I have read many posts commenting on the CW-80 transformers, but no one ever states why they dislike it so much. So WHY do you guys hate the CW-80 so much, I would like to hear actual reasons (I truly am curious) not just blanket statements of how HORRIBLE it is.
I have quite a few transformers 2 ZWs (an original w/R windings, and a "NEW ZW") plus MTH Z-500, 750, 1000s, and obviously some CW-80s.( bought the MTH Z series early in the learning curve, and most were acquired in sets) ALL the other transformers (including both ZWs) have a minimum voltage that is so high that my smaller locomotives (especially ones without sound) can not be started smoothly or run at a slow speed. 0-6 or so volts and they just take off like a rocket. Why can't Lionel and MTH get a lower minimum voltage on their BETTER transformers? even the $429.00 list price ZW, man you would think that for over 400 bucks you could get a decent starting voltage, but it doesn't seem so.
And as far as appearances go the CW-80s in my opinion have the MTH z series beat hands down they're not even a close second. The MTH z series to me look like something from a cheap HO starter set. And I absolutely HATE the external power bricks ( yes, I know that the "NEW ZWs use them too, and also that Lionel made the BW-80, a CW with a power brick)
So how about it what are your REASONS for disliking the CW-80s?
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Doug,
I also like the looks of the CW80, but I am disappointed with its performance for the following reasons:
1. When attempting to run a postwar steamer and blow the whistle, the transformer go into "fold back mode" and gradually kills the power.
2. Fold back mode. A circuit breaker would be much better since it kicks off instead of just reducing the power.
3. The delay that results from pushing the direction button and having to wait for the power to slowly come back up. This seems unnecesary.
I prefer the MTH Z1000 because it does not exhibit these traits, there are no compatability issues, and it has more power. But, I like the CW80 for its looks.
Here's a good reason.
Ask anyone from a country who's mains power is generated at 50Hz and the chances are they will voice their disllike.
The CW-80 DC offset whistle and bell circuits malfuntion on 50Hz causing the whistle and bell to sound continuously. This has caused quiet a few problems on this side of the pond.
It would be nice if Lionel could sort this problem or a least mention in the catalogue what items are not 50Hz compatible to avoid people's disappointment. And the negative customer feedback that results.
Your average customer is now so used to electrical equipment that can cope with 50Hz/60Hz and variable voltage 110/240V. i.e. Sony playstation 2. That the lack of this sort of multi-national support comes as a complete surprise.
I was on the "other" forum and a Lionel dealer mentioned he sent 20 Lionel Sets to the UK alone at Christmas and that very day he had just posted 12 parcels abroad of which 7 were bound for the UK. From that I would say the foreign markets are well worth looking after.
Nick
It seems to me that there have been many postings of the specifics of "why they dislike it so much". Here is mine from February:
"My principal objection to the CW80 has to do with the upside-down wiring of its outputs, which make it unusable in many popular accessory applications unless you are willing to hook it up in a way that reverses the whistle and bell functions. Lionel has apparently recently fixed this problem. However, they seem not to admit that anything had been wrong and have given us no good way to tell the corrected transformers from the earlier ones without an electrical test. So, if you buy one, be forewarned that you might be getting new-old stock.
"Another design problem is that the CW80 must be loaded with something like a lighted lockon if you expect it to be able to reverse newer locomotives. Not a show-stopper, but a nuisance.
"A third problem that I have with it is the ramping of the output. This is purely a personal preference, that the output should follow the control immediately, as with the transformers I grew up with. You may love it the other way.
"Another thing to watch out for is that the CW80 puts out a distinctly non-sinusoidal waveform. Some folks have reported that some non-Lionel locomotives and accessories misbehave as a result. This waveform also has the quirk that its voltage cannot be read correctly with a conventional AC voltmeter. I have posted a chart several times for correcting the meter reading to the actual (RMS) voltage."
Bob Nelson
Bob is absolutely correct: There have been MANY posts, on this and other forums, that more than adequately expressed dissatisfaction with the CW80, complete with detailed reasons. I've posted a number of comments on that topic myself in recent years, and will not repeat my concerns here. It's a subject that has been discussed to death--quite literally.
To be sure, there are some folks who like the CW80 (I like its appearance myself, but not its operation), and those folks should be perfectly content with what they have and the choices they made. If you have a CW80 and like it, more power to you, and you certainly don't need any justification from anyone else to support your selection.
