I've been listening to the debate about having a contest based upon an Layout Design Element. The consensus seems to be that the LDE should be a small mid-western town. On one hand, the designers want freedom to go with their ideas. On the other, the voters have asked me for more standardization so that the voting is not such a chore. So, here is my proposal open to debate before launch.
Smallville USA.
The challenge is to design a small Midwestern agricultural-based town, either real or free-lance in 1950-1955 that provides operational and visual interest. We are assuming that the layout extends in both directions and there is adequate staging and traffic to meet the needs of the small town.
The space for the layout is in the corner of a larger space and there is an obstacle. Use the space creatively. The adjoining sides of the layout are 30" deep. Nowhere should reach exceed 30" and aisle space should not drop below 30". There is only one level.
You can use any structure or landscape feature that would be found in an early 50's Midwestern town. To further standardize, this layout is in HO scale. I know you can do more in N, but his is about design ability not about the war of scales. The same challenges exist in N scale as HO.
This one will be a challenge for me because I don't know diddly about mid-western towns.
Suggestions?
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
You are missing the entire point.
A "Layout Design Element" is a key prototype feature that is critical to the design of the layout. If you want a contest that involves a "layout design element" then YOU have to to provide tha prototype data about the element, where it is, track plan, what industries are there, what commodities are shipped, how the trains work the station, etc.
You have not created a contest involving a "layout design element", you have just given a footprint and said design a small town.
If you want to make it a Layout Design Element contest, YOU give the footprint and the element that has to be designed into the layout, then the contestants have to see how well they can capture that element in their design. a critical part of the contest should be an explanation of what the designer thought was the critical takeaway from the prototype and what element of the prototype he or she was attempting to duplicate.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Well i THINK i know what you're talking about
It's kinda like what i did with my own layout
I wanted to duplicate the yard and branch line intersection at Thurmond
as a starting point for my layout
So i did the research of the actual track arangement structers ect
then built it on one 8ft by 1 foot modual
THEN tied it into the rest of the layout
But since i have no interest in a small midwest town I'll pass on this one
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
To be honest, neither do I. But, I do see the opportunity to design something that will improve my skills and be of use on a future layout design. All larger layouts have corners. And it only makes sense that a small Midwest Town can become a Colorado Mining town if you substitute the grain towers for a refinery and the produce broker for a produce distribution facility.
The fact that is is set in the Midwest should have nothing to do with the skills you develop.
dehusman wrote: A "Layout Design Element" is a key prototype feature that is critical to the design of the layout. If you want a contest that involves a "layout design element" then YOU have to to provide tha prototype data about the element, where it is, track plan, what industries are there, what commodities are shipped, how the trains work the station, etc.You have not created a contest involving a "layout design element", you have just given a footprint and said design a small town.If you want to make it a Layout Design Element contest, YOU give the footprint and the element that has to be designed into the layout, then the contestants have to see how well they can capture that element in their design. a critical part of the contest should be an explanation of what the designer thought was the critical takeaway from the prototype and what element of the prototype he or she was attempting to duplicate.
Mmm - interesting point. You are of course right in the way LDEs were originally defined.
Tony Koester defined LDE this way: "An LDE is a model of all or part of a specific yard, engine terminal, industry, junction, town or other prototype installation or scene that faithfully captures the key aesthetic and operational charateristics of that prototype"
Yet, it feels like the the name Layout Design Element is too descriptive to be limited to only scenes that are based on one specific prototype location.
What would you call a single small scene that captures key aestetical and operational features of prototype railroad railroads in a given region and era, even if it is not based on one single prototype location, but rather is a composite created by combining features from several prototype locations from the modelled region and era ?
I would be very tempted to call such a scene an LDE.
Btw, in fairness to Chip, "a small Midwestern agricultural-based town, either real or free-lance in 1950-1955 that provides operational and visual interest" does include (but is not limited to) extracting the key look and operational feel of a specific prototype location.
And I quite agree that part of a "design a realistic scene" contest would be having each designer explain why various elements was included (or not included) in the scene he or she designs.
