yourself enough, you could end up justifying any desired layout for the space.  But that would be for the judges and comments to decide.  Like the previous contests, there would likely be a large variety of submissions, which would make comparisons difficult, and perhaps meaningless.  But there would almost certainly be a greater number of submissions as each person submitted an LDE based on his favorite scene or prototype.  Leaving scale open also encourages greater participation.

One of the reasons I favor the second approach is that the work in submitting the design would be useful on my own layout, which already has an established theme, era, and prototype. 

Another reason for the second approach is that I receive comments and constructive criticism on ideas which I might incorporate in my own layout.  I'm much more interested in the comments and criticism than I am in competing against others.  But why wait for a "contest" to submit?  From watching the forums, I certainly get the sense that contest entries get much more scrutiny and review than an individual post.

As I said before, with the 2 schools of thought and apparently fairly equally divided in this thread, the contest "owner" is going to have to decide which path to take.

my thoughts

Fred W 

[DigitalGriffin]

My objection to the Midwest idea was not the local, but rather the lack of prototype information as I know nothing of midwest operations, and none was supplied.  Hence forth why I suggested Frederick since I could supply so much information to put everyone on a level playing field.

Whatever you guys come up with is fine.  An LDE, or not. 

[exPalaceDog]

I would still like to suggest Frederick Maryland and/or it's outlying towns that support it.  There should be something for everyone with the vast variety of operation.  You could model from early 1900's to 1950.  You can do modern day commuter service (MARC train)  Or do regional Maryland Midway.   http://www.mmidrwy.com/ .Heckyou could even do the Civil war:

"President Lincoln visits Army of Potomac @ Frederick Maryland"

I would be willing to supply photos, maps, as well as historical records for the town.  Since this would give me an unfair advantage to everyone, I would of course recuse myself from the competition.

Well, there are some 1909 topo maps at

http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.cfm?fname=ijam09nw.jpg&state=MD

There are some Sanborne Insurance Maps at

http://sanborn.umi.com/md/3603/dateid-000006.htm?CCSI=82n

Aerial Photos are available at www.msn.com

Some coverage at

http://www.nationalatlas.gov/

Have fun

 

[Texas Zepher]

[quote user="exPalaceDogThere are some Sanborne Insurance Maps at

http://sanborn.umi.com/md/3603/dateid-000006.htm?CCSI=82n[/quote] The maps at this link are for subscribers only.  However I can't seem to find out how or how much it costs to subscribe.

[DigitalGriffin]

The maps at this link are for subscribers only.  However I can't seem to find out how or how much it costs to subscribe.

Access to Digital Sanborn Maps, 1867-1970 is available to authorized users at subscribing institutions only. Subscribers are required to sign a User License. Please contact your ProQuest Information and Learning representative.

 

[vsmith]

.

 

[SpaceMouse]

The Old Dog would suggest thatb the word "midwestern" be deleted. As "Texas Zepher" said in another thread;

That kind of defeats a purpose of a LDE though.  You need a prototype from which to model.

I would still like to suggest Frederick Maryland and/or it's outlying towns that support it.  There should be something for everyone with the vast variety of operation.  You could model from early 1900's to 1950.  I would be willing to supply photos, maps, as well as historical records for the town.  Since this would give me an unfair advantage to everyone, I would of course recuse myself from the competition.

You guys would have to give me at least a week however, as I would need to call the Frederick historical society and get times that they would allow me to peruse documents.

My preference here is to add a little more challenge to the contest, but it seems the more specific you become the less peopel want to participate, especially with those us who never lived or even visted the area.

I like the idea of taking a specific idea, like Fredrick and creating a layout. In fact, that's what I did with my PRR layout (and 2 x 8 is a pretty tight space to do it.) However, I fear that only 2 or three people would take the challenge. It might attract some of the LDSIG interested, but I think they are pretty much thumbing their noses at our silly little musings.

But those are just my preferences.  I don't think we are going to reach a consensus on preferred parameters, so let he who is running the contest set the rules.  Then it is time to put up or shut up.  Spacemouse, what say ye?

Fred W 

Okay, we'll serve this one up and where it gets whacked.

2 x 8 agricultural town no era no locational boundries HO scale (N can scale down to 13" x 52")

Grade and curve radius issues apply

 

This seems to have been lost in the shuffle so I'll repost it in case you're just ignoring it.

[Jetrock]

2x8 agricultural town, eh? Hm...the "West Sacramento" as-yet-undesigned corner of my layout certainly fits both into the size limitations, the era, and the theme...and the Sacramento Valley is basically the Midwest of California. Sounds like I might have to throw my hat in the ring for this one!

