Contest Entrants: A dilemma

[SpaceMouse]

Man, I guess I got that wrong. I looked all over for a scale on the submission info and just guessed wrong. That screws up the voting even more. Oh well. I have some more instructions up front for next time.

[Phoebe Vet]

Not the plan ... Construction photos ...

[stebbycentral]

Must have been distracted by my Daytona Breach and Bikini Central plan I was working on!

Please feel free to post a copy of that plan...

[Dan M]

Since I just noticed that the one I submitted is my 12 x 12, remove it since I did not make the adjustments to the room size. I had just designed that basic layout for a co-worker to fit a 12x 12 area and forgot about the 12 x 10 or 10 x 12 room size. As the creator of the track plan, scap the submission and let the best one win, with in the guidlines of the rules supplied.

There, no more dilemmam to ponder.

Must have been distracted by my Daytona Breach and Bikini Central plan I was working on!

Sfdsmokeeater

Oh Yeah, I thought I designed it for HO Scale.

[Texas Zepher]

how about an Unlimited Class competition!

Great ideal!  ...would love to see a competition based on "If I won the lottery"

The problem with that is not in the designing but in the judging.  The more constraints and limitations that are put on the design, the greater the creativity of the author has to be and the easier they are to judge.   Yeah, I know a lot of people just look over them and choose the first one that flips their trigger, but the more unlimited things are the more all judges lean toward that philosophy.  It is way too difficult to analyze large layouts sufficently to properly judge them with any sort of logical rational for the judgement.

[Autobus Prime]

The Old Dog's manifesto on layout design

<snip>

xPD:

"I bring you these nineteen..." *smash and a half* "....Oy.  These ten commandments."

Folks: I'm going to have to agree with whoever stated the S & PF looks like HO scale, at least partly.  The tracks appear to be on 2" centers, and the 24" radius is really broad for N.  Maybe it's TT.

 

[exPalaceDog]

The Old Dog's manifesto on layout design

 

• 01) First, and perhaps most important, model railroading is a hobby. Building and operating a layout should be an exercise in relaxation, not stress management.
• 02) The layout must be small enough for the owner to maintain and operate alone, but maybe provide "interesting" operation for any additional operators who happen to be available. Note that "too large" is as much a measure of complexity as brute size.
• 03) Even the best layout design will fail if it is built in an undesirable space. Also note that making any needed improvements will probably be a good deal easier if it is done before the bench work is started.
• 04) A layout should be built in sections or modules that are small enough to be easily removed from and/or inserted into the layout and taken to the work bench by one person.
• 05) A layout design should hide the unrealistic aspects of a layout such as overly sharp curves and steep grades from view yet allow them to be accessed easily when required.
• 06) A layout design should insure that any track that will see any use can be easily accessed. This probably means that the reach needs to be limited to about two feet.
• 07) A layout design should allow for adequate aisle space for the operators.
• 08) A layout design should allow each operator (engineer) to follow their train without the need to back track.
• 09) A layout design should avoid "duckunders" if possible.
• 10) Lift outs and swing gates tend to be maintenance "headaches".
• 11) A layout design must allow adequate track length to connect the levels with reasonable grades, say not over four percent.
• 12) A layout design must allow for the curves to be wide enough for the equipment the user intends to operate.
• 13) A layout needs to provide adequate storage for "staged" trains.
• 14) The "staging" should be connected to the rest of the layout in a manner to allow the "staged" trains (actors) to enter from either direction probably using a wye.
• 15) On the other hand, staging must also be provided for "one way" actors such as the "coal drag".
• 16) A layout should avoid built in switching problems. One can always increase the difficulty by parking motor vehicles or RR cars in the wrong places
• 17) At least two interchange tracks are desirable to allow "bridge" traffic
• 18) The Old Dog must question if specialized roads such as logging lines can meet that goal. Hauling logs to the pool must get old. On the other hand, the equipment like geared engines certainly is "interesting"
• 19) If possible, a layout design should allow for some continuous running.

[marknewton]

I'm sitting on the fence at the moment...