Allan Miller wrote: Bob is absolutely correct: There have been MANY posts, on this and other forums, that more than adequately expressed dissatisfaction with the CW80, complete with detailed reasons. I've posted a number of comments on that topic myself in recent years, and will not repeat my concerns here. It's a subject that has been discussed to death--quite literally.To be sure, there are some folks who like the CW80 (I like its appearance myself, but not its operation), and those folks should be perfectly content with what they have and the choices they made. If you have a CW80 and like it, more power to you, and you certainly don't need any justification from anyone else to support your selection.
I have been in three rail less than 2 years now, model railroading more than 35 though, and I still am learning a lot about 3R AC trains yet. I came on the forum hoping to learn more and get useful information from other modelers. If you have some actual information it would be appreciated, but the negative attitude is not what the forums were intended for. I'm sorry that I missed all those past forums, but my thread title was very clear about the content, I am sure that there are many other newer modelers that may not have seen the older posts either. So if you are tired of the topic why even open the thread? I was looking for information about something that I did not know, the only dumb question is the one that you don't ask (within reason of course)
Smile, Trains are Supposed to be Fun,
I, too, had read the reviews of the CW-80. Some of the comments were about the early production models. Last July, I purchased a brand new one on E-Bay for $40. (incl. s&h). I use it to run accessories and a smaller loop. To date, I have had no problems.
I like the appearance. It is not as powerful as my ZW but it serves its purpose.
I think the "Love-Hate" relationship arises from individual experiences with a particular machine and the individual expectations for its performance.
For me, the price was right for the purpose intended.
Challenger, I didn't detect that Allan had been offended; his reply seems pretty calm and neutral to me. For more detail, you might search "CW80" on the forum. You asked why folks didn't like the CW80, and your question was answered, with "actual information", it seems to me. I wonder that you asked for an exposition of the CW80's faults and then are upset by negativity in the replies.
There are several postwar transformers that can be connected to go down to zero volts, including the popular 1033 and KW.
By the way, you were the one who opened the thread, not Allan.
lionelsoni wrote: Challenger, I didn't detect that Allan had been offended; his reply seems pretty calm and neutral to me. For more detail, you might search "CW80" on the forum. You asked why folks didn't like the CW80, and your question was answered, with "actual information", it seems to me. I wonder that you asked for an exposition of the CW80's faults and then are upset by negativity in the replies.There are several postwar transformers that can be connected to go down to zero volts, including the popular 1033 and KW.By the way, you were the one who opened the thread, not Allan.
Thank You for the info on the 1033 and the KW, I don't have any experience with them, this is more the kind of answer that I was looking for
No, I STARTED this thread, Allan had to OPEN it to read it, the title was VERY CLEAR about the content, if he thought that the subject had already been beat to death in previous forums that I had missed, then it was real easy, don't open the thread. There are plenty of threads posted that I don't open for various reasons, that don't interest me, but I don't go into them then tell them that they shouldn't have posted, I just don't open/read them.
lionelsoni wrote:"Smile, Trains are Supposed to be Fun, Doug"
BTW, that closing line is one that I am known for down at the club, I use it often when one of our dispatchers gets frustrated when things aren't working out quite right.
Doug.
Well, Doug, I believe that if you checked the archives of this or just about any other toy train forum, you would find ample threads related to the CW80--my guess is that more threads have been devoted to that transformer, in detail, than to any other power supply in the long history of O gauge transformers. Not all who posted serious concerns to those threads could be wrong.
You asked "WHY do so many people HATE the Lionel CW-80 transformer?" Those are your exact words and the title of this thread. The reasons are many and well documented, I believe, and a simple search should easily lead you to the answers you're looking for. I opened the thread because I found it somewhat hard to believe that the word hadn't been adequately spread at this point.
I once owned three of them; now have one that resides in its box, awaiting some future disposition. So I guess I'm fairly well qualified--or was at one point--to comment on this item, which I did on numerous occasions in the hope that it would avoid seeing others subject themselves to disappointed in this fine-looking, but notoriously erratically performing transformer.