[exPalaceDog]

Okay, we'll serve this one up and where it gets whacked.

2 x 8 agricultural town no era no locational boundries HO scale (N can scale down to 13" x 52")

Grade and curve radius issues apply

This seems to have been lost in the shuffle so I'll repost it in case you're just ignoring it.

Suggest that the word "town" be replaced with "station" or "installation" or maybe "village". Requiring the inclusion of a town on the module might consume to much space. On the other and it could solve the problem of hiddining the back edge. In many cases, the station was a short distance outside of the town proper. See Centerville, Pa on the maps link below

http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.cfm?fname=twnv32ne.jpg&state=PA

http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/index.cfm?lat=41.73611&lon=-79.76333&scale=25000&type=1&zoom=100&bpid=HIS0203033115%2C2%2C1%2C0&latlontype=DMS&searchscope=dom&CFID=1155414&CFTOKEN=82785359

The station and milk plant were on the PA RR just east of the village

The feed mill was on the PA just south of town.

See also (for aerial photo

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?wip=2&v=2&rtp=~&FORM=MSNH#JndoZXJlMT1DZW50ZXJ2aWxsZSUyYytQYSZiYj01NS43NzY1NzMwMTg2Njc3JTdlLTM0LjgwNDY4NzUlN2UxOC42NDYyNDUxNDI2NzA2JTdlLTEzMy40MTc5Njg3NQ==

To the Old Dog this is the type of place we should be thinking about. The word "town" implies too large of a location.

See also for an employee time table listing the station (Chautauqua Branch)

http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/downloads/ett_5504_conemaugh.pdf

Have fun

 

 

 

[SpaceMouse]

On the other hand, the small town I'm living in had a large center of distribution in the center of town. And within the town, a brewery, glass factory, a tire factory, railroad service from two major railroads (and a passenger/freight station for each).

However, to get things rolling along....

2 x 8

somewhere in or about a small agricultural town

no era no locational boundries

HO scale (N can scale down to 13" x 52")

Grade and curve radius issues apply

 

Anything else 

[vsmith]

.

 

[DigitalGriffin]

prototype ...too restrictive for my tastes, back to my layout

 

Prototype has been stricken from the record.  It's just a midwest farming town local from everything I can tell.

[SpaceMouse]

prototype ...too restrictive for my tastes, back to my layout

 

Prototype has been stricken from the record.  It's just a midwest farming town local from everything I can tell.

Nope can be an ice farm in Pt. Barrow, AK.

[vsmith]

.

[SpaceMouse]

Then I'll repose my question;

Standalone, or Module?

I could go either way, but so far the thread has been leaning toward "part of something larger."

That however presents the problem of: do we allow yard leads, yard tracks, interchange tracks, ends of wyes, etc. to extend off the 2 x 8 area.

To make it work both ways, we can say that the mainline, either double or single can connect to either side of the layout. Likewise, an interchange track can extend off either side of the layout, but any "interchange" must take place within the 2 x 8 boundaries.

[Autobus Prime]

However, to get things rolling along....

2 x 8

somewhere in or about a small agricultural town

no era no locational boundries

HO scale (N can scale down to 13" x 52")

Grade and curve radius issues apply

SM:

Sounds good to me.  I've got an idea already.

When do we start?

 

[vsmith]

.

[marknewton]

I've thought long and hard about this for a few days now - do I reply to KingConrail's last post, or let it go unchallenged? It contained a number of false assumptions that I think are worth correcting, to say nothing of the way he misrepresented my position. Since KC made it personal, I've decided to claim my right of reply. I've rearranged the order of his post so I can make my points in a more logical order, but I've not altered the context of his words.

KingConrail wrote: ...I can see now just how opinionated, and closed minded people can be.

Yes, I'm opinionated. Why else would a person post in a forum like this if not to express an opinion? You did. I offered an opinion which simply differed from yours, without impugning your character or your knowledge.

As for being "close-minded", I say bollocks to that. Apart from exchanging opinions, I visit the forum to learn, get ideas, be inspired. My modelling interests have led me to travel overseas, learn a new language, and immerse myself in a society and culture utterly unlike my own. Not the actions of a close-minded person, I reckon.

OTOH, a person who reacts as you did to a mere difference of opinion could be regarded as close-minded, I think.

"I saw you "agreed" with someone else’s suggestion, and you "disagreed" with mine, but Mark...What is your suggestion? I'm sure Australian PROTOTYPE differs from U.S. Prototype, so I don't expect you to be an expert on the United States Mid-West region either, but maybe you could still add something creative for Chip to mull over."

