Target is now selling Lionel Lines Train sets.

[Anonymous]

Drat!!! I took the dang bait again.

I still haven't learned that when certain people speak...NOBODY can disagree.

Dep

Dep, just do a bit of research before posting something like that... The reason train traffic East of the Alleghenies has dwindled is because all of the tunnels through the Appalachians are too short for double-stack intermodal trains.  Congress has just passed legislation to help the railways raise the roof on many, if not all, rail tunnels so they can accomodate double-stack intermodal trains.  The only one that I can remember that is not slated for raising is the CSX Tunnel under Baltimore - that would be nearly impossible to raise, lower maybe.  The first to be raised is on the Norfolk-Southern Line somewhere in West Virginia.

Any how, there have been numerous articles about this all over the web.

It is still cheaper, and faster to haul freight across the US in trains than it is via truck or ocean liner.  Ocean liners have to route through the Panama Canal (which it too narrow for modern intermodal ships), or they have to go all the way around South America... a trip that still takes over a month.

You are free to disagree with people, just do some research to back up what you are saying... especially when it is so easily refuted!

[Deputy]

Drat!!! I took the dang bait again.

I still haven't learned that when certain people speak...NOBODY can disagree.

Dep

[Jumijo]

Smart man, Palallin. Join the club.

[palallin]

Same story, different day.

Maybe it's time for this thread to get a lockdown too?

 

Naw, I'm bowing out.  I don't see any point in getting the thread locked. 

[Jumijo]

Same story, different day.

Maybe it's time for this thread to get a lockdown too?

[palallin]

Can you sell me a pair of those rose-tinted glasses?

I lived in Chicago for 56 years. I WATCHED the disappearance of not only the major railroads of the East (into Conrail and then Conrail disappeared), but also watched the consolidation of the western and southern railroads. There simply wasn't enough business to support all of them. I watched railroads go out of business left and right. Amtrak is well on the way to going under unless the government (meaning us taxpayers...the government doesn't HAVE any money...it's OUR money) pumps BILLIONS into it. Trackage all across the country has either been ripped up or is lieing dormant. I don't know what area of the planet you are describing...perhaps Europe?...but railroads in the US have been in a steady decline since the 80s. BTW...last time I went to fill up my tank...Diesel cost MORE than any gasoline for sale, INCLUDING Premium. Think about it...what's the FIRST thing a railroad does when it takes over a railroad...it eliminates the trackage that isn't making $$$. Anyone SEEN any NEW railroad track being laid in their area? And I don't mean worn out old track being replaced. Didn't think so.

Dep

 

You persist in universalizing your narrow perspective.  As a matter of fact, I can think of a couple new lines built in the last decade or so, so Chicago and the East aren't the whole world.  I just read a couple of articles the other day on the surge in hiring and the growth in business.  Interestingly, the mail today brought into our campus office a postcard from the UP calling for applications for employment.  They are hurting for labor.  From what I've read elsewhere, they (and the BNSF along with other roads) are planning on hiring tens of thousands of new employees in the next decade, partly to replace retirees, partly to increase capacity. 

Sure diesel fuel is expensive:  that's why trains are so attractive economically.  They use far less than trucks.  Think, yourself!

The over extended capacity of US roads is a fact here on planet Earth:  I can't speak for planet Dep.  You can read about it in the news, in the journals, on the 'net.  Don't expect me to do your research for you.

[Deputy]

For years now, rail capacity has been over-stretched.  The RRs can't keep up with the demand for them, especially in unit-train service, though their adding cars, locos,and even track..  Trucks and highways simply cannot handle what the railroads do.  There aren't enough trucks or roads.  The RRs are hiring frantically.  the trends in fuel prices are only going to support growth for the RRs. 

 They aren't disappearing:  they're growing.

Can you sell me a pair of those rose-tinted glasses?

I lived in Chicago for 56 years. I WATCHED the disappearance of not only the major railroads of the East (into Conrail and then Conrail disappeared), but also watched the consolidation of the western and southern railroads. There simply wasn't enough business to support all of them. I watched railroads go out of business left and right. Amtrak is well on the way to going under unless the government (meaning us taxpayers...the government doesn't HAVE any money...it's OUR money) pumps BILLIONS into it. Trackage all across the country has either been ripped up or is lieing dormant. I don't know what area of the planet you are describing...perhaps Europe?...but railroads in the US have been in a steady decline since the 80s. BTW...last time I went to fill up my tank...Diesel cost MORE than any gasoline for sale, INCLUDING Premium. Think about it...what's the FIRST thing a railroad does when it takes over a railroad...it eliminates the trackage that isn't making $$$. Anyone SEEN any NEW railroad track being laid in their area? And I don't mean worn out old track being replaced. Didn't think so.

Dep

[palallin]

For years now, rail capacity has been over-stretched.  The RRs can't keep up with the demand for them, especially in unit-train service, though their adding cars, locos,and even track..  Trucks and highways simply cannot handle what the railroads do.  There aren't enough trucks or roads.  The RRs are hiring frantically.  the trends in fuel prices are only going to support growth for the RRs. 

 They aren't disappearing:  they're growing.