Allan Miller wrote: Well, Doug, I believe that if you checked the archives of this or just about any other toy train forum, you would find ample threads related to the CW80--my guess is that more threads have been devoted to that transformer, in detail, than to any other power supply in the long history of O gauge transformers. Not all who posted serious concerns to those threads could be wrong.You asked "WHY do so many people HATE the Lionel CW-80 transformer?" Those are your exact words and the title of this thread. The reasons are many and well documented, I believe, and a simple search should easily lead you to the answers you're looking for. I opened the thread because I found it somewhat hard to believe that the word hadn't been adequately spread at this point. I once owned three of them; now have one that resides in its box, awaiting some future disposition. So I guess I'm fairly well qualified--or was at one point--to comment on this item, which I did on numerous occasions in the hope that it would avoid seeing others subject themselves to disappointed in this fine-looking, but notoriously erratically performing transformer.
I am sorry that you have had such a disappointing experience with it. Used in the right situation, it is a good unit that is available online for great prices. I have given many sets to Nephews, Friends and my Son-in-Law, all of them love them and when offered the choice of the CW or a MTH Z series, to the last one picked the CW, all thought it looked like it should. My Grand Daughter has a BLAST with it. It is not a Powerhouse like the ZW, and you probably wont find many at clubs, but those weren't its target markets anyway.
When used more the way it was intended, it is a nice transformer, and I was curious why other people were so unhappy with them. Again, Sorry that it didn't fit your needs, but as a starter set transformer, it really shines, and that was its intended market niche. I did welcome and enjoy all the honest assessments and explanations of what people didn't like about it, that was a main reason for the thread, so that I (and others) wouldn't try to use it in a manner that it wasn't suited for. I believe that this is a good example of what the forums were created for, for modelers to help each other get the most enjoyment out of the hobby, while suffering as few headaches along the way as possible.
Smile, Trains are Supposed to be FUN,
lionroar88 wrote:Doug,Only one person has posted that Lionel HAS in FACT fixed the CW-80s... They even would replace them for free if they had been returned within the first year of purchase and the buyer was having problems with them.I don't have my two CW-80s with me, but there is an easy way to tell if you have one of the newer models.Brent
Thank You for the info, just curious, how can you tell if it is an updated CW? Mine work fine for how they are used, but the proto-2 incompatibility is a little frustrating admittedly.
WHY do so many people HATE the Lionel CW-80 transformer?
I think the poor thing started with a bad rap when it did not behave exactly like other transformers (i.e. delayed ramp up power, different "common" terminals, the need for a load to reverse some engines(especially Thomas the Tank). The problem was made worse by really poor technical support (i.e. some of the manuals were incorrect or did not address how to add accessories). One other thing is if the fan fails it is toast for most users. Finally the worse problem (in my opinion) was the batch(es) of DOA transformers that were shipped out in sets. Many a child opened his new train set on a birthday or Christmas day only to find it did not work! That was a HUGE bummer for child and parent and/or anyone that purchased a ZW without the warranty.
Personally, I love the way the CW-80 looks. I do not try to run accessories and trains simultaineously with it and only run PS2.0 locomotives at less than full throttle. The ergonomics make it perfect for use with young children and cheap engines...especially the Lionel starter engines and Beeps.
Jim H
p.s. If you add TMCC remote/command base ($100) to your NEW ZW and set the throttles at about half then you can use the remote to make any conventional locomotive crawl VERY slow.
Just the other day I was thinking how long it has been since we saw a "kill the CW-80" post, and that maybe I should mention it. The point would have been that the new revised CW's seem to be doing fine. However, I decided to leave sleeping dogs be. Silly me. So, back into the arena once more....
Doug, your question is a good one and I hope you won't back down. There are several people on this and the other major forum who never miss an opportunity to blast the CW-80. They refuse to acknowledge that it has undergone "continuous product improvement" more or less since it's inception, but the really big change came as recently as some time during calendar year 2006.
There are two ways to tell a revised one from one of the more troublesome ones. The certain way is to unplug it from the wall socket and disconnect all wires from the device. Then put the probes from an common household ohmmeter across the U-under-A and U-under-B posts. If you see commonality (dead short, zero ohms) you have a revised one. If, on the other hand you see zero ohms across posts A and B, you have an old quirky one.
