challenger3980,
Summary of major "hateful" properties of the CW-80:
1. Very poor early quality control, resulting in many being dead right out of the box; or early in-use failures. Some of this may have been due to an internal fuse (virtually non-replaceable) that blew too easily, and/or operator error.
2. Will not work on 50 Hz current -- a real problem for those in Great Britain and Europe. Evidently the catalog and other advertising media failed to warn about this, although the Owner's Manual and some of the packaging did.
3. Long-uncorrected reversal of scheme for hooking-up to the track. For those who never used the Accessory posts, or only used them on accessories that were isolated from the outer-rail of the track, this was never a problem. For those situations where the outer-rail was used as a "common ground" (such as using use the Accessory posts to provide a constant-voltage feed to O22 or FasTrack turnouts, it was a major annoyance. It could easily be resolved by reversing the leads from the transformer to the track, but this also reversed the functions of the whistle/horn and bell buttons. See lionelsoni's post of 4/28, above.
4. Would not run locos of certain other manufacturers, especially of MTH.
5. Only 80 watts (5 amps) maximum output; can not be overdriven. The "fold-back circuit limits the output to safe levels; still, some folks say they would prefer a circuit-breaker.
6. No repair service available either at Lionel or its authorized dealers. Replacements were/are available within 1-year warrantly period, but warranty provisions are strict. At end of warranty period, owner is pretty much on his own. (The warranty, bad as it was, is not transferable from one owner to another. This seems to be Lionel corporate policy and is not confined to the CW-80.) Folks who bought theirs on eBay or the like generally found themselves automatically out of warranty, no matter how recently the item was manufactured.
7. Some folks didn't like the muffin fan or the ramp-up throttle when the direction button was used.
8. Lionel would generally not acknowledge that the Cw-80 had problems, and was very slow to correct them. By the same token, many operators did not read the Owner's Manual which could have saved them a good deal of grief. Unfortunately, this was made even more problematic by unclear, inconsistent, incomplete and plain wrong instructions in the manual. The worst ones involve basic hook-up instructions and the "programmable fixed-voltage taps."
9. In certain situations locomotives would not reverse correctly unless a small load, such as a lamp or two, was connected to track power.
No one knows how many problems there actually were. Some forumites posted their particular problem over and over again. Also many posters added repeatedly to the din even though they had no personal experience with the device. The same complaint posted five times is not the same as five complaints.
In my opinion, the most revealing post about the CW-80 was written by "donhradio" on the other major forum. As of this date, it is still there, as is the one by TedB immediately following. Do an advanced search. Fill in the blocks for key word CW-80 and author donhradio. That's all you need. The post is dated Jan 01, 2007. It, and the one following, say a mouthful. Sorry, I can't seem to post a "clickable link."
Many of the above deficiencies have been corrected by "ongoing product improvement" and the major revision in the CW-80 in 2006. Most people seem happy with the new ones, although the 50 Hz and the "MTH" problems still exist, I believe.
Well I called Lionel on the CW-80 and told them it stopped working 1 year ago. I knew I had bought it in December but was unsure if it was of 2005 or 2004. I think it was 2005,, on closeout at Menards. Well NO HELP FROM LIONEL! I liked it until it stopped working. Peee on Lionel. I'll try to find the reciept when I go through paperwork this summer.
Is there any fix to this transformer? The lady I talked to said that dealers can't service these transformers.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
I'm so glad that I don't own one, so I never have had to find out if it had a problem. My 180 watt bricks are working fine.
My daughter's PE has a CW80 and so far so good.
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
Now that's interesting, I just did a search on CW-80 and got zero responses, not even this thread. Changed it to CW80 and got 438 responses.
Anyway there has definately been a lot of discussion. Don't own one so can't contribute anything else.
2 out of 4 have crapped out on me. Has anyone seen the new transformer that's going to be included in all 2008 starter sets? It's a great looking rig. Very post war looking design, but from what I understand, only 30-40 watts. Still, I'd rather have that than a dead cw-80!
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Hi Henry (RS 3 Hostler),
I have only been in 0 3 rail for about 1 1/2 years now, so I can't really give you a long term reliability review on any of the transformers. I do prefer the CW-80 to the MTH Z-Series transformers though.