Australian prototype doesn't differ from the US as much as you may think, except in one very important respect which I'll touch on later, but that's otherwise irrelevant to this discussion. I don't profess to be an "expert" on the US Midwest either, but I do reckon I'm fairly knowledgable on the subject. I spent 25 years modelling Midwest railroads, and in that period I devoted a lot of time and effort to prototype research. I'm arguing from a position of knowledge, not unsubstantiated opinion.

As for adding something creative to Chip's competition, I believe I've done that, and can do so again. Remind me, which was your entry in the 10x12 contest?

As I am from the East Coast of the United States of America, I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, an expert on the MidWest region. I do however know that the US Prototype DID assign motive power to small towns with enough switching to justify it,

Agreed, but that's not what you originally stated, nor is it a fact I dispute. You wrote, in separate posts:

Actually...The Era WAS specified as 1950 to 1955, and I do believe that almost ALL small towns would have some provision for watering and coaling a steam engine, even if it were only a small tank and a bin to shovel from.

I had suggested a small industrial area of a small midwestern town with several industries and a small service area on the premise that a small (0-4-0, or 0-6-0) Loco may be assigned to the town for switching or short branchline work.

Despite what you "believe", almost all small towns did not have some provision for watering and coaling a steam engine, even if it were only a small tank and a "bin" to shovel from. The evidence is there in documents such as ICC valuation dockets and Sanborne insurance maps, track charts, employee timetables and instruction books, and similar.  The reasons for this are numerous, partly due to factors such as the cost of providing and maintaining infrastructure, and partly due to the way steam locos were utilised. A far more likely arrangement is that the assigned power would be serviced and maintained by the nearest major engine terminal.

At a bare minimum, to service a steam loco you need some means of watering it, some means of fuelling it, some means of sanding it,  an inspection pit, an ashpit if it's coal-fired, and a workforce to make it all happen. All of these things cost money to build, money to operate, money to maintain, and money on payday - which is why they tended to be concentrated either at division points, or across the division at suitable intervals based on the requirements of the motive power on that division.

(In an operational sense, railroads obviated the need to provide servicing facilities in every town by running locals or turns to serve them. The most recent issue of MR has a good little article explaining exactly how that worked.)

I'd love to see an example of a "bin to shovel from" that you refer to. There's some very good reasons railroads don't coal locos from the ground by hand - it's slow, labour intensive, wasteful and inefficient. If you're looking for examples of locos being coaled by means other than large fixed installations, you'd mostly find it being done from gondolas, either by steam grabs/whirlies, or by blokes with shovels.

I'd also love to see an example of any 0-4-0 being used by a Midwestern Class 1 road to switch or run branchline trains in the years 1950 to 1955.

and said motive power would need to consume coal and water to produce power.

Yes, they would. But a typical loco of that period in local or switching service would have more than adequate bunker capacity to work a shift without refuelling. You badly misjudge how long it takes to consume 12 to 14 tons of coal and 8000 gallons of water when the loco is in relatively undemanding service. As the front half of the bunker is emptied on a hand-fired loco, the fireman - or other employer if provided - would move the remaining coal forward to where it could be more easily reached. Here we called it "shovelling forward". On a stoker-fired engine the fireman simply pulls the slides forward to expose the rear of the stoker feed screw trough. Or the engine might be fitted with a coal pusher... Oil burners will run until the oil runs out - which will be long after the working day has ended.

The water will be consumed much more quickly of course, hence the presence of tanks and standpipes every 25 miles or so - but again, not in every single town.

Your suggestion that these items are "purely Model Railroad concepts" is astonishingly uneducated.

Sorry but that's all they are, nothing more. Contrary to your opinion I'm very well educated in how steam locos are utilised, and what their servicing and maintenance requirements are. On the railway I work for here in Australia regular steam operation did not finish until 1988. I started as an apprentice engineman in 1975. Main line steam heritage services continued until 2003, which is when I retired from the footplate and took up running electrics. So don't dare presume to tell me I'm "uneducated" about how steam locos are used and what infrastructure they need. I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about the bloody things.

As for the "heap of features added that aren't typical of such places in reality", where and how do Farmers ship and receive their Goods? Where and how do small Manufactures ship and receive their Goods?

The answer in both cases is freight houses, team tracks, and perhaps private sidings, although if we limit ourselves to small manufacturers these would probably be the exception rather than the rule.  But in the period in question, there was a great emphasis on LCL, so much of that traffic could be handled by the freight house alone. Come to that, I can show you plenty of examples of loading and unloading goods and LCL while the train is stopped at a grade crossing. None of this requires anything as unlikely as branchline 0-4-0s or coal bins.