Vic made valid points about the rules. I largely agree with him, BUT

I also think that Steins views make sense, SO

I think Chuck's suggestion is perhaps the best way to resolve the problem.

(Of course, I'll go with whatever you decide to do... and hopefully I followed the rules??? )

All the best,

Mark.

[vsmith]

For example, the Old Hound would reccommend that no turnout be further then say 30" from an aisle or access openning. Many of the submissions appear to have major access problems that would probably result in their early demise.

Have fun

Yep, I noticed that too, some had big reach issues, need 5' long arms on a couple...

[vsmith]

I got a schematic 40'x40' retairement layout sketched out somewhere...

Doesn't everyone?   Mine is AT&SF Raton Pass from Trinidad to Raton.  I did it in 1970 for my "final" in 7th grade drafting class.

Los Angeles, 1940, ATSF, UP, SP, LARR and PE RRs, Downtown, Harbor, San Bernardino, Fullerton, Pasadena, even Santa Barbara are all included to one degree or another

[exPalaceDog]

First, to get back to the original question, if a submission violates the "rules", the Old Dog would suggest adding a text box next to the submission, quoting the "rule" that was violated. The voters then should be free to access what penality they feel is appropriate while voting.

Second, for the next contest, the Old Mutt would suggest that all the "rules" be placed in one post. Perhaps the "rules" could be passed by several reviewers by e-mail before posting to try to eliminate any ambiguities or confusion.

Third, one item that should be included in the rules are some standard for access to allow for construction, maintenance, and operation. For example, the Old Hound would reccommend that no turnout be further then say 30" from an aisle or access openning. Many of the submissions appear to have major access problems that would probably result in their early demise.

Have fun

 

[Texas Zepher]

I got a schematic 40'x40' retairement layout sketched out somewhere...

Doesn't everyone?   Mine is AT&SF Raton Pass from Trinidad to Raton.  I did it in 1970 for my "final" in 7th grade drafting class.

[Autobus Prime]

Folks:

Somebody up there ^ mentioned a shelf layout for the next contest.  That would be cool.  I think it would be best to start with a table size for one of those...maybe 24" x 96". 

I really like the "pick a theme" feature that is being used in the current competition.

If we were to do a "shoot the moon" contest at some time, I think we'd need a lot more time for the design-submission stage.  I'm not sure if I'd submit an entry; my designs tend to be small or medium-sized. I probably would.

[tomikawaTT]

My thoughts....just call this current contest "the best in show". Since the stated room size/door location/door functionability guidelines were overlooked I'd say we vote for the best overall entry AS IS. Any future competions can be clearly outlined as far as the room requirements and each entrant would need to ask themselves if they met each one.

As far as PV's suggestions on a theme based contest, if you were to state a set dollar minimum/maximum then all entrants should be required to submit prices for the items they used. This could become an accounting nightmare.

I would LOVE a contest based on $ investment!  With my semi-vast stock of stuff bought with 1960s dollars, my preference for (CHEAP!!!) hand-laid specialwork, my use of DC rather than DCC (most of my locomotives originally cost less than the decoders I'd need to convert them to DCC!) and other cheap frugal building practices, I could fill a garage or small barn for what most of my competitors would need for the present 10x12 designs.  (Does that make you think it's a not-so-smart idea?  I do, even with my hypothetical advantage.)

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[concretelackey]

My thoughts....just call this current contest "the best in show". Since the stated room size/door location/door functionability guidelines were overlooked I'd say we vote for the best overall entry AS IS. Any future competions can be clearly outlined as far as the room requirements and each entrant would need to ask themselves if they met each one.

As far as PV's suggestions on a theme based contest, if you were to state a set dollar minimum/maximum then all entrants should be required to submit prices for the items they used. This could become an accounting nightmare.

[stebbycentral]

Is there money involved?  Otherwise, I'd say forget about it. 

As I view the various entrants there are several designs that look good on paper, but don't make sense in reality.  One N-scale layout in particular appears to have 6-inch wide walkways around two of it's perimeters, which also just happen to hold staging yards.  I don't know about you, but if I tried to fit through that spot I'd shortly need the services of the Jaws-of-Life.  (And in the interest of full disclosure, I do have an an entry in that category.)

