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Is the trend for new engines that need ever wider diameters a good idea?

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Posted by RhB_HJ on Saturday, May 22, 2004 11:47 PM
Tom,

It's strictly a case of wanting the cake and eating it, too.

IMHO opinion all it takes is planning, one can plan ahead or modify later. [;)][:)]
I went to the "plan ahead" school. [:)]
Cheers HJ http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/ http://www.easternmountainmodels.com
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 22, 2004 11:26 PM
My .02 is that the bigger engines have an Achille's Heel. The bigger monsters look very cool, and these 21st century products have all the bells and whistles for realism,too. But then
again they require lots of real estate to just RUN adequately--and more real estate if they are
to look good pulling a train. I only purchase LGB engines so I know what I'm in for when I set it on the pike. But even LGB's F-7's however require more clearance than their earlier stuff. The trend is definately toward BIGGER--but who's responsible for the trend???

I feel sorry for those who love the looks of Bachmann shays and climax, and Indys (for they are some of the best looking US-outline on the market, imho) but who have to curse everytime one of these engines goes thru an LGB switch or curve.
I guess if you started with LGB tracks R1 in the rear yard and moved on to different brands of locos eventually all the R1,R2 and maybe even R3 (MTH?) will have to be replaced! Its a shame, but obviously lots of baby boomers wanted Big boys, challengers, and 2-8-8-2's because the manufactures DID NOT make them before they thought people would buy them!!!

For years I heard people whining and booing LGB's stubby little trains.....now America has finally got smooth side coaches, modern diesels and articulated steam giants for the backyard.....didn't everyone realize that this would take much more room?


Regards,

Tom M.
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 22, 2004 11:00 PM
Hi RhB_HJ
the typical Aussie 1/4 acre block may be larger than some properties on the Forum.
But unimpotant things like a house and shed still have to share the block with the railway.
When I started on the railway it was an experement on the best way to do the job,
things like bogie coaches large locomotives where not an issue.
By the time I realised it was going to be an issue too late and well when I get the line passed the building site OOPS I mean BBQ area.
I can use larger radius points, curves and work out where a six meter long bridge is going to go too lazy to cut the steel for the deck support shorter.
Have the room out the back for one spectacular feature and thats going to be it
regards John
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Posted by RhB_HJ on Saturday, May 22, 2004 4:38 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by John Busby

Hi Old Dad
maybe I should get one of them myself forgeting the diferences in US and English
spelling on some words.
No sign writer could possably be worse at spelling than me.
I have the curve problem as well.
But if I riped it up I could only lay the same again.
In the area that I just want to get finished so I can think about future expantion of the line and get to the area that will allow larger curves.
regards John


John,[:)]

What?[?][?][?] You live by the longest piece of straight track in the world and you have a curve problem??

hmmmmmm now that's a new wrinkle![;)][8D][:D]

On that spell-checker item; my experience has been that even when they're part of the fora, spell-checkers are seldom used. The only time it gets "better" is in the chat areas; thinking, typing and reading all at the same time is some challenge.[:p][:)]
Cheers HJ http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/ http://www.easternmountainmodels.com
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 22, 2004 11:49 AM
Hi Old Dad
maybe I should get one of them myself forgeting the diferences in US and English
spelling on some words.
No sign writer could possably be worse at spelling than me.
I have the curve problem as well.
But if I riped it up I could only lay the same again.
In the area that I just want to get finished so I can think about future expantion of the line and get to the area that will allow larger curves.
regards John
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, May 22, 2004 7:27 AM
Hay John,
I really do keep a spell checker near by. I'm a sign maker and we're notoriously known as bad spellers.

The last tunnel built on our line was given enough clearance to accommodate anything that may come along in the future.
Curve radius is something I can do nothing about short of ripping out the entire layout and starting over. If I were to remove our layout I would rebuild in 7/8" scale.

May all your weeds be wild flowers.....OLD DAD
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 21, 2004 9:02 PM
Hi
I have a short 4' tunnel made from a large piece of Poly pipe painted a natural green
I would rather I did not have it
But it is there to keep a plant out of the railway clearance zone I made it far larger than I need just in case you never know what a visitor will bring.
BEWARE of plant lables in the plant nursery this one has grown a lot larger than the lable said it would it has done areasoable job of covering the poly pipe wont be long before it looks quite reasoable.
regards John
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Posted by vsmith on Friday, May 21, 2004 4:51 PM
Be warned, I think Bmann's Connie is one of the largest engines out there clearence wise!