Smile,Stein
I am having a hard time visualizing how I'm going to capture the feel of a Midwestern small town going around a 90 degree bend. Just doesn't happen in Indiana, Illinois, Kansas, and so on unless you allow a river or relocate to the hillier parts in Wisconsin, Northern Minnesota or Yuper land. The limitations on era don't do a whole lot for me, either.
Again, if you want a variety of ideas, throw it open as to location and era, and don't worry about the competition so much. If you want to compare apples to apples, more rigidly define the town and/or prototype. At present, you are at the evil mid-point. I can choose the town/area that will best fit my pre-conceived LDE, or I can choose a "generic" 1950s small town and try to design to capture that.
As Stein said, the designer write-up is going to be at least as important as the actual layout.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
concretelackey wrote:If a criteria is 30" max, then the legs of the L would max out at 21" and change to be able to reach the corner OR a curved corner back drop would be needed.
Okay
fwright wrote: I am having a hard time visualizing how I'm going to capture the feel of a Midwestern small town going around a 90 degree bend. Just doesn't happen in Indiana, Illinois, Kansas, and so on unless you allow a river or relocate to the hillier parts in Wisconsin, Northern Minnesota or Yuper land. The limitations on era don't do a whole lot for me, either.Again, if you want a variety of ideas, throw it open as to location and era, and don't worry about the competition so much. If you want to compare apples to apples, more rigidly define the town and/or prototype. At present, you are at the evil mid-point. I can choose the town/area that will best fit my pre-conceived LDE, or I can choose a "generic" 1950s small town and try to design to capture that.As Stein said, the designer write-up is going to be at least as important as the actual layout. my thoughts, your choicesFred W
The proposal was just a starting point. I'm trying to reach a compromise--(which means that everyone will be unhappy.)
More thoughts?
Personally, I'd like the 2x8 ft shelf design as an LDE(s). Open everything else (including scale), except it attaches to the rest of the layout at one or both ends. Again, the write-up is as important as the design, so others can see how you tried to meet your goals.
But that's just my preference.
I think Fred is wright. Er...well...you know what I mean. (Fred will pretend to laugh and say he hasn't heard that one before...right, Fred?)
Any-hoo....I do agree with him. If you map out a workable task element that becomes a LDE, one that really exists/existed, it has a far longer axis than it has a wide axis (neglecting the industrial footprint that the task/layout design element serves). IOW, stand at the prime turnout off a siding or off a main, whatever, and look back down into the industrial tracks as they disappear between buildings or trees. You know they go far longer to walk down than they would to walk across by the physical requirements of pushing cars servicing the industries. So, to me, a 6X6 seems an artificial boundary for something that we rarely see, save a large foresting operation of an open pit. It is more likely that we'll serve something longer in profile/footprint than something wide. Am I making any sense?
Also, for the sake of modellers everywhere, particularly in Europe where space is at a premium in most dwellings, a 2X8 seems to be a good chunk of a dream layout...a good start. Six-by is something I would consider in Chuck's garage as a part of something greater.
My two bits.
-Crandell
SpaceMouse wrote: I've been listening to the debate about having a contest based upon an Layout Design Element. The consensus seems to be that the LDE should be a small mid-western town. On one hand, the designers want freedom to go with their ideas. On the other, the voters have asked me for more standardization so that the voting is not such a chore. So, here is my proposal open to debate before launch. Smallville USA. The challenge is to design a small Midwestern agricultural-based town, either real or free-lance in 1950-1955 that provides operational and visual interest. We are assuming that the layout extends in both directions and there is adequate staging and traffic to meet the needs of the small town. The space for the layout is in the corner of a larger space and there is an obstacle. Use the space creatively. The adjoining sides of the layout are 30" deep. Nowhere should reach exceed 30" and aisle space should not drop below 30". There is only one level. You can use any structure or landscape feature that would be found in an early 50's Midwestern town. To further standardize, this layout is in HO scale. I know you can do more in N, but his is about design ability not about the war of scales. The same challenges exist in N scale as HO. This one will be a challenge for me because I don't know diddly about mid-western towns.Suggestions?
