Is the trend for new engines that need ever wider diameters a good idea?

[vsmith]

Nothing I hate worse that that old Lionel Look of trains going around curves, or 6 feet inbetween passenger cars, just to fit under Christmas trees.

Walgreen sells Plastic toy trains that fills your request.

[spikejones52002]

Nothing I hate worse that that old Lionel Look of trains going around curves, or 6 feet inbetween passenger cars, just to fit under Christmas trees.

Walgreen sells Plastic toy trains that fills your request.

[vsmith]

Vic, have a look at the LGB starter set 2-4-0's, they're cheap and look great, they're a heavy chunky beast as well with good pulling power.

Cheers, Kim

[kimbrit]

Vic, have a look at the LGB starter set 2-4-0's, they're cheap and look great, they're a heavy chunky beast as well with good pulling power.

Cheers, Kim

[Mike Dorsch CJ&M r.r.]

As long as they (the manufactures) still make entry level , under the Christmas tree trains people will still get into the hobby I think. Thats my two cents for what it's worth . I'm fortunate that I had the room for 20' diameter track in my back yard . All the stuff looks good going around those curves . I suppose I could have gone to a smaller diameter to get longer strait runs but I didn't want the look of my longer equiptment hanging out over the ties too far. For me I hope that USA will make a SD-90 mac someday . It would look real good with the Dash-9's and SD-70macs that I have now . If you don't have the room to run the big stuff there are a lot of options in locomotives and rolling stock that will work and still look decent .

[cabbage]

Vic, I design all my locos to take the SM32 setcurve of 2 feet 6 inches. The problem is - is that this means that I have to artificially shorten the wheelbase of my locos and correspondingly lengthern the pivot distance. The mathematics of it says that I cannot have a wheelbase longer than 9cm and a pivot distance no longer than 54cm. This precluded the use of any "real" Garratts on my former layout -but not the Golwe configuration... We have both built the Price 16 Wheeler so somewhere we will have followed the same pathway of radial calculation -either by use of an old HP51 or at least plotted it graphically!!! The club layout has a minimum radius of 6 feet, but there are occassions when even my locos get caught out in the curves and de-rail... The blessing with the locos that need larger radii is that they are easier to design from this standpoint and take most of the de-railment problems with them. The standard Luttermoller configuration (0-2+6+2-0) is a case in point. The 3 central axles and the single gear driven axle either side of them, permits it to take corners that a 0-10-0 could never do, without such things as flangless wheels and radial sideplay axles. Yes, I have working test rig for a Luttermoller -but as you know I am busy with something else at the moment! (Vistors to Stoneleigh you have been warned!!!) Mathematics shows that: for an 0-6-0 chassis to have 7cm between each axle, the central wheels must be flangeless for it to take curves smaller than 3 feet 6 inches, with 3 feet as its absolute point of de-railment. My previous layout was perhaps 10m square and the curves and articulated locomotives that prowled over it were a requirement rather than a fad!!! The new one (still buried under the rocks and stones) will be more like the veldt that I grew up with -rather than the quarry that it was... regards ralph

[vsmith]

Thats great Dan but it illustrates one of my points about the unintended message to newbies being "bring an acra of land with you" before you even think of doing largescale.

Unfortunatly I have a grand total of about 25' x 5' to 9' to fit in my outdoor line. My indoor line is a point to point shelf layout about 20' along the back wall of my garage. I'll never run a Mike on either of my layouts. However I can run smaller locos like a Climax, Porter, or other small rod engines. The trouble is that the manufacturers (LGB aside) have of late been catering to the larger diameter crowd and barely holding the status quo regarding smaller engines. Even the 'new' smaller engines recommend wider diameter curves. The Heisler being one, it can take an R1 but its not recommended by Bachmann.

I like large scale, I dont like O (2-rail is way too expensive)  HO or N (to small) and have too much invested to change scales to a smaller scale like On30 that in reality would take up just as much space as a G layout does.

So again, I'm waiting (but not holding my breath) for manufacturers to step up to the plate again. How long do we have to wait to get affordable basic engines like an 0-6-0 tanker? USA's offering is going to be a joke at a MSRP of $700 which is the presale price I have seen.

[Anonymous]

That's why when I started my GRR I used 12.5 foot radius curves, knowing I would eventually get the AC Mikado (which I did). Now, I have no problem running anyrhing the mfgrs put out.

Lucky for me I bought a new house (rancher) on 1/2 acre flat as a pool table.

The larger the curve the more realistic it looks. Never did care for LGB. I like the AC and USA trains. They are more prototypical.

 

dan

[Bill C.]

I am surprised that my new USA S4 can handle R1 curves.  Currently I even have it under the Christmas tree pulling a couple of Bachmann Jackson & Sharp passenger coaches.

[Great Western]

Greetings Ralph, 

   You say you pass Crich each day.  Initially I envied you; then I realised if I passed by there I would NEVER get to work!
 