Another way that SEEMS to work is to look on the bottom of the device and locate a date of manufacture of the form G0906 or 0903. I have been told that the ones with the alpha-prefix are the revised ones, but don't hold me to it. The passive-aggressive Lionel Customer "Service" technicians have told me (personal communications) that anything with a 2006 date is a revised one, but they always follow it with "I guess." Why do they have to guess, of all people? The "ohmmeter method" is best.
The problem with MTH PS1 systems is a real bother to MTH fans. One poster on this forum insists that PS1 will work. He is so adamant that I hate to contradict him but my sole example of an MTH locomotive will not run on any CW-80 that I have experience with -- despite the fact that I have tried everything that poster has suggested. As far as I know that problem has not been fixed by the new revisions, but I could be wrong.
Again, as far as I know the CW-80 doesn't like 50 Hz current. The Owner's Manual is clear about that, but I certainly agree that Lionel should have made it clearer to the Red Coats and others. In my humble opinion, Lionel has a lot to answer for Public Relations wise.
Lionel has been good about replacing CW-80's no questions asked during the warranty period of one year of purchase under certain limitations which they seem to apply inconsistently. The problem was, many (if not most) of the replacements made prior to mid 2006 behaved just like the original ones. In other word, there were serious design/manufacturing flaws and the replacement was exactly as bad as the original.
I'm not going to be tempted into another endless post on this subject, although I will try to answer specific questions. Most of my older posts are correct, with one glaring exception that I am indebted to ADCX Rob for pointing out: There is a lag in response with the CW-80 when the direction button is pressed and the loco moves from Neutral-to-Forward, or Neutral-to- Reverse. (Some have suggested this is to be gentle on the rubber tires on so many modern locos.) There is no lag in response when the orange throttle is used by itself although it may seem like it because the device only has limited power (80 watts/5 amps) to begin with.
I pretty much love my CW-80's, and I still don't even have one of the revised ones. I want a couple of the revised ones for my personal use.
Middle-of-the night UPDATE: in the original version of this post I asked Bob Nelson (lionelsoni) a question about his assertion that the 1033 and KW transformers had low voltage capabilities depending on how they were hooked to the track. I did not know how to do this with the KW. While awaiting his reply, I researched the subject in official (albeit old) Lionel documentation and concluded, after considerable effort, that he was correct that the KW transformer can be hooked up to start at zero volts rather than six. Doing so, however, limits the high-end voltage to 14. The "official" specs are: 1033, 0-11 volts; KW, 0-14 volts; and CW-80, 0-18 volts. (All voltages nominal.)
It also appears that with each of these hookups, a circuit-breaker (if working properly) or a "fold-back" circuit (in the case of the CW-80) protects the transformer; therefore, these are acceptably safe ways to power the track. If this is not clear, be advised that in some postwar transformers with multiiple output posgs, it is quite easy to hook them up in a way that the circuit-breaker gets bypassed. This is not good, and there is no warning. One needs to consult official Lionel documentation which is not always easy to find.
I have had 5 CW-80 transformers. Still have 3 and sold 2 to my brother. All are still working great, only had to replace a blown fuse in one. The rest all worked great, I have never had any problems with them. The blown fuse delt with a old whistle switch that I hooked up wrong.
Rock on,
laz57
Well, I guess that I'm not the only one who likes the CW-80 after all. Jim (jimhaleyscomet), you can run PS2 engines OK? Mine don't like the CWs.
Bfskinner, I can't get PS2s to work with my CWs very often, horns blow randomly and near continuously. But the PS-1 locomotives (diesel switcher, and a 2-6-0) that I have, not a problem at all, I can even get the couplers to work properly.
Hi laz57, I've seen many of your posts, enjoy them, find them interesting and even occasionally learn something from them (hard to beat that)
To everyone else, thanks for all the informative replies, whether you liked the CW-80s or not, I have enjoyed all the posts that dealt with specific problems, that was the point of the post to begin with, to learn more about the hobby, and hopefully avoid some of the mistakes that others have learned from.
DOUG,
Rock on and like you said, Smile, Trains are Supposed to be Fun,
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
My PS2.0 loco runs fine on the CW-80 as long as I keep the power level low. If I increase it too much then the horn blows constantly (and also sometimes randomly).