My biggest issue with the MTH transformers is the high minimum voltage ( YES I KNOW many Lionel transformers have the same issue). Another thing that I prefer about the CW, is I don't care for the external power bricks (AGAIN, YES I KNOW that the "NEW ZW" uses them too, as well as the BW-80) and one more issue I have is that to me the Z-Series transformers do look like something from a cheap HO starter set. But in all fairness, I can't say that the MTH's have given me any trouble, but then I don't give them much use, unless running a Proto-2 locomotive.
I do prefer the looks of the CWs, they do have the 50s look that looks right for 0-gauge trains, purely aesthetic true, but then so is scenery. The 0-18v throttle has already been mentioned, and like you, I appreciate the numerically indexed throttle, it makes passing trains from one transformer to another unnoticeable.
Well I gotta go, almost late for work,
Smile, Trains are Supposed to be Fun,
Doug.
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
I haven't had much personal experience with the CW-80, but the toy train club I belong to has gone through several models. Chief issues are the balky direction control button and lack of compatibility with non Lionel products. I personally have an issue with the ergonomic design of the buttons--they are too small, too hard to see, and a bit hard to operate.
It DOES have some positive features. It's compact--important where space is at a premium. The throttle gives you a full votage range of 0-18 volts, which allows for smooth startups, and the throttle index does give an approximate voltage setting. I especially like the voltage ramp up feature on the reverse button. Unfortunately, this benefit is negated by its lack of reliability. The "foldback" setting has the potential to be a plus feature, but I'm guessing this may be the source of many of the CW-80's teething problems.
I've been looking at catalog specs, and the MTH Z-1000 appears to be a better buy. It costs less, gives more power [100 vs 80 watts], and has a well laid out control panel with color-coded buttons. The lack of a volt meter might be an issue, but that is easily solved with an add-on meter. I'm assuming here that the Z-1000 has the same standard sine wave output as other transformers in this series.
Since Challenger 3980 has had experience with both models, I'd be curious to see how the Z-1000 rates against the CW-80 in terms of performance and reliability.
Henry
I too have high regard for Allan and Bob. That being said, I also like the CW80 within it's limitations. It is a starter set transformer and I use mine for operating a Christmas layout around the tree. I have a few and I plan to use one for running a trolley line on a large layout, where the trolley line will be a small, separate loop. I did have one problem with an early "Hobo Set" CW80, I belive the date was in 94? not sure. Anyway, I called Lionel, gave them the serial number and had a new one on my doorstep two days later....no questions asked. The problem was as stated by another poster, ran the train for a good while, then one day, it just quit. Light and fan run, but no power to track.
As for the tempers of the folks on this forum, the vast majority are very nice, well informed, and like to poke a little fun with each other. Some do like to start trouble, but they are very few and I have found that if you ignor them, they usually get the point and don't show up too often.
Welcome to the forum and please return often.
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
Boyd wrote:My CW-80: P/N:6-14198 On the bottom of the sticker: Made in China 0704. I'm guessing thats the date?It was one day I pulled it out and it didn't work. The green light comes on as does the fan. I tried my WC 4-4-2 and my DMIR GP9 8158 and neither would run. But my MRC 027 transformer works great for both engines accept on the 4-4-2 the reverser won't change direction until track power goes down to zero. So on the MRC transformer I have to shut it off when I change directions.
On the bottom of the sticker: Made in China 0704. I'm guessing thats the date?
It was one day I pulled it out and it didn't work. The green light comes on as does the fan. I tried my WC 4-4-2 and my DMIR GP9 8158 and neither would run. But my MRC 027 transformer works great for both engines accept on the 4-4-2 the reverser won't change direction until track power goes down to zero. So on the MRC transformer I have to shut it off when I change directions.
My CW-80: P/N:6-14198
Other than PW transformers my first CW-80 experience was this winter upon receipt of my Polar Express set. Loved the smooth throttle handle, and ergonomics/looks in general. Didn't like the fan...Cheesy and distracting. Also didn't like how the least bit of arcing and sparking while your PW loco runs down the track and crosses switches will cause the "roll-back circuit" to cut out. Also 80 watts seems just a bit weak for my taste; I know there are cost and return on investment considerations for Lionel but a round 100 Watts would make a much more capable starter Xformer IMHO.