[cabbage]

I live slightly to the north of Derby on Montpellier near Belper -which is an extinct volcano. Most of the city of Nottingham is an extinct volcano -as is Ediniburgh. We enjoy hot springs (55deg F) and to the north of us is Matlock Bath where the Romans used to enjoy the hot springs. I am very near the remains of: "The Duffield Bank Railway" and "The Cromford and High Peak Railway" added to this I go past "The Imperial Tramway Museum" at Crich on my way to work. A nice place to live!!! My previous home was "The Millwrights Cottage". The place was littered with millstones made of Derbyshire Millstone grit -built into the walls etc... The current home is made of red brick and I no longer need a diamond tipped bit to hang pictures with!!! I normally use Centimetres Centrigrade and Grammes in my day to day work. However my father (87) is still totally Imperial and can only "see" curves in terms of chains. A chain is 22 yards -or the length of a cricket pitch -current a point of contention between UK and OZ..... regards ralph

[Capt Bob Johnson]

Now what was that old saying?  The sun never sets on the British Empire?  It'd be easy to live on top of a volcano and stay within the empire!

Nevertheless, Volcanic action has formulated much land that is lived upon today.  witness the extremes of Hawaii, Iceland, and I'd suspect the origins of the Shetlands or Faroes or Orkneys, not to mention those jobbies down in the South Atlantic that Britian recently fought over ( the Falklands)!  

Lots of volcanos to live upon within Limeyland!

[Anonymous]

Cabbage mate where in the UK could you possibly be living on top of a volcano?

I don't think you should be talikng in Cahins what about, rods poles and perchs,

Not o mention metric stuff.

Rgds Ian

[cabbage]

Speaking as a person whose first love is articulated locomotives -I think this is a good idea.... I have had to wrestle on my previous layout with the need to make and design locomotives capable of taking the std SM32 setcurve radius of 2 feet 6 inches or a scale 0.71 chains (is it alright to say that Vic???). Having moved house and now living on top of a volcano I have a wonderful view and a large flat expanse of garden. I have decided to go with the (for me) breath takingly large curves of 5 feet (1.5 chains) and 6 feet (1.73 chains) radius. I still have to "dodge" part of one of the buildings with 2 feet 6 inches curves -but on the whole I am happier with the larger diameters that I have to work with. I am now free to build the far larger locomotives, yes I am going to build an RR Class 15A -even if it kills me... The larger diameter curves means that I am capable of being very lazy in my design of the 6 and 8 wheel bogies as I now have a turning circle that is well within normal limits!!! For those interested 8 chains is a tight UK curve... regards ralph

[Anonymous]

Yeap, they are hard to control.

I wish we could go back to the old hobby shop cash and carry method, see it before you buy it. 

Yeah been there on that one Marty. Sad thing for me is there is no hobby shop for me to cash and carry.

[vsmith]

Vic, I'm with you on this issue.  I'm really limited in my layout since the area is surrounded by concrete.  I dumped my R1 stuff and went to 5' dia, but I'm not sure I can fit 6.5 dia in my area.  My dilemma is that there is a long box sitting under the tree that, I think, contains either a B'mann Annie or a Connie.  If the former, I'm OK.  If the latter, I've got a problem.  By the way guys, being relatively new here, I only know what R1 is.  What are the diameters for R2 and up?

Hello Eric,

LGB: R1 = 600mm; R2 = 765mm; R3 = 1175mm; R5 = 2320mm

LGB turnouts are available in R1, R3 and R5

"R" stands for radius. Other manufacturers designate their curves by using the center to center diameter. 

 

Hope that helps

 

ER 

 

 

And in english for those of us in the non-metric part of the world...

LGB: R1 = 4' diameter; R2 = 5' diameter; R3 = 8' diameter; R5 = 16' diameter (more or less)

[Anonymous]

Vic, I'm with you on this issue.  I'm really limited in my layout since the area is surrounded by concrete.  I dumped my R1 stuff and went to 5' dia, but I'm not sure I can fit 6.5 dia in my area.  My dilemma is that there is a long box sitting under the tree that, I think, contains either a B'mann Annie or a Connie.  If the former, I'm OK.  If the latter, I've got a problem.  By the way guys, being relatively new here, I only know what R1 is.  What are the diameters for R2 and up?

Hello Eric,

LGB: R1 = 600mm; R2 = 765mm; R3 = 1175mm; R5 = 2320mm

LGB turnouts are available in R1, R3 and R5

"R" stands for radius. Other manufacturers designate their curves by using the center to center diameter. 

 

Hope that helps

 

ER 

 

 

[Marty Cozad]

Yeap, they are hard to control.

I wish we could go back to the old hobby shop cash and carry method, see it before you buy it. 

[Anonymous]

We cut up credit cards and "we" me , don't need any more trains.

The Man cut his cards...omg!!! Marty I would have never thought you in all my years.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

I would have to agree that it may become detrimental.   I would also say that I don't see the situation changing for a while; but there is some ray of hope!

First, the strictly steam guys are pretty well set because, to all intent and purpose, barring development of some sort of nuclear/steam package, development of steam engines is over!  Your track can handle a big boy, there won't be anything bigger to model!