For many who could never afford a 1/20.3 Accucraft K27 and build their layout around those beasties clearances , then finally buying the more affordable Connie and/or the 45ton Diesel, found a new definition of "minimal clearances" when it came to large scale narrow gauge! Wheres that shovel !

My planned little outdoor layout will not have a "tunnel" per-say. But it will be built with generous clearances thoughout.

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 21, 2004 2:46 PM
I have made the descision not to have tunnels on my layout. At best, I May eventually run a line over the main as an "overpass," but tunnels bring on a whole set of major problems I just don't want to have.

Clearance, however, is an issue for an engine house and shop I may elect to build.

I don't really see myself buying one of those "monster" diesels or articulated steam engines, I plan to have a "fleet" of lesser expensive Bachmann steam locos.

Are those on the TRAINS forum really that...hostile?
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 21, 2004 11:30 AM
Hi Old Dad
Beeing the reel litrit type I am and reel komputre litrit as well[:D]
I figure as long as it is good enough to get the message across that will have to do untill I work out how to spell check a post.
Loading gauge is not a problem I thought abou in regards to the descusion in hand
but I take the point on trying to make a large item go through field railway clearances
Concrete hills ect wow will have to find out how too do that one day.
regards John
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 21, 2004 7:00 AM
I keap a speile checkker handi sew I dont loock licke an idiot?

Your right Vic, got myself in trouble over on the TRAINS forum but the "good guys" evenually backed me up. I haven't had the courage to go back yet.

On the large radius issue there is another dimension that can also cause problems for existing layouts; overhead and side clearance. Several of us here in Minnesota have built our layouts with cement land forms on all or part of the line. So our layouts are literally chiseled in stone and not easy to change.
On out RR we used the Bachmann Big Hauler as a clearance gauge since it was the largest locomotive at that time.
When the Bachmann shay came out I really wanted one. Then a member of our club brought his shay over to run it on our line and it was too tall for the tunnels. Sorry, NO shay for me!!!

Then along came the Bachmann 2-8-0 (with sound) and I couldn't live another day without one. When it arrived I realized it was too massive to negotiate our layout. I needed to rip out several areas and rebuild with more side and top clearance. This was a lot of work!!!
Fortunately the large loco takes our single 40" radius curve without too much complaining.

No room to widen the track radius so we can NOT buy any rolling stock that needs a wider curve.

OLD DAD
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Posted by vsmith on Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:35 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by RhB_HJ


BTW there are a few ( small number ) over there who have a real problem reading, writing and comprehending. Which is some doing considering it's online, eh!?! [;)][}:)][;)][:D]



I've kinda noticed that too, not just there but also here on the MR forum and especially the Trains.com forum. I think we have some of the more literate members right here on the GR forum. [:D]

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Posted by RhB_HJ on Thursday, May 20, 2004 1:41 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith



Yeah, but ya gotta be real delicate over there! [:0]

I have to keep repeating that its a discussion about the overall future of the hobby, NOT what I personally want on my layout.

It seams a small number of MLS members can take things real personal and think your putting them down if your not carefull (not from my post but from others I've read). Most are pretty good at reading the real issue and there have been some interesting and very different viewpoints.

It seams each year the offerings open to the R1 rule are getting smaller and smaller (except LGB)


Vic,[:D][:D]

Delicate[8)][8)], yeah that's it!!! That's why I refer to the place as Mighty Large Soap [:)][:)]. You don't watch it, you'll slip on the &^%$*#@ stuff.
Been there, done that, got 3620 posts to prove it and a few "good discussions" with "Idler".

BTW there are a few ( small number ) over there who have a real problem reading, writing and comprehending. Which is some doing considering it's online, eh!?! [;)][}:)][;)][:D]
Cheers HJ http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/ http://www.easternmountainmodels.com
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Posted by vsmith on Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:59 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by RhB_HJ

Vic,[;)]

Just finished reading what the MLSers had to say on this subject, I only check that outfit every two days or so.
Pretty well down the line I expected, including the likely proponents for each side. [^][^][:0]

In short: It's all about choice. The modeler chooses what he wants to run and the mfg chooses what he wants to produce; and somewhere along the line each modeler ends up with what he likes and each mfg sells to his target group.

