I have a dilemma. One of the contest entrants created a great layout plan and looks to win best N Scale and possibly best overall. However, the plan is drawn with a room size of 12 x 12. I looked at the plan and tried to rationalize that it could be cut down, but it can't without without radically altering the plan. It is not fair to the other entrants. The extra space makes a lot of difference. But I don't think it was done intentionally.
To make matters worse, several other entrants also, missed some of the rules. So to be fair, if we disqualified one, we should disqualify all that did not follow the rules.
And the truth is, all the layouts entered have merit. When you take the time to study the layout concepts, there are some really good designs.
To complicate matters more, if the layout is disqualified, my layout stands to win N scale. The fact that I bring this up is uncomfortable.
I see three options:
Let the contest stand.
Let the contest stand and disqualify only those that stand to win something.
Disqualify all those layouts that didn't follow the rules now before the votes are counted.
None of the options are good. What do you guys think?
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Speaking as a neutral party interested in the outcome but not himself competing -- how about a special prize for "best submission that nonetheless violated the rules and was disqualified" -- with all disqualified entrants competing against each other rather than try to separate them into catagories or degrees of violation?
Sort of the model railroad equivalent of Miss Congeniality at the Miss America contest .....
Dave Nelson
See that's why I didn't enter the contest. My room is 12 X 10 not 10 X 12! I knew there would be issues with the rules.
One way out of the dilemma would be to adopt an Olympic attitude and just pick your own layout as the winner...
J/K All foolishness aside. If you have rules you either have to enforce them or they become a farce and the contest becomes a farce and by association...well you get the point. If some entrants missed or did not follow the rules what choice do you have? At least there is no grand prize or worldwide recognition at stake.
Anyone who is in violation of the rules must be disqualified before the votes are counted. You don't want this to turn into another Florida do you?
My take on the question...
Seemingly , but pertinent - there is an on-line article comparing battleships. Some were built in compliance with the Washington Naval Limitation treaties, some weren't. The 'judge' therefore rated them, first all together and then all that complied (Leaving out the three that didn't.) You might consider that idea.
Just my . Other opinions will differ.
Since most of these layouts were drawn on CAD, changes on CAD can be made fairly fast, so give them a chance to revise their layouts to meet the criteria, if they can demonstrate that revised layouts fit the rules as posted them let them stand, but if they refuse or cannot ( I dont see how) then they should be considered for disqualification, I mean Jeez guys, the limits and restraints on this competition were microscopic, room size and a door. How hard is that?
Have fun with your trains
SM:
Just let it stand for now. After all, this is only a contest for bragging rights, and as you say most of the layouts have some issue or other. A certain nameless person mirror-flopped his room, some don't allow space for the door swing. Besides, a lot of this stuff might have been caught if the contest wasn't around Christmas (hectic for lots of us) and computer meltdowns hadn't occurred.
The S & PF is a great layout anyway, and I'd hate to see any of them dq'd this time. We can get a little more strict with the rules next time - maybe remind the submitters of the rules if they happen to miss some, so they can make corrections.
12x12 represents a 20% increase in space. It's not inconsequential. Include it for people to see, but exclude it from the standings.
Enjoy
Paul
Do you want to extol the virtues of a non-compliant entry, or encourage participation and recognition for those who managed to stay within bounds...as they were meant to?
Edit- add...apart from your own assessment given to this one entry, is it not conceivable that its stature in your mind was afforded by its inclusion of space that it was not to have?
Either way the question is asked...................
The room is obviously on steroids! Disqualify it, get the Supreme Court involved and ban it from the Layout Hall of Fame for life!
Seriously, rooms too big. It wouldn't be fair to the folks that followed the rules. Tweaking by the contest moderator wouldn't be fair either.
Edit-That's 24 extra square feet! That alone is bigger than many N scale laouts!
For whatever it is worth, my opinion is : just leave ut in.
I voted for it, fully aware of the fact that it was 12x12 instead of 10x12. Voter ahead of me commented that it was 12x12, too. It is a nice bedroom layout, even though it is for a bigger bedroom (24 square foot bigger than the contest).
After all - it doesn't cost actually anyone anything to "lose" (as in "not get the most votes") in this contest.
Next time, if we want to avoid such controversies, just enforce whatever rules are agreed upon when receiving submissions, before they are posted.
And maybe simplify voting instructions - seems like people are voting in all kinds of ways.
What I am looking forward to is not so much the voting as the discussion/analysis of layouts after the voting is over.
Anyways - good job with the web pages, Chip!
Grin, Stein
loathar wrote: That's 24 extra square feet! That alone is bigger than many N scale laouts!
That's 24 extra square feet! That alone is bigger than many N scale laouts!
l:
Yes, you could build a delightful little three-ring flea circus and midway in that space. Would be quite a nice little scene.
I say leave it be at this point. It is one thing to notice it before it was posted for the general public to vote. But at this point I would leave it alone. Plus then we can have an excuse when we don't win.
I would have won if it wasn't for the @@#$ layout that was too big/door in the wrong place/ etc.
Chris
Lancaster, CA
Check out my railroad at: Buffalo and Southwestern
Photos at:Flicker account
YouTube:StellarMRR YouTube account
But is it fair to those who made the effort to stay within the confines of the contest to leave entries that clearly defied even the most minimal criteria?
This is why I asked Chip for a post voting deconstruction of the various esigns.