Boyd,
Please be more specific with what your CW-80 does and does not do. That is, does the green light come on? How about the fan? How have you hooked it up? What are you trying to run with it just a train, or train plus accessories? What is the date of manufacture? Evidently it once ran. What was going on when it stopped working? Have you talked to Lionel or your dealer about it?
Okay, when it first came out it had a defect.. something severe. Then Lionel modified it. That may or may not have worked. Some were sent back, maybe fixed, then redistributed. In addition the Cw-80 is not really a variable transformer it doesn't produce a pure sine wave and with some other products it causes trouble.
No point in loving it or hating it.. If you've got one that works, fine. If you've got a problem one you'll know why folks don't want them.. There are plenty of other transformers to chose from.
jimhaleyscomet,
Although some folks have reported good or partial success using the CW-80 with various pieces of MTH equipment with various versions of ProtoSounds; I have had no such luck with my single MTH steam loco with ProtoSounds-1, although two MTH RailKing GG1's with simple horns work perfectly.
If one goes to Google and keys in exactly: MTH transformer compatibility chart he will find a list of transformers that MTH has found to be compatible with their equipment. Many of these transformers are made by Lionel, but note that the CW-80, no matter what date of manufacture, is NOT among them; nor are certain other well-known transformers from various manufacturers. If in any doubt, give Customer Service at MTH a call.
I think it is a good rule to consider the CW-80 (Revised) as a starter-set transformer for Lionel equipment and leave it at that. It is not a "universal" toy train transformer. Perhaps it should be, but it's not. I think we just have to live with that, and if it causes one to "hate" the CW-80 then so be it.
I agree with bfskinner...if you are using a cw-80 to run lionel starter trains it works fine (if it does not fail). It will probably run most conventional engines as long as you have a lighted lock on. If you want to use it with any complicated engines you can expect quirks or problems (depending on how you define problems).
The CW-80 is definately a "starter set" transformer for Lionel trains and perhaps a few other conventional engines.
I have two CW-80 transformers. They seem to work fine with all of the Lionel equipment I've used on them, and even my RailKing Genesis with ProtoSound 1. The only locomotive that doesn't work on it is my RailKing SW1500 with ProtoSound 2.0. Even at the lowest voltage setting possible, the horn blasts continuously, and it's very annoying. I guess the answer to the original question is that many people hate the CW-80 because it is not very compatible with other trains, and sometimes it just doesn't work at all. My CW-80's work, but they don't run MTH PS2 engines, which is a problem for me, seeing that most of the trains I want in the future are MTH PS2. True, the CW-80 is not a universal transformer; it can run other things besides Lionel, but not all.
Other than PW transformers my first CW-80 experience was this winter upon receipt of my Polar Express set. Loved the smooth throttle handle, and ergonomics/looks in general. Didn't like the fan...Cheesy and distracting. Also didn't like how the least bit of arcing and sparking while your PW loco runs down the track and crosses switches will cause the "roll-back circuit" to cut out. Also 80 watts seems just a bit weak for my taste; I know there are cost and return on investment considerations for Lionel but a round 100 Watts would make a much more capable starter Xformer IMHO.
Also liked the soft start voltage ramp up when using the reverse pushbutton. I ALWAYS thought while using old post War reverser buttons that the instant application of voltage made for very jerky train movements even derailments. If I wanted to quickly cycle the E-unit the knobs on my "V" model could be twirled very quickly with all the benefit of analog voltage control.
Thanks for the thread too. Searching forums sucks.
Roland
My CW-80: P/N:6-14198
On the bottom of the sticker: Made in China 0704. I'm guessing thats the date?
It was one day I pulled it out and it didn't work. The green light comes on as does the fan. I tried my WC 4-4-2 and my DMIR GP9 8158 and neither would run. But my MRC 027 transformer works great for both engines accept on the 4-4-2 the reverser won't change direction until track power goes down to zero. So on the MRC transformer I have to shut it off when I change directions.
Boyd wrote:My CW-80: P/N:6-14198 On the bottom of the sticker: Made in China 0704. I'm guessing thats the date?It was one day I pulled it out and it didn't work. The green light comes on as does the fan. I tried my WC 4-4-2 and my DMIR GP9 8158 and neither would run. But my MRC 027 transformer works great for both engines accept on the 4-4-2 the reverser won't change direction until track power goes down to zero. So on the MRC transformer I have to shut it off when I change directions.
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