down grade limit for g scale LGB

[Anonymous]

I'm brand new to the hobby. Don't even have an engine yet (but got a caboose..how's that for putting the cart b4 the horse. I'm going to construct a garden railroad. I'm wondering about downgrade limits. From what I gather a 3% upgrade is roughly what works well. How about downgrade limits? If I always run the train in the same direction, can I go with a steeper downgrade than 3%? What are the limitations in this regard? Thanks for the help..hope it's not too stupid a question.

[Anonymous]

Hello mcnamarajohn and welcome to the forum.In my garden I have done this.I'm afraid I can't tell you the gradient until the weekend as it's dark when I return from work.
Gradients are a fickle subject.If you run a short train or have a large ,heavy powerful train it can handle quite steep gradients.When I laid my track,each section was tested with the 'weakest 'loco.
I would suggest getting a test loco when laying track.There are a lot of pitfalls out there.You don't want to lay it all and then find the loco won't run.
Troy

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by troybetts

Hello mcnamarajohn and welcome to the forum.In my garden I have done this.I'm afraid I can't tell you the gradient until the weekend as it's dark when I return from work.
Gradients are a fickle subject.If you run a short train or have a large ,heavy powerful train it can handle quite steep gradients.When I laid my track,each section was tested with the 'weakest 'loco.
I would suggest getting a test loco when laying track.There are a lot of pitfalls out there.You don't want to lay it all and then find the loco won't run.
Troy

Outstanding tip, Troy! I plan to have as level a grade as possible; being that I am a teacher, and...eh-hem...grading is what I to best![:p]

I am running some experiements with different ballast and methods of gradings, I plan to build up a significant roadbed that will be firm and stable and resistant to the effects of weathering and shifting soil.

I do have a question for the consortium 'though...

How often is roadbed maintenace an issue on your line? Is it a constant battle? Mounting track on a syntetic roadbed, like some of the planks and platform road bed (terminology issue?)?

[powlee]

[#welcome]mcnamarajohn
Capt, I doubt if you suffer the wet climate we do. When I built my 00 many years ago, for a quick solution, I laid treated 4 x 2 timber screwed to sunken blocks. Eventually the timber rotted so I replaced it with concrete, same width but deeper. In the 5 years since it was put down, there has been no movement. Now my G scale runs over the same bed.
Recent additional bedding I have laid, I allowed the concrete to almost set then pushed the track onto it. This then find its own level.
All the best Ian P

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mcnamarajohn

From what I gather a 3% upgrade is roughly what works well. How about downgrade limits? If I always run the train in the same direction, can I go with a steeper downgrade than 3%?

[#welcome] Mcnamarajohn.

You are right that if you plan on running your trains only in one direction you can have a steeper grade on the 'downhill' section.

In theory there is no such thing as a steepest downhill grade, however consider this: Just as a train slows as it goes up the hill, it will speed up coming down.
So your nice realistic speed train going uphill becomes a slot car set coming down the hill, and then if their is a curve at the bottom ... [:0][}:)]

There are controllers you can buy that will keep the train running at constant speed regardless of grade, but they are not cheap.

So if you've got a small layout and the train takes 1min to do a loop, every 30 sec you are going to have to be speeding it up or slowing it down to keep it under control.
Some people like that and call it operation. But after 10 laps it gets tedious and you can't just let it run while you pop inside for a pit stop. Of course if your layout is massive and it takes 10mins to do a loop, then it's probably not going to be a problem for you.

My first layout was all flat. You could let the train run while you cooked the BBQ. My new one has bridge with a 4%grade on one side and 2% on the other (much like what you are asking). Sorry I haven't done enough to run a test train yet, but I've done so much on it now, that I'm committed to it, so I sure hope it works!

Glen.

[Marty Cozad]

John, welcome to the forum.
Let me say that is not a dumb question. matter of fact I don't recall any one ever asking about grades,,,down hill. usually its uphill.
The answer would be based on how heavy or long the trains are and how tight of a curve would be at the bottom, if any.
GOOD Q.

[Anonymous]

marty, glen, troy...thanks for the tips...sounds like if i've got enuf straight track at the bottom of the down grade, which I do, I can let her fly...cats be damned..gonna let the big dog eat..that will make the layout much easier to engineer...only have to worry about getting the train to the top of the mountain...it's all down hill from there..thanks again for helping this novice along.

[Anonymous]

Can you put on traction tires?

My diagram shows 2 main lines and you have 2 trains one heading east on one track and other heading west so I do have to keep the grades down to what spec.s as in a real railway.