Hopefully our judges are smart enough to spot these discrepancies and take them in account when they vote.   However as an aid, perhaps you could post a banner on the page of any layout that is not in strict compliance with the rules, indicating how exactly the designer deviated from the rules. 

 

 

[Phoebe Vet]

The contest could be recurring:

One time with a size limit.  One time with a dollar limit.  One time with a portability limit.

Then, occasionally have a themed contest.  Passenger.  Traction.  Mining.  Logging.  High speed.

... and every once in a while the If cost was no object and my favorite uncle died and left me a warehouse .......

How about best layout designed by a person younger than 16.

How about best layout designed FOR a person younger than 10.

[exPalaceDog]

Ha ha! Thats a good idea!, I was going to suggest a Microlayout competition but instead, how about an Unlimited Class competition! No holds barred! I got a schematic 40'x40' retairement layout sketched out somewhere...

Great ideal!

The Old Dog would love to see a competition based on "If I won the lottery"

Have fun

 

[selector]

I guess I should adopt this symbol from now on

[SpaceMouse]

It is only a dilemma in your head, Mouse.  It is as clear as a ringing bell to me.

[selector]

By definition, a dilemma is a forced choice between two or more mutually exclusive options where the implementation of either will create a detriment/harm.

I don't see this as a forced choice, one could argue that there could be harm either way, as well as argue that the two are mutually exclusive.  It all comes down to the rules.  Were they only guidelines after all, in which case greater variation should have been evident in the various entries.  But, there is not that range, and precisely because it was not meant to give them so much leeway....the rules were there to force every contestant into a sandardized format so that a comparison of the results could be carried out evenly and fairly.

You can't fairly alter the rules to suit an entry, or entries, that have not complied with the confines that the majority agreed to abide by when they generated their own plans.  How can you judge any of the entries on its own merits when the entire process has been reduced to one of complete arbitrariness?

And on a strictly utilitarian basis in ethics, will you generate enough goodwill thereby to encourage participation in any further contests unless you leave them rule-free from now on?  Once bitten, twice shy...so to speak.

It is only a dilemma in your head, Mouse.  It is as clear as a ringing bell to me.

[vsmith]

A lot of the responsibility is mine as well. If I had not been so far behind, I wouldn't have let the layouts slide by. As it was, I was in so much of a hurry, I just wanted to get it done before another titmouse appeared.

Did someone say Titmouse?

[vsmith]

Ha ha! Thats a good idea!, I was going to suggest a Microlayout competition but instead, how about an Unlimited Class competition! No holds barred! I got a schematic 40'x40' retairement layout sketched out somewhere...

[Phoebe Vet]

Afterthought:

How about another contest with a 12x12 room size.  After all, you already have one entry.

[Phoebe Vet]

The only fair thing to EVERYONE is to disqualify any plan that does not meet the rules.

Otherwise there is no point in making rules.

I'm sure the compliant entries would have been better or at least different if they had used that extra space.

Picture a football team being allowed to keep a victory even though they played 12 men because, after all, they did score the most points............

[Anonymous]

Leave em be. There was a great deal of ballast weighting these plans, labor put in and the contest should stand.

Let us weigh the plans based on thier offerings and leave off the battleship size and weight. Some are heavier, others fatter and a couple have glass jaws.

[wmshay06]

Chip -  since this was just for some 'serious' fun, I would agree with your thoughts here: one tally for overall regardless and one for just those that complied with room specs,etc.  There are lots of good ideas in the entire collection of entries no matter if the author followed the 'rules' or not.

 

Charles

 

[Mudbug1001]

Rules are rules.  Without them, it's not much of a contest.  Since you are also a contestant and would feel uncomfortable if you won, I would turn the decision over to a well respected person or, even better, panel of forum members and let them make the decision.  Their decision would be final.

[SpaceMouse]

A lot of the responsibility is mine as well. If I had not been so far behind, I wouldn't have let the layouts slide by. As it was, I was in so much of a hurry, I just wanted to get it done before another titmouse appeared.