Does this mean that the entire room is to be used, but only the "given" corner will be judged? Or can you fore-see someone placing and Isle into the corner somehow? The way I understand your proposal, the shaded areas of your drawing are "assumed" areas, and not needing to be shown in full or detail?
As for the small, mid-west town idea, not my cup of tea, but OK, I guess that would be part of the challange; to design something you're not familiar with. But maybe it (the LDE) could be defined further to say that the LDE part of the small town is an industrial area consisting of:
Just some thoughts...kick'em around.
SpaceMouse wrote: I've been listening to the debate about having a contest based upon an Layout Design Element. The consensus seems to be that the LDE should be a small mid-western town. On one hand, the designers want freedom to go with their ideas. On the other, the voters have asked me for more standardization so that the voting is not such a chore. So, here is my proposal open to debate before launch. Smallville USA.
Have you seen the television series called Smallville ? I watch it regularly and have yet to see a train in it :) It is supposedly in Kansas with lots of farms. I foresee lots of prairie skyscrapers, grain loaders and hopper cars.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
I like the corner footprint as it provides more of a challenge. I think I would have preffered to pick anyplace, but having a standardization of theme makes the contest more fair. However you may get less entries by limiting their locale.
KingConrail76 wrote: But maybe it (the LDE) could be defined further to say that the LDE part of the small town is an industrial area consisting of: a grain elevator/co-opa team trackengine servicing facility-(basic; water, coal, fuel, sand)livestock rampsLCL freight warehouseone other industry-open to designer, OR a passenger station
Why an engine servicing facility? 99.999% of your "Smallvilles" wouldn't have an engine servicing facility.
You might want to specify and era too. Anything after about 1965 won't have a livestock ramp or an active LCL warehouse.
dehusman wrote: KingConrail76 wrote: But maybe it (the LDE) could be defined further to say that the LDE part of the small town is an industrial area consisting of: a grain elevator/co-opa team trackengine servicing facility-(basic; water, coal, fuel, sand)livestock rampsLCL freight warehouseone other industry-open to designer, OR a passenger stationWhy an engine servicing facility? 99.999% of your "Smallvilles" wouldn't have an engine servicing facility.You might want to specify and era too. Anything after about 1965 won't have a livestock ramp or an active LCL warehouse.Dave H.
Actually...The Era WAS specified as 1950 to 1955, and I do believe that almost ALL small towns would have some provision for watering and coaling a steam engine, even if it were only a small tank and a bin to shovel from.
Heres a thought, we have several people giving some input but so far Chip and one or two others are the only ones to define in detail the contest parameters, soooo, how about if we take a few days to chew this info other and anyone interested can submit complete detail parameters that would serve as the contest basis. At this point those submissions can be "voted most popular" and refined even more as to please the majority and still be in such a format to make compiling doable and voting uniform.
As Chip said, he is trying to comprimise (he also said doing so means no one is happy), so this method would allow others to fully interject thier entire contest concept.
just my .00002 cents
concretelackey wrote: Heres a thought, we have several people giving some input but so far Chip and one or two others are the only ones to define in detail the contest parameters, soooo, how about if we take a few days to chew this info other and anyone interested can submit complete detail parameters that would serve as the contest basis. At this point those submissions can be "voted most popular" and refined even more as to please the majority and still be in such a format to make compiling doable and voting uniform.As Chip said, he is trying to comprimise (he also said doing so means no one is happy), so this method would allow others to fully interject thier entire contest concept.just my .00002 cents
So, Chip's idea of a contest to design an LDE for a LAYOUT has now turned into a contest to see who can design the RULES of the contest??? LOL
Maybe not such a bad idea! I've read Chip's comments about the difficulties he encountered with the last contest. I don't blame him for wanting to tighten up the specs on a new contest!
Unfortunately, I can't add much to the discussion as my designing skills are virtually non-existant! I do, however, enjoy seeing the results of the contests.