Also liked the soft start voltage ramp up when using the reverse pushbutton. I ALWAYS thought while using old post War reverser buttons that the instant application of voltage made for very jerky train movements even derailments. If I wanted to quickly cycle the E-unit the knobs on my "V" model could be twirled very quickly with all the benefit of analog voltage control.
Thanks for the thread too. Searching forums sucks.
Roland
I have two CW-80 transformers. They seem to work fine with all of the Lionel equipment I've used on them, and even my RailKing Genesis with ProtoSound 1. The only locomotive that doesn't work on it is my RailKing SW1500 with ProtoSound 2.0. Even at the lowest voltage setting possible, the horn blasts continuously, and it's very annoying. I guess the answer to the original question is that many people hate the CW-80 because it is not very compatible with other trains, and sometimes it just doesn't work at all. My CW-80's work, but they don't run MTH PS2 engines, which is a problem for me, seeing that most of the trains I want in the future are MTH PS2. True, the CW-80 is not a universal transformer; it can run other things besides Lionel, but not all.
I agree with bfskinner...if you are using a cw-80 to run lionel starter trains it works fine (if it does not fail). It will probably run most conventional engines as long as you have a lighted lock on. If you want to use it with any complicated engines you can expect quirks or problems (depending on how you define problems).
The CW-80 is definately a "starter set" transformer for Lionel trains and perhaps a few other conventional engines.
Jim H
jimhaleyscomet,
Although some folks have reported good or partial success using the CW-80 with various pieces of MTH equipment with various versions of ProtoSounds; I have had no such luck with my single MTH steam loco with ProtoSounds-1, although two MTH RailKing GG1's with simple horns work perfectly.
If one goes to Google and keys in exactly: MTH transformer compatibility chart he will find a list of transformers that MTH has found to be compatible with their equipment. Many of these transformers are made by Lionel, but note that the CW-80, no matter what date of manufacture, is NOT among them; nor are certain other well-known transformers from various manufacturers. If in any doubt, give Customer Service at MTH a call.
I think it is a good rule to consider the CW-80 (Revised) as a starter-set transformer for Lionel equipment and leave it at that. It is not a "universal" toy train transformer. Perhaps it should be, but it's not. I think we just have to live with that, and if it causes one to "hate" the CW-80 then so be it.
Okay, when it first came out it had a defect.. something severe. Then Lionel modified it. That may or may not have worked. Some were sent back, maybe fixed, then redistributed. In addition the Cw-80 is not really a variable transformer it doesn't produce a pure sine wave and with some other products it causes trouble.
No point in loving it or hating it.. If you've got one that works, fine. If you've got a problem one you'll know why folks don't want them.. There are plenty of other transformers to chose from.
Boyd,
Please be more specific with what your CW-80 does and does not do. That is, does the green light come on? How about the fan? How have you hooked it up? What are you trying to run with it just a train, or train plus accessories? What is the date of manufacture? Evidently it once ran. What was going on when it stopped working? Have you talked to Lionel or your dealer about it?
My PS2.0 loco runs fine on the CW-80 as long as I keep the power level low. If I increase it too much then the horn blows constantly (and also sometimes randomly).
DOUG,
Rock on and like you said, Smile, Trains are Supposed to be Fun,
laz57
Well, I guess that I'm not the only one who likes the CW-80 after all. Jim (jimhaleyscomet), you can run PS2 engines OK? Mine don't like the CWs.
Bfskinner, I can't get PS2s to work with my CWs very often, horns blow randomly and near continuously. But the PS-1 locomotives (diesel switcher, and a 2-6-0) that I have, not a problem at all, I can even get the couplers to work properly.
Hi laz57, I've seen many of your posts, enjoy them, find them interesting and even occasionally learn something from them (hard to beat that)
To everyone else, thanks for all the informative replies, whether you liked the CW-80s or not, I have enjoyed all the posts that dealt with specific problems, that was the point of the post to begin with, to learn more about the hobby, and hopefully avoid some of the mistakes that others have learned from.