I believe the OP clearly stated... "The challenge is to design a small Midwestern agricultural-based town, either real or free-lance in 1950-1955 that provides operational and visual interest...

Yes, and the vast majority of those places didn't have much more than a passing track, a freight house, a team track and an elevator siding, if that. If you fully understood the way railroads worked in those days you'd be able to derive a great deal of operational and visual interest from that.

It was clear to me when I read the above quote from Chip's OP that hewas implying that though the town was small, it generated and receive a goodamount of Rail traffic. That being the case, this would be a central pointwhere surrounding farmers would have a Co-Op grain elevator, there wouldbe a Team track for receiving such items as new Tractors or Implements (beingin the "boom" of the mid 50's, farmers would prosper like the rest of theNation). There would have to be atleast ONE other business large enough tosupport a population, (not all people in the midwest Farm) and to generateand receive the amount of traffic refered to in the OP. And being such asmall town that it would have a large volume of Rail traffic, it is alsolikely that PROTOTYPICALLY there would be a water tower and a pile of coal SOMEWHERE around town to rewater and refuel the Locos moving those trains.

No, for the reasons outlined above. And the freight can be dealt with by the freight house, team track and elevator siding. If you look at what real railroads did in those days to handle the business, instead of what modellers like to imagine things were like now, you'd soon realise this was the case.

Not to mention being visually and operationally interesting. I guess a single track mainline passing through (with no stops) a quaint little village is what you consider interesting.

That depends - it could well be, if it were done the right way. But you strike me as having unquestioningly accepted the idea that interesting "operation" can only be had by shuffling individual cars endlessly around some variant of a Timesaver. Too much track and industry crammed into too little space - model railroad concepts, not LDE's.

But in the end Mark, it was just a suggestion that I made. One that you can embrace, or ignore. I am not in charge of this contest, and I will not be the one to decide what ideas are usable or not. I simply made a suggestion.

Indeed. And yet I did exactly the same - what's the difference?

All the best,

Mark.

PS: Thanks for sticking up for me, Stein - I'll PM you tomorrow when I get a chance.

[Texas Zepher]

Okay, we'll serve this one up and where it gets whacked.

2 x 8 agricultural town no era no locational boundries HO scale (N can scale down to 13" x 52")

Grade and curve radius issues apply.

I don't really see much whacking.  Do we have a plan then?  My entry is almost ready - not too many options on a 2x8.

[vsmith]

.

[chadw]

I had alredy started a plan for the 6x6 space but since we're having a 2x8 contest I'll post it here.

Now to get started on the 2x8...

[KingConrail76]

Mark, 

Unless your entire intent was to argue over none issues, I don't see your point in posting the above reply AFTER sending me a Private Message on the same subject.

Apperantly it was more important for you to "challenge" me, as you stated in your opening sentence, than to provide a suggestion for the contest, which just goes to further my OPINONS about a growing number of persons that post on this forum.

I have replied to all the comments in your post Via Private Messege, to avoid others having to be bothered by this.

[KingConrail76]

I had alredy started a plan for the 6x6 space but since we're having a 2x8 contest I'll post it here.

Now to get started on the 2x8...

As I was a supporter of the 6x6, I'll comment.

NEAT! I like the layout, would be curious about operations.

[SpaceMouse]

Chad, is ther any way you could make the plan bigger. I have trouble with the small size of the pic.

[chadw]

Chip, I'll E-mail it to you as an attachment.  For some reason shutterfly, my photo hosting site, copresses pics and adds a border around them like a print preview.  Sometimes I post pics from my yahoo account but these seem to turn to 's after a while.

Chad

[steinjr]

Unless your entire intent was to argue over none issues, I don't see your point in posting the above reply AFTER sending me a Private Message on the same subject.

Apperantly it was more important for you to "challenge" me, as you stated in your opening sentence, than to provide a suggestion for the contest, which just goes to further my OPINONS about a growing number of persons that post on this forum.

I have replied to all the comments in your post Via Private Messege, to avoid others having to be bothered by this.

 Essensially what Steve H and Mark are arguing about seems to be due to a cultural difference.

 Steve H seem to feel that it is more important to be tactful and spare him the embarassment of having to publicly acknowledge that he were wrong, than it is for him to publicly acknowledge that a claim he made about prototypical practices was wrong.

 Mark, on the other hand, seems to feel that it is more important to correct an erronous statement about prototypical practics for steam servicing in the US midwest in the 1950s (and explain what basis he has for claiming that the statement was erronous) than it is to spare Steve H's feelings.

 Okay - you have both made your point. Time to end this part of the debate and move on.

 Stein