[Gary Crawley]

Hi mcnamarajohn
[#welcome]
I have 3% upgrades and 5% down and to keep a constant speed up and down I use LocoLinc radio control which uses back EMF (cruise control)
It works great and would recommend it to anyone.
I use batteries but you can also use track power or both.
All the best in our great hobby.
Regards
Gary

[Anonymous]

Hi macnamarajohn
[#welcome]
The question of grades is a tricky one.
If you plan on using live steam locomotives than as slight as possable is the answer just like the 12" =1' they don't like them add a curve on the grade and things can get real interesting real fast.
Iwould sugest kee ing grades as gentle as possable
Also avoid runing the train the same way all the time this introduces a wear problem on one side of the train and a few "S" bends can help with that.
All the problems on the full sized railways are the same for us in the garden.
regards John

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Gary Crawley

Hi mcnamarajohn
[#welcome]
I have 3% upgrades and 5% down and to keep a constant speed up and down I use LocoLinc radio control which uses back EMF (cruise control)
It works great and would recommend it to anyone.
I use batteries but you can also use track power or both.
All the best in our great hobby.
Regards
Gary

Garry
I think I would get sick on riding your rails[:D] 3....5555....3333....44...5555...333....1111...2.1..1...2.33444.....555.3231 oh my head, I am sick [xx(]

[Anonymous]

Hi Captain Carrales
For me track maint is an ongoing thing but then I have a track bed that can move with the soil.
The soil my line is built on its like concrete in summer and turns into goo in winter and heaves a bit when just wet. so any rigid stucure for me would be OTT price wise or too flimsy to cope with the clay movement
So once a year I have to top up ballast and keep an eye on things during the operating season.
Look at the soil type on your domestic empire before settling on a constuction method it will save some heart burn later.
Hopefully eventualy the movement on my line will be nothing but till then I deal with the movement once or twice a year its the price I pay to have a garden railway
regards John

[Anonymous]

How about camber on the curves..can you tilt the track to offset inertia on a tricky part of the uncontrolled downhill grade (if you're stupid enuf to try this)...from what i've heard so far, it sounds like the train freewheels (no engine breaking) after a certain grade % is exceeded? I guess the question is basically about camber..is this a no no? I don't know enough about real railroads to know..my memory tells me the tracks are usually on the same horizontal plane. Thanks in advance to all you responders...i'm loving the forum and the new hobby..keeping me awake at night working out a game plan!!![:D]

[Anonymous]

Well you have come to the right place to talk about camber, i have had camber problems as i assemble my own rails but your question about can I have a slope on the curves; well that really should be, may I. With discreet sections of track it is hard to do anything with it as far as camber is concerned, it can be done mind you but you will be misusing the rail assemblies in so doing. I have written quite a bit about this subject several times in previous forays on the forum, you may find reference to them in the archives.

As far as gradient is concerned this is not all that tricky, I have made my own device to measure them using a standard spirit level. But from what i have experienced up to 3 % is ok and most engines that I have will pull a fair sized train up 4 % and sometimes 5 % even but the look is so unrealistic I wouldn't recommend doing it, works ok but looks very funny. I have had to go to 4% a lot, with lots of curves through lack of space.

What the trouble is, is traction in the loco my little Stainz pulls 5 little carriages all the time but when you get to a 4 % gradient it will not do so, the loco loses traction and the drive wheels slip. it will just handle 4 and 3 carriages is very nice and this is why I am going to steel wheels with ball bearing on all my small carriages.

My big Mallet will pull 3 big carriages anywhere plus 4 litres of white wine; so it is different all the time and that is what is so good about this pasttime.

I do not agree with my fellow forummers about having different guages for up and down, you may only go one way at the moment but one day you may get sick of this and wi***o go the other way (i have) so what goes up must come down.


Reards



ian

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ian...very complete expaination..and yes, it should have been "may I". I thoroughly enjoyed the mental picture of the wine delivery...I have a half barrel of Pilsner Urquel in my garage...mmmmmmm.....maybe a realistic rail water tower with delivery to a food grade tank car? I will give that some thought....also noted your comment about wanting to change directions at some point...I have given my perspective area some more thought and now think I can work in some switchbacks to minimize the grade.

[Anonymous]

Hi macnamarajohn
Another way you could cut down the grades if you have the room to do it is
with a spiral where the line goes up and over its self a couple of times.
admitedly this would mean a bit of earth works (well a lot) after the track bed
bridges and tunnel linings where in.
but it could look good if blended into the garden properly
regards John

[Anonymous]

Is it true, in an only minor relation to this topic, that there is, in the Canadian Rockies a stretch of track where trains run virtually "out of control" for a stretch?

[grandpopswalt]

Another aspect to consider is the transition from flat to incline. On a really steep incline (in this case, decline) say 5%, a really long wheelbase engine with a lot of overhang could hang up unless the transition is made gradually.

The train does not "free-wheel" down the hill ( as in: accelerates to 300 MPH). Most engines use worm gears that won't allow the load to overtake the motor. The engine will however accelerate to at least the motor's no-load speed.

Walt

[Anonymous]

Absolutley right Walt, absolutely and lets not forget about the same problem on curves, the overhang problem shoud not be underestimated. i could tell you a story about my area 1 that defies logic, really. Having an ok overhang going forward and the same loco had an overhang that wasn't so good going in reverse and I had to relay the whole section again; it was hitting against the down pipe of my house.