Doug
I have had 5 CW-80 transformers. Still have 3 and sold 2 to my brother. All are still working great, only had to replace a blown fuse in one. The rest all worked great, I have never had any problems with them. The blown fuse delt with a old whistle switch that I hooked up wrong.
Rock on,
Just the other day I was thinking how long it has been since we saw a "kill the CW-80" post, and that maybe I should mention it. The point would have been that the new revised CW's seem to be doing fine. However, I decided to leave sleeping dogs be. Silly me. So, back into the arena once more....
Doug, your question is a good one and I hope you won't back down. There are several people on this and the other major forum who never miss an opportunity to blast the CW-80. They refuse to acknowledge that it has undergone "continuous product improvement" more or less since it's inception, but the really big change came as recently as some time during calendar year 2006.
There are two ways to tell a revised one from one of the more troublesome ones. The certain way is to unplug it from the wall socket and disconnect all wires from the device. Then put the probes from an common household ohmmeter across the U-under-A and U-under-B posts. If you see commonality (dead short, zero ohms) you have a revised one. If, on the other hand you see zero ohms across posts A and B, you have an old quirky one.
Another way that SEEMS to work is to look on the bottom of the device and locate a date of manufacture of the form G0906 or 0903. I have been told that the ones with the alpha-prefix are the revised ones, but don't hold me to it. The passive-aggressive Lionel Customer "Service" technicians have told me (personal communications) that anything with a 2006 date is a revised one, but they always follow it with "I guess." Why do they have to guess, of all people? The "ohmmeter method" is best.
The problem with MTH PS1 systems is a real bother to MTH fans. One poster on this forum insists that PS1 will work. He is so adamant that I hate to contradict him but my sole example of an MTH locomotive will not run on any CW-80 that I have experience with -- despite the fact that I have tried everything that poster has suggested. As far as I know that problem has not been fixed by the new revisions, but I could be wrong.
Again, as far as I know the CW-80 doesn't like 50 Hz current. The Owner's Manual is clear about that, but I certainly agree that Lionel should have made it clearer to the Red Coats and others. In my humble opinion, Lionel has a lot to answer for Public Relations wise.
Lionel has been good about replacing CW-80's no questions asked during the warranty period of one year of purchase under certain limitations which they seem to apply inconsistently. The problem was, many (if not most) of the replacements made prior to mid 2006 behaved just like the original ones. In other word, there were serious design/manufacturing flaws and the replacement was exactly as bad as the original.
I'm not going to be tempted into another endless post on this subject, although I will try to answer specific questions. Most of my older posts are correct, with one glaring exception that I am indebted to ADCX Rob for pointing out: There is a lag in response with the CW-80 when the direction button is pressed and the loco moves from Neutral-to-Forward, or Neutral-to- Reverse. (Some have suggested this is to be gentle on the rubber tires on so many modern locos.) There is no lag in response when the orange throttle is used by itself although it may seem like it because the device only has limited power (80 watts/5 amps) to begin with.
I pretty much love my CW-80's, and I still don't even have one of the revised ones. I want a couple of the revised ones for my personal use.
Middle-of-the night UPDATE: in the original version of this post I asked Bob Nelson (lionelsoni) a question about his assertion that the 1033 and KW transformers had low voltage capabilities depending on how they were hooked to the track. I did not know how to do this with the KW. While awaiting his reply, I researched the subject in official (albeit old) Lionel documentation and concluded, after considerable effort, that he was correct that the KW transformer can be hooked up to start at zero volts rather than six. Doing so, however, limits the high-end voltage to 14. The "official" specs are: 1033, 0-11 volts; KW, 0-14 volts; and CW-80, 0-18 volts. (All voltages nominal.)
It also appears that with each of these hookups, a circuit-breaker (if working properly) or a "fold-back" circuit (in the case of the CW-80) protects the transformer; therefore, these are acceptably safe ways to power the track. If this is not clear, be advised that in some postwar transformers with multiiple output posgs, it is quite easy to hook them up in a way that the circuit-breaker gets bypassed. This is not good, and there is no warning. One needs to consult official Lionel documentation which is not always easy to find.
WHY do so many people HATE the Lionel CW-80 transformer?
