It makes you wonder if Jerry Calabrese is looking at these messages and doing anything about it. I grew up with Lionel and have only just started lookin at the MTH (I really like the CNJ Camelback). You just gotta wonder if there is anyone listening to the "little people" that drive this hobby.
I am the monster in your head...And I thought you'd learn by now, It seems you haven't yet.I am the venom in your skin --- Breaking Benjamin
Dave,I'm afraid that if Lionel doesn't soon fix their production and delivery problems they won't be around long enough to benefit from any of this.By delaying production and delivery of some very in demand items so they can mass produce inexpensive sets to attract new customers, they are pushing long time collectors like me toward other more responsive opperations.It is frustrating when you see something you really want, layout some $500 - $1,000 and are expecting the items to arrive around October and here it is December and you still haven't received your stuff, you check the shipping schedule at http://www.lionel.com and the items haven't even shipped yet... that is bad, real bad.Then you get your stuff and the darned thing is broken. I purchased one of the new NPCL General Engines and when it arrived it had a lose wirenut inside the cab, and didn't smoke, but it did drain the smoke fluid right onto the track! How lovely!So if this helps them fix their mess, then yes it will be worth it, but if the inexpensive sets suffer from the problems the more expensive items are suffering from, then this could just end up hurting them even more.
Only time will tell...regards,Brent
dwiemer,When I was younger (I'm 35 and still a kid at heart) you couldn't go into a department store without seeing a train layout. Even if just a simple 4 x 8 with an oval of track and some buildings. Places valued the train sets because they caught the children's attention and then the parents would stand and watch and remember their youth, walk through the door, not really knowing why, follow the sounds of blowing whistles and chugging engines and the smell of fluid smoke wafting in the air. They would stand in awe as the trains took on a life of their own, pulling scale tonage up sharp inclines, through cavernous ravines, around sweeping bends and over tall trestle bridges. They would bend down and pick up a box, set it on the counter, with the look of wild belwilderment still glazing their eyes. They would pay for the box and take it home. Take the lost treasure from it's still silent resting place and set it around the base of the tree. Within moments the nostalgia would return, sounds of blowing whistles and chugging engines and the smell of fluid smoke wafting in the air, as their own toy train chugged unter the tower firs of home.
Today there just aren't enough places willing to devote the space to a simple layout. It saddens me and makes my heart yearn for the sights and sounds of toy trains. So I venture down to the local hobby shop and watch as a the sounds of blowing whistles and chugging engines and the smell of fluid smoke waft in the air. I look around and find a nice little box. Set it on the counter. Pay for my treasure and clutch it tightly to my chest as I rush home to watch it whiz by being pulled by that monsterous cast iron 671 engine...
Dagnabit... I'm stuck at work and I yearn for the trains!!!!!Ah the joys of christmas!
Dave, very good points and very well said.
We train guys are not the target audience with this product. We already know where to get our trains. We know about the train mags and the discount mail order places. This is the first time in well over a decade that Lionel has had a nationwide department store presence, and the Lionel set is being shown in the Target sales flyers that come in the Sunday paper... that's advertising Lionel hasn't had in ages. That alone is worth something.
The last time I am aware of that Lionel had product in a store with nationwide locations like Target was in the early 1990's at K-Mart with a version of the NYC flyer set, as I mentioned my experiences with that earlier. Coming on the heals of the success of the Polar Express set, I hope Lionel does well with this set, and hope Target does too.
It is worth noting too, that MTH advertised starter sets at Sears. Yet, not one Sears store I stopped in had the products. Nor had any of the sales help ever heard of MTH. I recall one conversation with a Sears Assistant Manager that is worth a good laugh:
Me: Do you sell MTH electric train sets?
Sears Assistant Mgr: I've never heard of MTH?
Me: They advertise that Sear's carries their train sets?
Sears Assistant Mgr: Are these like wooden Brio trains?
Me: No, they're like Lionel trains...
Sear Assistant Mgr: Oh Lionel! Why didn't you mention that in the first place. I know what Lionel trains are, but we don't have any Lionel trains, but we should. I even had a Lionel train set when I was a kid. Boy that was a great set. It had a steam engine that smoked and... (he continued for a little longer talking about how wonderful LIONEL trains were.)
Too bad I didn't have a video crew with me filming that exchange.
It would have made one heck of a commercial for MTH!!
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
pbjwilson wrote:This subject seems to be bouncing around with talk of its small output transformer, catalog boxcar, price, etc. I just think its an odd price point for something at Target. I shop there for bargain prices and $249 is a hefty sum. I would have thought they would have tried to get a set for under $200. Certainly not an impulse buy at $250. I just think anyone thinking of spending that kind of money would be shopping around for a lower price. And Lionel has other sets that are less expensive.
This subject seems to be bouncing around with talk of its small output transformer, catalog boxcar, price, etc. I just think its an odd price point for something at Target. I shop there for bargain prices and $249 is a hefty sum. I would have thought they would have tried to get a set for under $200. Certainly not an impulse buy at $250. I just think anyone thinking of spending that kind of money would be shopping around for a lower price. And Lionel has other sets that are less expensive.