History in the real railroad tells us that yesterday's road engine becomes today's short haul power or switcher!   Look at all the 38-2s and SD40s that have become relegated to those more mundane duties!   That would indicate that at some point we will see all these dash 9s and 70MACs relegated to such usage!

The ray of hope lies in the fact the most switching occurs in more urbanized areas, therefore, people won't want those beasts belching pollution into the air near their homes; thus forcing the development of some new smaller and envrionmentally friendly switchers for urban setting usages.   At some point down the road, the manufacturers will be modelling those new smaller switchers which would be useful for those of you whose railroads are spacially challanged!    

I'm not holding my breath for that to happen, but it will eventually come to pass.

[Marty Cozad]

Thats why subject like this is broad. Depends on what stage of life your in. I have been saling stuff this last year to buy other trains. We cut up credit cards and "we" me , don't need any more trains.

[Anonymous]

I guess if you are well off it doesn't matter. Me, I live in a second floor apartment...Sorry, but I don't HAVE the space for anything but R-1 curves! My HUGE 5' x 8' tabletop layout takes up most of the diningroom area....Moving isn't an option either, as I can barely afford this place.

 If it wasn't for LGB/Lehmann Toytrain I'd still be stuck playing with N scale.

[Marty Cozad]

Hi Vic

I understand lack of room. Thats was my problem. then I was willing to pay the price and move to get the room to enjoy the hobby more.

Space is not always the issue, if you want something bad enough you will make it work.

 

But I fall into temptation much more than others once you have the room.

I'd have more $$ in the bank if I still had the space of my first RR.

 

Those who have 8' curves probably could fit 10' curves in , but they don't want to change.

I started with 10' dia curves in a tight spot. 

I've posted this before, my first outdoor GRR

 

I know of many GRRs who say they don't have the space, its more like I don't want to take up more space.

any way its just a topic to chat about. 

[BudSteinhoff]

Isaac, First of all I have many Bachman locos and love them but, the comparison you gave with Aristo CRAFT was with a ancient product from them. Several of my Aristocraft locos individually could outpull all of my Bachman connected together. Both companies products have there place but when it comes to pulling power Aristo is the brute. I have converted all my curves and switches to min. 8 ft dia and am glad I did. Bud

[vsmith]

Vic, I'm with you on this issue.  I'm really limited in my layout since the area is surrounded by concrete.  I dumped my R1 stuff and went to 5' dia, but I'm not sure I can fit 6.5 dia in my area.  My dilemma is that there is a long box sitting under the tree that, I think, contains either a B'mann Annie or a Connie.  If the former, I'm OK.  If the latter, I've got a problem.  By the way guys, being relatively new here, I only know what R1 is.  What are the diameters for R2 and up?

Eric theres a brief description on the bottom of page 3 of this topic.

Marty, if you have the room, I agree, if you dont, it can be more interesting planning wise. Say I wanted to model standard gauge steam era. At 5' diameter all 4 axle diesels can be run but none of Aristo's standard gauge steamers (sans switcher) can be, which is a huge detriment. As I said in 2004, the message to a modeler that if you dont have room for larger radius curves, your options are limited to narrow guage or more modern diesels. It just gets me that still 2 years later, no one has offered a new smaller locomotive that could fill this niche. Aristo's B&O 2-8-0 is MIA. USA's metal 0-6-0 is a joke as no one will cough up the $1300 for what should be a $300 plastic loco. Others may disagree but to me that was one of the stupidest marketing moves I've ever seen and a perfect bookend to this topic, namely the move ever more expensive models (how many $1K-$3K GG1's do we really need?)

MTH works on smaller diameters but alot of modelers dont want to be limited to 1/32 scale. Anyway, some more food for thought...

[kimbrit]

I have all 8' diameter curves and the AC mike front bogie caught the cylinders before I filed a bit off of them. I now tend to stick with LGB loco's, they all look good on 8' curves and I don't have to modify anything.

Kim

[Marty Cozad]

Well I usually avoid some topics, but to answer the question w/o reading all the others.

The answer would be yes, if it sales. The LS companies has to find products that will sale and if there is a demand for an item , why not.?

I personally don't buy engines with girls names . Bigger the better and if it means changing some track and rebuilding the RR then thats just more fun.

Thats my 2 cents. 

[Anonymous]

Vic, I'm with you on this issue.  I'm really limited in my layout since the area is surrounded by concrete.  I dumped my R1 stuff and went to 5' dia, but I'm not sure I can fit 6.5 dia in my area.  My dilemma is that there is a long box sitting under the tree that, I think, contains either a B'mann Annie or a Connie.  If the former, I'm OK.  If the latter, I've got a problem.  By the way guys, being relatively new here, I only know what R1 is.  What are the diameters for R2 and up?

[vsmith]

Hi there

 This thread was started back in 2004! learned a lot since then, I have since given up on waiting for manufacturers to make what I like and have started building myown, to R1 standards of course