I think the poor thing started with a bad rap when it did not behave exactly like other transformers (i.e. delayed ramp up power, different "common" terminals, the need for a load to reverse some engines(especially Thomas the Tank). The problem was made worse by really poor technical support (i.e. some of the manuals were incorrect or did not address how to add accessories). One other thing is if the fan fails it is toast for most users. Finally the worse problem (in my opinion) was the batch(es) of DOA transformers that were shipped out in sets. Many a child opened his new train set on a birthday or Christmas day only to find it did not work! That was a HUGE bummer for child and parent and/or anyone that purchased a ZW without the warranty.
Personally, I love the way the CW-80 looks. I do not try to run accessories and trains simultaineously with it and only run PS2.0 locomotives at less than full throttle. The ergonomics make it perfect for use with young children and cheap engines...especially the Lionel starter engines and Beeps.
p.s. If you add TMCC remote/command base ($100) to your NEW ZW and set the throttles at about half then you can use the remote to make any conventional locomotive crawl VERY slow.
lionroar88 wrote:Doug,Only one person has posted that Lionel HAS in FACT fixed the CW-80s... They even would replace them for free if they had been returned within the first year of purchase and the buyer was having problems with them.I don't have my two CW-80s with me, but there is an easy way to tell if you have one of the newer models.Brent
Thank You for the info, just curious, how can you tell if it is an updated CW? Mine work fine for how they are used, but the proto-2 incompatibility is a little frustrating admittedly.
Allan Miller wrote: Well, Doug, I believe that if you checked the archives of this or just about any other toy train forum, you would find ample threads related to the CW80--my guess is that more threads have been devoted to that transformer, in detail, than to any other power supply in the long history of O gauge transformers. Not all who posted serious concerns to those threads could be wrong.You asked "WHY do so many people HATE the Lionel CW-80 transformer?" Those are your exact words and the title of this thread. The reasons are many and well documented, I believe, and a simple search should easily lead you to the answers you're looking for. I opened the thread because I found it somewhat hard to believe that the word hadn't been adequately spread at this point. I once owned three of them; now have one that resides in its box, awaiting some future disposition. So I guess I'm fairly well qualified--or was at one point--to comment on this item, which I did on numerous occasions in the hope that it would avoid seeing others subject themselves to disappointed in this fine-looking, but notoriously erratically performing transformer.
Well, Doug, I believe that if you checked the archives of this or just about any other toy train forum, you would find ample threads related to the CW80--my guess is that more threads have been devoted to that transformer, in detail, than to any other power supply in the long history of O gauge transformers. Not all who posted serious concerns to those threads could be wrong.
You asked "WHY do so many people HATE the Lionel CW-80 transformer?" Those are your exact words and the title of this thread. The reasons are many and well documented, I believe, and a simple search should easily lead you to the answers you're looking for. I opened the thread because I found it somewhat hard to believe that the word hadn't been adequately spread at this point.
I once owned three of them; now have one that resides in its box, awaiting some future disposition. So I guess I'm fairly well qualified--or was at one point--to comment on this item, which I did on numerous occasions in the hope that it would avoid seeing others subject themselves to disappointed in this fine-looking, but notoriously erratically performing transformer.
I am sorry that you have had such a disappointing experience with it. Used in the right situation, it is a good unit that is available online for great prices. I have given many sets to Nephews, Friends and my Son-in-Law, all of them love them and when offered the choice of the CW or a MTH Z series, to the last one picked the CW, all thought it looked like it should. My Grand Daughter has a BLAST with it. It is not a Powerhouse like the ZW, and you probably wont find many at clubs, but those weren't its target markets anyway.
When used more the way it was intended, it is a nice transformer, and I was curious why other people were so unhappy with them. Again, Sorry that it didn't fit your needs, but as a starter set transformer, it really shines, and that was its intended market niche. I did welcome and enjoy all the honest assessments and explanations of what people didn't like about it, that was a main reason for the thread, so that I (and others) wouldn't try to use it in a manner that it wasn't suited for. I believe that this is a good example of what the forums were created for, for modelers to help each other get the most enjoyment out of the hobby, while suffering as few headaches along the way as possible.
Smile, Trains are Supposed to be FUN,
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