Ah, but there's the thing: the $249 retail price makes it look like a bargain at $225 plus a $25 gift card. And $225 plus a gift card looks like $200 to the buyer, except they have to come back into the store to redeem it (and then they get a chance to sell more stuff, and even if they only spend the $25 on the card, that $25 merchandise didn't cost the company $25 so they still profit). Welcome to merchandising!
The true test is whether these sell, and if they do indeed sell well this year (they seem to be), do they continue to sell next year? I think it's going to be an interesting couple of years. The Polar Express set being the surprise hit a couple of years ago reminded people that the Lionel name is still around, and slowly but surely the company is making itself more visible to the public eye.
I like what I'm seeing. The products they're selling don't interest me, and I don't need another place to buy Lionel (I've got three good hobby shops all less than 15 minutes from my house), but I'm not the target here. Right now the company just needs a good infusion of cash and a few new customers, and if this works, they'll have some money to hopefully solve one or more of their problems.
My local Target has two of the sets on display, both in slightly damaged boxes. I figure I'll keep checking back now and then, especially in the days just before and after Christmas, and see if those sets are still available for the inevitable clearance sale. There's a good chance they will be, since most astute customers who are spending $200+ for something like this will want it to be perfect in every sense. If they are available, I'll pick up one for my colleague at work, who has a three-year-old son.
I just ordered an Aristo-Craft starter set today to present to another colleague at work who is retiring at the end of the month. She has often talked about building a garden railroad after she retires, so I'm going to get her started. It's fun playing Santa Claus, but I'm not looking forward to the bills coming in during January, especially since I've bought several trains for myself this month and also bought an LGB locomotive for my brother-in-law, who is an LGB collector/operator.
Other than a TV what else sells for over $250 at Target?
I can understand the sets being sold at Lands End or Brookstone, etc. They tie into the Grandparent, traditional holiday thing. But Target? So will we hear......
"Attention Target Shoppers. Todays special, $25 off our Lionel train sets, now just $224.95."
That will be bringing them it by the droves
I saw the Target set today. It looks like a fairly decent value. It has engine, tender, caboose and 3 (not the usual two) cars plus the stake side truck, a play mat and some other stuff. One of the cars was a crane which I thought was fairly nice. It was on sale for $225 (Retail $249) plus you get a $25 gift card.
I would say it looked like a fairly decent value.
Jim H
Lands' End is still selling a 2005 Lionel Christmas Train Set with Wisconsin Central graphics.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Found this in the Brookstone catalog:
http://www.brookstone.com/store/product.asp?product_code=528638&search_type=search&search_words=lionel&prodtemp=t2&cm_re=Result*R1C1*T
RIP Chewy - best dog I ever had.
What Target could offer next season is a Christmas Soo Line Steam Set based on the real Christmas Train that is pulled by a Soo Line 2-8-2.
Went to the Target in Albany, GA, they did not have any Lionel trains. No one there seem to know what I was talking about. One problem of living in the "sticks".
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
Thanks for the compliment Jaabat. Yeah, I'd be darn (or should I say "dang") good at the task.
There is a liability (as mentioned by Jerry Calabrese himself) to having train guys themselves involved in the business, and that liability is the ability (or more correctly, the inability) to divorce their own wants and desires for the sake of the business. There are an awful lot of guys from the other forum that I wouldn't want at all having anything to do with running a display because they are too steeped in their own biases and would do far more harm than good.
Anyone who thinks command control is necessary to enjoying the hobby is totally unqualified to be promoting this hobby to newcomers with children. As is anyone who feels toy train and 027 products should be discontinued. As is anyone who doesn't have the patience to allow kids to touch their trains without worrying about the kids mucking up the supposed illusion of the "collectibility" of those trains. As is anyone who doesn't feel that new tooling and product development needs to be done on the toy side of the hobby, even if it means curtailing the development of new technology or new scale products.
I'd go as far as to say there are far more important products that should have been introduced before this new Legacy system. And the fact Lionel hasn't advertised in over two years, and has now bought an ad (or Neil Young bought it?) to clear up and defend Legacy could be as much an act of clarification as desparation. Lionel has a lot of money and prestige invested in Legacy, especially with the scale/command segement of the market that tends to be the most vocally critical.
I commend some of this new direction I see Calabrese taking Lionel. I hope he has the determination and courage to continue this direction and to put more into it once the "uncertainty" factor of the lawsuit is resolved, should Lionel be in the position to do this. Ready-Made-Toys has done more to "revolutionize" the hobby in the past couple yiears than the Legacy system is ever going to do, until the Legacy products and locos become the same price level as most other affordable products.
Train sets and affordable products are the real future of Lionel, not Legacy or high end products. If anything on the technological side, Lionel should be putting some effort into a compromised feature, basic beginner low-end type of command system.
Went to Target store yesterday in Lantana FL (Lantana Rd. & hwy. 441, West Palm Beach area) and the Lionel train set is in stock for $249.95. The track is Fastrac & looks like a CW80 transformer or I may have been more tempted to buy the set. There were three left on the shelf.
Lee F.