My hat's off to you, Chip! It's not everyone who will stand up in a crowd with a bulls-eye painted on their chest! LOL
Darrell, quiet...for now
Not a contest per say, more of a chance for anyone interested to submit a full battery of contest parameters. Right now this thread has seen a bit of "I'd like this or that" but only for certain aspects of the contest. Perhaps this suggestion would do 2 things.....1- maybe more people would realize the challenge Chip faces and 2- it would place more complete package options on the table for consideration.
Then again, maybe doing this would confuse things even more?
KingConrail76 wrote:Actually...The Era WAS specified as 1950 to 1955,
Sorry I missed that.
and I do believe that almost ALL small towns would have some provision for watering and coaling a steam engine, even if it were only a small tank and a bin to shovel from.
I would have to disagree. I have condensed profiles of the MP Gulf Coast Lines and the International Great Northern (MP in south & east Texas) from the 1930's and on both there is a fuel station about every 100 miles at the major terminals, and water stations are about every 15-25 miles, about every 3rd to 5th small town. About every other, every third station would have a stock pen and about the same number would have a loading dock /team track or, being Texas, a cotton dock.
dehusman wrote: KingConrail76 wrote:Actually...The Era WAS specified as 1950 to 1955,Sorry I missed that. and I do believe that almost ALL small towns would have some provision for watering and coaling a steam engine, even if it were only a small tank and a bin to shovel from.I would have to disagree. I have condensed profiles of the MP Gulf Coast Lines and the International Great Northern (MP in south & east Texas) from the 1930's and on both there is a fuel station about every 100 miles at the major terminals, and water stations are about every 15-25 miles, about every 3rd to 5th small town. About every other, every third station would have a stock pen and about the same number would have a loading dock /team track or, being Texas, a cotton dock. Dave H.
I don't like cluttering this thread with debate, but I didn't think it appropriate to Email you directly either, so I'll give a brief explanation of my suggestions. Maybe it will give someone some ideas.
I had suggested a small industrial area of a small midwestern town with several industries and a small service area on the premise that a small (0-4-0, or 0-6-0) Loco may be assigned to the town for switching or short branchline work, thus giving the additional opportunity to include such service facilities.
You may be wholely correct on the Prototypical placement of such facilities, but I was just trying to make a suggestion of something that could be modeled in the given 6' x 6' corner space that would be challenging and operationally interesting.
concretelackey wrote:- it would place more complete package options on the table for consideration.
Texas Zepher wrote: concretelackey wrote:- it would place more complete package options on the table for consideration.I think several people would be willing to do that, but to me it feels like I would be sort of like taking over SpaceMouse's ummm, ummm, can't think of the word. It's Spacemouse's deal, so I figure if he wants that level of participation from us he will ask.
Point taken....my apoligys to Chip
marknewton wrote:I like the idea of a 2' x 8' LDE based on a PROTOTYPE location of some sort. A small Midwestern town would be fine by me, but not one with a heap of features added that aren't typical of such places in reality. Suggestions like adding loco facilities serving branchline 0-4-0s do nothing for me, as they are purely model railroad concepts. My preferences and biases are entirely towards proto-modelling, because I can't see what benefit there is in re-inventing the wheel.My 2c worth,Mark.
Chip,
I truely sympathize with your situation (in trying to please everyone and pleasing noone in the end) as I can see now just how opinionated, and closed minded people can be. And as I never ment to presume that I had any say what-so-ever, and only tried to be helpful by making suggestions, I'll step out of this discussion and steer clear of the rest of the debate/discussion. Good luck with your endevor, you've got more patiance than I.
With that being said...
Mark,
As I am from the East Coast of the United States of America, I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, an expert on the MidWest region. I do however know that the US Prototype DID assign motive power to small towns with enough switching to justify it, and said motive power would need to consume coal and water to produce power. Your suggestion that these items are "purely Model Railroad concepts" is astonishingly uneducated. As for the "heap of features added that aren't typical of such places in reality", where and how do Farmers ship and receive their Goods? Where and how do small Manufactures ship and receive their Goods?