Kimbrit,

Hornets nest? Not as bad as the gauge/scale thing.[;)][}:)][^]

IMHO that's all for the better, the more often people think about these things, the more likely it will be that most will understand where LS is going and why.



Yeah, but ya gotta be real delicate over there! [:0]

I have to keep repeating that its a discussion about the overall future of the hobby, NOT what I personally want on my layout.

It seams a small number of MLS members can take things real personal and think your putting them down if your not carefull (not from my post but from others I've read). Most are pretty good at reading the real issue and there have been some interesting and very different viewpoints.

It seams each year the offerings open to the R1 rule are getting smaller and smaller (except LGB)

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Posted by RhB_HJ on Thursday, May 20, 2004 8:01 AM
Vic,[;)]

Just finished reading what the MLSers had to say on this subject, I only check that outfit every two days or so.
Pretty well down the line I expected, including the likely proponents for each side. [^][^][:0]

In short: It's all about choice. The modeler chooses what he wants to run and the mfg chooses what he wants to produce; and somewhere along the line each modeler ends up with what he likes and each mfg sells to his target group.

Kimbrit,

Hornets nest? Not as bad as the gauge/scale thing.[;)][}:)][^]

IMHO that's all for the better, the more often people think about these things, the more likely it will be that most will understand where LS is going and why.
Cheers HJ http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/ http://www.easternmountainmodels.com
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:02 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Hey Ian, its 9:30pm pacific standard time, had Sushi for dinner, now watching "Secrets of the Dead" on PBS, wife's watching "American Idiots..I mean Idol" in the other room.

Of course your probably hard at work as it must be afternoon your way.... [(-D]


Vic, I glad to see I'm not alone with American Idiots being viewed, hoever the women in my house seem to all watch it but on different T.V. sets throughout the house instead of watching it together[|(] leaving me with none.[censored]

I would hope G scale manufactures will still produce stuff other than holiday theme sets that run on R1 curves. Imagine X-mas colors getting stripped and repainted just for the funtion of the car. I really don't deal with change well though, I like improvements to items but not the discontinuence of what works.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:25 AM
Hi guys,
This topic has stirred up a hornets nest hasn't it. From the manufacturers point of view it has to be one of diminishing returns whereas, and these are all rough figures, 100% can fit LGB small rad track in their gardens, 80% 8' curves, 70% 10' curves and so on to perhaps 1% can fit a big boy in on realistic curves. We will now see more limited edition locos? but tooling costs being what they are the price would be prohibitive to most of us. The future of the hobby has to be products that the majority of people can afford and these products have to be able to run on track that all rail roaders can fit in their yards. Commercial sense? The manufacturers can not be allowed to steer the hobby, they have to be guided by their customers and produce what the majority want. If they want to do limited editions costing thousands, then so be it, but do so alongside models that are affordable and that everyone can run. I do wonder if we are actually in the golden era of the hobby where we can afford what we do and we can run what we buy. Rene, could this be something that Garden Railways mag can take up on behalf of the hobby and remind the manufacturers now and then?
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, May 20, 2004 1:20 AM
Hi
The manufacturers can make what they like but if it breaks LGB's 1100 rule
they will not be selling it to me.
If it don't go round R1! it don't run on my line.
What will [censored] me off is if the range of small stock suitable for R1 becomes limited and boring.
Some like large locomotives but if that is your cup of tea then dont use R1 they look YUK! going round it.
If like me the preference is for smaller locomotives then while not ideal R1 is fine
and can get more railway into the space hopefully without over crowding.
regards John
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Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:40 PM
Hey Ian, its 9:30pm pacific standard time, had Sushi for dinner, now watching "Secrets of the Dead" on PBS, wife's watching "American Idiots..I mean Idol" in the other room.

Of course your probably hard at work as it must be afternoon your way.... [(-D]

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Posted by RhB_HJ on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 8:15 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

Vic and HJ I was thinking that you guys musn't have a life and it is the middle of the night over there, it is 11 AM thur here, but doing some calculations it must be about 7 pm last night (wed) where you are, so you have an apology in advance from me ok.