I would like to hear from the designers why they did what they did, was it an oversite or a direct blowoff to the rules? Did they have a 12x12 room at home and this was a design tool for planning for it? If so I might be more inclined to let it slide, but I think that is important to determine the root cause.
I personally didn't consider the 12 x 12 for voting because it was clearly oversized, nor the ones that I could not determine where the access door was.
It's not a simple solution like Autobus's layout where a simple mirroring of the plan resolves the issue or the layout that clearly states in its description that the door has been simply removed from its hinges, the opening itself remains in the correct place leaving a rather long duckunder, but thats the designers choice. These layouts are still within the assigned footprint and its clear where the door is.
As someone in the design/construcion biz, to go outside of that footprint the designer had pretty darn well have a good reason for doing. If I have a bedroom I want to remodel and a $10K budget and the designer comes back with a proposal to add 24 sq.ft. and add $20K to the budget, it had better be a really really darn good plan he's pitching. Otherwise it's take a walk. Sorry but thats the real world.
So I'd like to hear from the designers, why?
A lot of the responsibility is mine as well. If I had not been so far behind, I wouldn't have let the layouts slide by. As it was, I was in so much of a hurry, I just wanted to get it done before another titmouse appeared.
Rules are rules. Without them, it's not much of a contest. Since you are also a contestant and would feel uncomfortable if you won, I would turn the decision over to a well respected person or, even better, panel of forum members and let them make the decision. Their decision would be final.
Chip - since this was just for some 'serious' fun, I would agree with your thoughts here: one tally for overall regardless and one for just those that complied with room specs,etc. There are lots of good ideas in the entire collection of entries no matter if the author followed the 'rules' or not.
Charles
Leave em be. There was a great deal of ballast weighting these plans, labor put in and the contest should stand.
Let us weigh the plans based on thier offerings and leave off the battleship size and weight. Some are heavier, others fatter and a couple have glass jaws.
The only fair thing to EVERYONE is to disqualify any plan that does not meet the rules.
Otherwise there is no point in making rules.
I'm sure the compliant entries would have been better or at least different if they had used that extra space.
Picture a football team being allowed to keep a victory even though they played 12 men because, after all, they did score the most points............
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Afterthought:
How about another contest with a 12x12 room size. After all, you already have one entry.
Ha ha! Thats a good idea!, I was going to suggest a Microlayout competition but instead, how about an Unlimited Class competition! No holds barred! I got a schematic 40'x40' retairement layout sketched out somewhere...
SpaceMouse wrote: A lot of the responsibility is mine as well. If I had not been so far behind, I wouldn't have let the layouts slide by. As it was, I was in so much of a hurry, I just wanted to get it done before another titmouse appeared.
Did someone say Titmouse?
By definition, a dilemma is a forced choice between two or more mutually exclusive options where the implementation of either will create a detriment/harm.
I don't see this as a forced choice, one could argue that there could be harm either way, as well as argue that the two are mutually exclusive. It all comes down to the rules. Were they only guidelines after all, in which case greater variation should have been evident in the various entries. But, there is not that range, and precisely because it was not meant to give them so much leeway....the rules were there to force every contestant into a sandardized format so that a comparison of the results could be carried out evenly and fairly.
You can't fairly alter the rules to suit an entry, or entries, that have not complied with the confines that the majority agreed to abide by when they generated their own plans. How can you judge any of the entries on its own merits when the entire process has been reduced to one of complete arbitrariness?
And on a strictly utilitarian basis in ethics, will you generate enough goodwill thereby to encourage participation in any further contests unless you leave them rule-free from now on? Once bitten, twice shy...so to speak.
It is only a dilemma in your head, Mouse. It is as clear as a ringing bell to me.
selector wrote: It is only a dilemma in your head, Mouse. It is as clear as a ringing bell to me.
I guess I should adopt this symbol from now on
vsmith wrote: Ha ha! Thats a good idea!, I was going to suggest a Microlayout competition but instead, how about an Unlimited Class competition! No holds barred! I got a schematic 40'x40' retairement layout sketched out somewhere...
Great ideal!
The Old Dog would love to see a competition based on "If I won the lottery"
Have fun
The contest could be recurring:
One time with a size limit. One time with a dollar limit. One time with a portability limit.
Then, occasionally have a themed contest. Passenger. Traction. Mining. Logging. High speed.
... and every once in a while the If cost was no object and my favorite uncle died and left me a warehouse .......
How about best layout designed by a person younger than 16.
How about best layout designed FOR a person younger than 10.
Is there money involved? Otherwise, I'd say forget about it.
As I view the various entrants there are several designs that look good on paper, but don't make sense in reality. One N-scale layout in particular appears to have 6-inch wide walkways around two of it's perimeters, which also just happen to hold staging yards. I don't know about you, but if I tried to fit through that spot I'd shortly need the services of the Jaws-of-Life. (And in the interest of full disclosure, I do have an an entry in that category.)
Hopefully our judges are smart enough to spot these discrepancies and take them in account when they vote. However as an aid, perhaps you could post a banner on the page of any layout that is not in strict compliance with the rules, indicating how exactly the designer deviated from the rules.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
My thoughts....just call this current contest "the best in show". Since the stated room size/door location/door functionability guidelines were overlooked I'd say we vote for the best overall entry AS IS. Any future competions can be clearly outlined as far as the room requirements and each entrant would need to ask themselves if they met each one.
As far as PV's suggestions on a theme based contest, if you were to state a set dollar minimum/maximum then all entrants should be required to submit prices for the items they used. This could become an accounting nightmare.