I believe the OP clearly stated... "The challenge is to design a small Midwestern agricultural-based town, either real or free-lance in 1950-1955 that provides operational and visual interest. We are assuming that the layout extends in both directions and there is adequate staging and traffic to meet the needs of the small town."
It was clear to me when I read the above quote from Chip's OP that he was implying that though the town was small, it generated and receive a good amount of Rail traffic. That being the case, this would be a central point where surrounding farmers would have a Co-Op grain elevator, there would be a Team track for receiving such items as new Tractors or Implements (being in the "boom" of the mid 50's, farmers would prosper like the rest of the Nation). There would have to be atleast ONE other business large enough to support a population, (not all people in the midwest Farm) and to generate and receive the amount of traffic refered to in the OP. And being such a small town that it would have a large volume of Rail traffic, it is also likely that PROTOTYPICALLY there would be a water tower and a pile of coal SOMEWHERE around town to rewater and refuel the Locos moving those trains. Not to mention being visually and operationally interesting. I guess a single track mainline passing through (with no stops) a quaint little village is what you consider interesting.
But in the end Mark, it was just a suggestion that I made. One that you can embrace, or ignore. I am not in charge of this contest, and I will not be the one to decide what ideas are usable or not. I simply made a suggestion.
I saw you "agreed" with someone elses suggestion, and you "disagreed" with mine, but Mark...What is your suggestion? I'm sure Australian PROTOTYPE differs from U.S. Prototype, so I don't expect you to be an expert on the United States Mid-West region either, but maybe you could still add something creative for Chip to mull over.
Steve H --
Relax. Only thing Mark (and Dave H) said was that having an engine support facility w/coaling, sand, enginehouse etc facilities would be too much for a (proto)typical small agricultural town.
Hence requiring (or recommending) such engine support features in the layouts would pull the designed layouts away from being prototype-based.
That is raising a fair point, not a personal attack on you.
Okay - I don't have any really strong feelings on prototypical vs freelanced. Chip's original suggestion ("real or freelanded") was fine by me. Then those who wants real do real, those who wants freelanced do freelanded.
Summarized: 2x8 shelf for size, H0 (N scalers can do the same in 1x4 if they want - we all know that N is half the size of H0), assume that layout it is just one "scene" in a larger railroad (hence no need for staging etc), theme is midwestern small agricultural town between 1950 and 1955, and participants can decide for themselves if they want to stay close to prototype - then the people judging can decide for themselves whether to reward things being prototypical or not.
Oh - and participants will have to describe _why_ they designed their layout/scene the way they did.
What say ye ?
Grin, Stein
SpaceMouse wrote: Smallville USA. The challenge is to design a small Midwestern agricultural-based town, either real or free-lance in 1950-1955 that provides operational and visual interest. We are assuming that the layout extends in both directions and there is adequate staging and traffic to meet the needs of the small town.
The Old Dog would suggest thatb the word "midwestern" be deleted. As "Texas Zepher" said in another thread;
Texas Zepher wrote: ... does it really matter if it is a specific reagion. There have to be "typical" agricultrual communities all across the country and across the ocean too.
... does it really matter if it is a specific reagion. There have to be "typical" agricultrual communities all across the country and across the ocean too.
Allowing any agricultual region might create additional interest. A eastern dairy theme could be interesting and provide a home for some milk reefers. The flat midwest scenery might be difficult to "pull off". Also, some aspects of the grain elevator operation might be hard to capture since detached cars were often moved without the use of an engine.
SpaceMouse wrote: The space for the layout is in the corner of a larger space and there is an obstacle. Use the space creatively. The adjoining sides of the layout are 30" deep. Nowhere should reach exceed 30" and aisle space should not drop below 30". There is only one level.
The 2' by 8' might have greater interest and be usable by more modelers.
SpaceMouse wrote: You can use any structure or landscape feature that would be found in an early 50's Midwestern town. To further standardize, this layout is in HO scale. I know you can do more in N, but his is about design ability not about the war of scales. The same challenges exist in N scale as HO.
Specifying the "early 50's" might not be a good choice. By that time most of the passenger operation would be gone greatly reducing the operational interest of the LDE.
Have fun