Ian


Ian,[;)]

It's a quarter past six, I'm cooking supper while posting[:)][:)]

No, supper doesn't come out of a can.[:I][:I]

Cheers

HJ

PS Thanks for the pix you sent already, yours is an unique garden railway!
Cheers HJ http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/ http://www.easternmountainmodels.com
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 8:07 PM
Vic and HJ I was thinking that you guys musn't have a life and it is the middle of the night over there, it is 11 AM thur here, but doing some calculations it must be about 7 pm last night (wed) where you are, so you have an apology in advance from me ok.


Ian
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Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 7:10 PM
I never said I want everything to run on R1

I said I am concerned that the trend to larger radius curves will alienate many potential garden RR's that dont have the space.

For MY garden RR I am planning on AC 6.5' curves, but i was rather dismayed to learn that the Bmann Connie AND the new Heisler both recommend no smaller than 8 foot. Thats what got me wound up. I can understand why a 3 foot long diesel engine needs 8 foot, but a 18" engine and a 12 inch tender?

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Posted by RhB_HJ on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 6:46 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by Teran5

I personally have a minimum of 8 foot diamiter curves on the origional portion of my layout but with all of these new engines coming out, I decided to go with 10 on my new sections and then once done go back and replace my smaller curves. My stuff is squeezed onto three sides of the yard and the curve goes from the fence to the border in one place. Although I meet the requirments, it's a pain for my stuff to not work very well on the 8 foot i have. My USA SD40-2 usually pulls the cars off the track when going around, even with Kadee couplers. I think the problem is getting manufacturers to get their stuff to work not only on smaller curves, but ALSO work WELL on them. That would solve many problems.


Teran, I think your experiencing what I fear is coming, as the turning radius gets larger more and more of us are going to find we dont have anywhere to expand to! You can only go so wide before most of us run out of real estate.


Vic,

I'm sure any of us can expand as far as we want, it is just a matter of setting some realistic parameters.

BTW a few of the "give me a break" conditions are again directly related to the "scale" question ( [}:)][;)][:D] ). For instance running 1:29 monsters means they get long, running NG in 1:20.3 scale means there is considerable bulk and the overhang that goes with it.
Body or sill mounting couplers that are more or less to scale means the critters will also require closer to scale radii.

How different knuckle couplers "behave" and how that compares to LGB H&L couplers can be read about in the 2/2004 issue of GARTENBAHNprofi, Engli***ranslation available as free PDF at www.easternmountainmodels.com (English>Services>GartenBahnProfi).

The gist of the matter is: you like to run on R1? restrict yourself to either a certain theme or specific manufacturers and/or specific items. You like things to scale in a large way? be prepared to either limit yourself to NG modeling or considerable real estate.
Either way there are limitations, we can't have the cake and eat it. As much as we would like![:)][:)]
Cheers HJ http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/ http://www.easternmountainmodels.com
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 6:33 PM
Vic

I do not regard what you had to say as a rant at all, it was a reasonable remark about a problem that will rebound on the manufacturers in good time. However in the meantime a few people will buy equipment they can't use and will have wasted hard earned dollars.

I just do not have the room for 2 odd metre curves, as I do not have back yard, merely a series of courtyards, so if I was even more unknowing than I am I would not even consider that the equipment wont fit my layout and i would not like my cahnces of getting a refund on those grouds, someytimes we do not all look at all the fine detail to start.

I think that if it was clearly indicated what size track this equipment will need, then the only ones that would buy them are those that can use them. This will automatically reduce their appeal and therefore cost said manufacturer market share, which they will not like, so hopefully the problem will be self fixing.

Rgs

Ian.

PS you guys havent heard much from me lately, as I have actually been working on my layout and I have had a major breakthrough with my pumphouse problem.
Joe did you like my refelections.
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Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 4:57 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Teran5

I personally have a minimum of 8 foot diamiter curves on the origional portion of my layout but with all of these new engines coming out, I decided to go with 10 on my new sections and then once done go back and replace my smaller curves. My stuff is squeezed onto three sides of the yard and the curve goes from the fence to the border in one place. Although I meet the requirments, it's a pain for my stuff to not work very well on the 8 foot i have. My USA SD40-2 usually pulls the cars off the track when going around, even with Kadee couplers. I think the problem is getting manufacturers to get their stuff to work not only on smaller curves, but ALSO work WELL on them. That would solve many problems.