Marty, I agree with you on talking to folks in person. This is about as close as I can get to most as I know of no one within 3 hours drive who is into O gauge, and the HO guys are a bit on the quirky rivit counter side.
Brian, that is kinda how my experience went. I think the trains will sell themselves if given the chance.
Jim, the Southwest expansion set is available at our local Hobby Lobby. With a retail price of $109, and a 40% coupon, it would be a good deal for someone modelling modern O. Unfortuneately, Hobby Lobby sells the sets at about 150% of MSRP. I think the only reason the SW expansion set is actual retail is that the price is printed on the box by Lionel.
dennis
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
As I've said elsewhere, I think it's great Lionel sets are getting this additional exposure this year. Although this comes with the disclaimer that we all fully realize that operating layouts and displays go much further to the desired end result. Even knowledgable sales help can assist.
Years ago, when I re-entered the hobby, K-Mart was selling a NYC Flyer type starter steam set. I went down to the local K-Mart to get my set. Grabbed one, and a woman with a kid noticed and we started talking. The saleman came out in me, and next thing I knew there was a small crowd of people all listening and then asking me questions themselves.. Right then and there while I was in the store, they sold all their Lionel sets within the time span I was in the store. Granted it was a half dozen sets, and I took one, but still not bad. The store manager noticed what was happening, pulled me aside and thanked me. He thought it would take the course of several weeks to sell the sets... not the course of maybe 45 minutes.
Of course, I am passionate about this part of the hobby, love kids and want to see more trains end up in the hands of kids. I'd much rather spend time talking trains with real kids and their parents, rather than spoiled adults who act like children when it comes to this train hobby and what they demand be made for them. So I can speak honestly and convincingly.
I doubt minimum wage sales help could accomplish the same thing unless they themselves were already bonafide train guys with a desire to see kids back in the hobby.... not likely. Many adults I read comments from on the forums would be dumping on these train sets for not being command control or scale proportioned and would tell people there's no way there could ever have fun with just a simple transformer controled train set.
Kinda sad how many have actually forgotten how they got started in the hobby.
Trying to update my avatar since 2020
MartyE and Kodi the Husky Dog! ( 3/31/90-9/28/04 ) www.MartyE.com My O Gauge Web Page and Home of Kodiak Junction!
jaabat wrote:I was at a train shop last weekend and saw an expansion pack that isn't in the catalog. It was called the Southwest Expansion Pack. Probably for Santa Fe starter sets?Jim
That Southwestern Expansion Set is in both of the 2006 Catalogs by LIONEL.
MartyE wrote:Who here would volunteer to setup and run a train at one of the hobby shops or big box retailer so the staff could go about their business. I know I would. Probaly some shop rule against it but heck I'll spread the hobby however I could.
Marty, was a time when Lionel would pay some folks to set up and run trains. Saw a program in which the Old Man himself would hire kids to run trains at certain toy stores. In one story JLC had the son of one of his employees run a train at a toy store in NYC and afterwards, gave the kid some money and a train. I am not suggesting that Lionel would pay some of us, but I would volunteer. I think that Lionel or the other companies would have to "hire" us in that the stores would need some kind of "official" status for anyone operating these trains. Perhaps the pay off is that you get to keep the display set when the season is done.
Couldn't agree with dweimer any more! Saw a bunch of PE sets but nothing running! Nothing running = no interest! Run the thing, draw a crowd and sell the heck out of them! (simple idea works everytime!) Most stores now days won't allow the floor space nor the labor to run a train display. (gotta sell that oxy-clean or any other not available in stores stuff that's available at all stores) Floor space really isn't a problem as I'm sure a 4 x 8 would fit somewhere in a "big box" store. Labor is another problem when most store managers are regularly threatened with the bottom line....labor is busy restocking shelves not having fun demonstrating how to run a toy train. My how I remember toy trains at Christmas in the Chicago area in the early 60's. After that when Lionel went belly up, Christmas was never the same for me.
Funny story, I recently built a 4 x 8 show layout and now everyone in this small town is making plans to see the Christmas layout which is under construction now. It's not even built yet (it will be an L shaped deal using 2 4x8's) I already have people coming out of the woods (like Cub fans in a winning season) begging to let them help! Not to mention plenty of offers to run the trains!
Yes Virginia, there need to be toy trains (running) at Christmas
Last year, Dillard's had the Polar Express set set up around some village type pieces. The transformer was on, but the train was not rolling. When I snuck behind the fence and started her up and blew the whistle several times, a crowd started to gather. Within minutes, they were sold out of Polar Express sets and subsequently placed another order. They sold out of those as well. I relayed this story to Lionel and they responded that is why they require authorized dealers to have a working layout. I agree that they need to put the effort to have animation to the trains and that this will bring on the sales. Trouble is, that these retail stores value the floor space and the idea needs to be proven to them.
PS: I went back after Christmas and purchased the display for $125.00. I figure it was my reward for helping them sell.
In 2005 and 2004 the Portage, Michigan location of Menard's has sold the Wisconsin Central Train Sets. Both years the Wisconsin Central Train Set was up and running around a tree. The set is a starter set and easy to put together. All of the stores can have an employee or two set up a display.
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