Regards Ian

[Anonymous]

Hello again all..thanks for all the ideas..still struggling with having to get up a 4 foot rise..even with switchbacks I'm somewhat constrained with the turns...plenty of room lenthwise to make ~3% (gain 10" in 30" or so). but I don't have enuf room, width wise, to make the necessary 5 turns to gain my 4' rise. Can anybody recommend a good book on railroad engineering..I'm not smart enough to visualize what can be done..however, I own my own backhoe (little one) so moving dirt around is not a problem.. thanks in advance for any help here.

john

[Anonymous]

whoops..that should have been 10" in 30 feet.

[grandpopswalt]

It seems to me that you could do what you want by building a helix., a spiral that climbs and also who's diameter gets smaller with each coil.

Anyone who owns, as in, has unlimited use of, a backhoe can work miracles. So a helix should be a piece of cake for you.

Good luck.

Walt

[Anonymous]

Listen mate don't do it, use your slope and not let it use you, run tunnels, cutting anything to cut the high side down. Also use trestles, viaducts or build it up a bit to lift your low side. A gradually sloping site is a blessing in disguise I wish i had one.


Regards

Ian.

PS I am really interested in layouts and civil engineering matters to do with garden railways, can you give me a better discription of your site.


Regards


ian

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

A gradually sloping site is a blessing in disguise I wish i had one.

[#ditto] Why is it that everyone who owns a sloping section builds large retaining walls so they can have a flat area to build the railway on, and those with a flat section bring in large volumes of dirt so they can have a slope to get enough height for bridges? [:D]

If you have a slope you can put a few bridges down the 'low' end to level it out. You can use almost anything to hold the track up to begin with, and come back and build the bridges later when you have got the layout running. Garden Tomato stakes make good tresstle 'legs', especially if you are starting out. Build the smallest easiest bridge first, and you'll soon work you way up to grander projects.

Glen Anthony.

[Anonymous]

-
Hi Mcnamarajohn: On the Arizona Central with a Clock wise Direction of travel I have one up Grade section that rises 12 In. in 12 Ft. and one down gGrade section which descends the same 12" in 8' . The complete System is 300' long and I run Bachmann Big Haulers, One 0-4-0 Switcher and Two 4-6-0 Moguls with a variety of Gondola and Mine Cars with real crushed Rock for a load ,about 1/2 Ib. per Car. I've found that each Loco will pull Two loaded Cars and several empty Cars and a Caboose at any Speed setting I choose on the up Grade as well as the down Grade. I choose to Drive the Locos with the controller by applying more Power on the up grade and using the Controller to Brake on the down Grade. Or if other things like talking to a visitor arises I just set it at a slow speed and have no problems with Power lack . I'm not a Purist so Big Haulers are right for us. I have two Neighborhood Kids who have earned the right to Engineer the Trains and several more who are in training. A number of Asset Mgr's[pick up and clean up and scenery Builders] are utilized also. The Grade Gradiuants we use work very well. John

[Anonymous]

Hi Glen
Thats simple because for some reason when they start thier railway
they want the oposite to what they have to work with.
So they create it.
Instead of looking at the block and working out where the line has to go
and what bridges and tunnels would be needed to do it.
Some however realise the wisdom of having the line at the sensable hight
and start by geting that then building the railway they want from there
regards john

[d4fal]

I know this may not be what you want, but using a helper locomotive might be the answer if lowering your grade is not an option. On my old G Scale layout I had a 4.4% grade (4 inches in 8 feet) and even with the two underpowered locos that I had they had a hard time climbing that grade. I had to shorten my trains/weight to get up that grade. It was eventually made shallower until I had moved (dismantled the line).

[Anonymous]

As you can see in the top part of my garden I have a big slope problem.By using a cutting at the top and and raising the railbed down the outsides I have gradients that all my locos can manage both ways.It also has the advantage of running through the shed at workbench height.Perfect!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by troybetts



As you can see in the top part of my garden I have a big slope problem.By using a cutting at the top and and raising the railbed down the outsides I have gradients that all my locos can manage both ways.It also has the advantage of running through the shed at workbench height.Perfect!

Wow! Southern England is so...green. Everything in South Texas is normally brown. That is some slope you have their.

[Anonymous]

First off, thanks for all the replys and suggestions. This is really the first online forum I've participate in, and I must say, I am overwhelmed. What a wonderful place..I'm somewhat amazed at the level of participation..makes me feel like I know you all. As I stated originally, I'm new to the train hobby but I am really enjoying this newfound world (finally did receive my complete first train set with engine, caboose, and a few cars between..probably small stuff to you all, and I would imagine that the caboose is really out of date for the rest of the Pennsylvania RR set..but it looks great to me!!).

Once again thanks to all responders..I may reenter with a less complicated name..mcnamarajohn was the result of my first attemp being denied because it was already in use (who would have thought that "John" would be taken already).

Sorry for all the wordiness..just kinda gushing here because you all seem so nice and helpful. Also, please ignore my gaffs if/when they occur. I'm not really up on forum ettiquete so I may appear to be somewhat of a bore at times..feel free to set me straight when I'm obnoxious.

Last word to Ian..I will take a digital photo of my problem area and post it within the next week or so...any help from a serious civil engineer will most certainly be appreciated.

Regards,

John