Teran, I think your experiencing what I fear is coming, as the turning radius gets larger more and more of us are going to find we dont have anywhere to expand to! You can only go so wide before most of us run out of real estate.

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 4:54 PM
I personally have a minimum of 8 foot diamiter curves on the origional portion of my layout but with all of these new engines coming out, I decided to go with 10 on my new sections and then once done go back and replace my smaller curves. My stuff is squeezed onto three sides of the yard and the curve goes from the fence to the border in one place. Although I meet the requirments, it's a pain for my stuff to not work very well on the 8 foot i have. My USA SD40-2 usually pulls the cars off the track when going around, even with Kadee couplers. I think the problem is getting manufacturers to get their stuff to work not only on smaller curves, but ALSO work WELL on them. That would solve many problems.
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Posted by vsmith on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 4:53 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Capt Carrales

Is there any rolling stock that is not viable for small diameter curves. I should hope not, I would hate to purchase ($100 US) what will end up a piece of junk.


Yes, any USA or AC streamliner or heavywight passengers car will not do less than 8 footers without risking derailment or coupler popping due to swing and overhang. The Budd RDC will not do less that 8' but remember these cars are over 3 FEET LONG! Thats alot of car to be swinging around in 6 feet.

Almost everything else with truck mounted couplers will work on the smallest R1 curve. Some just dont very pretty doing it though.

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Posted by RhB_HJ on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 4:40 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

I should point out my position isnt what I want!

Its where are we going and is that a good thing?

Are we heading toward a time when nothing new will work on less than 8 foot diameter? Where to seriously contemplate a garden RR we need to have a good acre of land ready?

I dont want or expect a DASH 9 to negotiate a 4 foot turn, but I am concerned that as time goes on less and less on the smaller diameter capable items will be offered and more and more wider only items will come to dominate the market.

How many suburban garden RR's will even consider the hobby when they go into the LHS and get told, "dont even think about a garden RR unless you have a 20' wide by 40 ' long area..."

Thats why I see this trend as having some unforseen pitfalls for the hobby...


Vic,

I hear you!

However mfgs don't build anything that they know won't sell.
If LGB sells 10'000 Mikes and Aristo only 4000 then that means
a) people don't have the room for the 4ft+ rads
b) they like the looks of the LGB Mike better
c) they buy LGB never mind what

Hang out on the "LGB heavy" fora and you'll get the drift. People want to squeeze it through R1 even if they have to squeeze their eyes even harder not to see how ridiculous it looks.

If the mfgs want to produce and sell monster engines they must be aware of the demand.
I've read one or two of Lewis Polk's "poor us, this is such a small market" posts. Well either he's pulling our leg or he's squandering money. Because if the LS market is small, the segment that can run monster engines is even smaller.

I can tell you we don't produce and stock LS trees like there is no tomorrow. If someone needs an indoor forest tomorrow we'll build it, but it won't come off the shelf.

BTW according to the info I have the Bachmann Heisler runs OK on 2ft rads.

Cheers HJ http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/ http://www.easternmountainmodels.com
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How about rolling stock?
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 4:23 PM
Is there any rolling stock that is not viable for small diameter curves. I should hope not, I would hate to purchase ($100 US) what will end up a piece of junk.
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Posted by bman36 on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 4:19 PM
Vic,
Interesting thought. Currently I am set up for 8'. Indoors though all I can have is 4'. Great....I was planning on a Heisler for the indoor in addition to my Shay. Now what??? yeah this is frustrating considering the Shay, Climax, and the Heisler all ran on the same crummy track. Go figure that this new loco can't run with the rest. Does anyone know for sure if the Heisler needs more than 4'??? I'd like to know so I can let myself down easy. As for the big ones...if there's a market they will build them. Apparantly Lewis Polk is doing a talk on the future of Garden Railroading at the MWLSTS. Let me see if I can ask him myself on this very topic. Later eh...Brian.

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