[Anonymous]

 I hear alot of people not liking stores like target selling lionel and others but think guys many people get into the hobby by first buying a minimal under the tree set. Then they either get hooked or not . 

Thats exactly what happened to me. I always had somewhat of a fascination when growing up, just never moved forward with the idea. I got my Christmas set, and already bought expansions. I already want more!

[Deputy]

The film clip of people FIGHTING over that new video game system just disgusts me. But unless and until Lionel gets a similar response, they will continue to struggle. Since Lionel is the one putting out the stats on who is buying what of their stuff, we really don't know what the facts are. MTH has already admitted that their main sales are to geezers. And Lionel continues to put out high end locos and high cost advanced items. Some guys insist they do it just to show they can and others say to compete for the same segment as MTH. But if their main sales are the inexpensive toy train sets, it's sure a very seasonal market. Those sets aren't even IN the stores most of the year. So how does Lionel generate money the rest of the season?

Dep

 

[Anonymous]

 Dep to try to answer 2 things in the same thread ... I'm still struggling to get descent with the program . And some statistics I hope will follow through . I have 4 sons and one out of the four loves trains and scratchbuilding . The other three have no interest at all no matter what I do or say. I'm hoping the 25 % factor relates to the hobby in the future . I know it won't but wishful thinking . I hear alot of people not liking stores like target selling lionel and others but think guys many people get into the hobby by first buying a minimal under the tree set. Then they either get hooked or not . I'd like to see a basic  set in every store to get the idea in their minds . You know the old saying "out of sight out of mind " put them at the register with the batteries !  LOL  

[brianel027]

Interesting point Deputy. 30 years ago the northeast US railroads were in utter breakdown. Conrail was created to solve the problem. Conrail did what their name implies and consolodated and got in the black decades before they were expected to be out of the red. Today's major railroads are profitable and successful for the most part. There is no better way to ship bulk commodities, raw materials and containers, which the railroads now haul and do well for the most part. 30 years from now, who knows? But I can't see trucks and airplanes hauling bulk materials as well or as safely as the railroads. As you've pointed out in your own train buying Dep, the northeast US is a whole different game from where you are at. Train shows are common and I very often see real deals on postwar trains at yard sales... a couple years ago I was offered a New Haven F3 in what appeared to be darn nice condition for $150 with boxes from someone who was laid off and had emergency medical expenses. That was a deal but I didn't have the $150 as I was laid off too. The economy always affects things. But as the northeast has a long strong history of Lionel trains, it is also so with real trains. And the smaller lines are also finding their niche too. The former Reading Railroad under the current banner of the Reading and Northern now owns nearly as much rail as the original Reading did and is also thriving. Short lines are all over the place here and many have found purpose and profits. The Finger Lakes Railway is another that comes to mind with their NYC lightning striped copied paint scheme. As you sort of say, anything can happen. Outside of the northeast corridor, Amtrak has always had problems. The metro Boston-New York-Washington route has always been Amtrak's bread and butter and still is. The real railroads have had to figure out where their market is and then focus vigorously on that market. Same will happen with the toy train makers. I agree also that MTH appears to be changing their focus. Mike has said he knows his typical customer is older and by looking at their catalogs, we can now see much less emphasis being placed on semi-scale and starter sets. Rugged Rails is there so they can have something on the low non-scale end, but they've done little to expand or grow that line. If Lionel has a "name awareness" problem and Lionel is the much better known name to the general public, one can understand MTH's approach. Just as I understand Lionel's current approach with sets like the Target one. If there is to be change and success, then companies like Lionel have to make the effort first. An effort that has been ignored by Lionel for the past decade. - - - PS I tried to get the paragraphs to break here several times and it won't work. For some reason, everthing runs together despite making edits several times.

[Anonymous]

Dep -

I guess I understand your concern, but I do disagree. I dont want to hijack teh thread, as this might be a different subject matter, but while its true maybe trains arent as useful in todays day and age as they used to be, I think they will be around in some capacity, perhaps on a smaller scale, for years to come. A lot of cities still depend on trains for passenger travel. Here in my town I still see a lot of oil tankers for a company nearby. I still think there will be a freight use for trains. Who knows, maybe with the ridiculous cost of oil and gas, maybe steam in some form will make a comeback.

As for the toys, or models, I think they will be around for a very long time. Even if there were no more new trains to model, companies could still make old engines in different varieties. Old car, plane and ship models still sell all the time, yet the actual thing may not be in use any more.

Lets not forget one last thing, getting back to the discussion of advertising. One of the most powerful tools: word of mouth. I dont consider my self a "geezer" as I am only 37, but the "older generation", as well as mine, are the ones who will own these toys/models, and cultivate the interest in our children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, etc.

Lets not forget these children will grow and have friends. Someday I hope to have a wonderful layout, like I have seen from so many of you here in the forums. I can easily see my daughter once she is old enough for school telling some of her little friends "My dad has the coolest train set, want to come and see it?". Hopefully that interest will stay with them. It may not for all, but for some it will. Then in time, our children will become the "old geezers" and pass it on to the next generation, etc.

So I think the hobby is safe for a long time. Heck, no human alive for the past few million years ever saw a live dinosaur, yet annually thousands of dollars are made on dinosaur type toys. Why not trains too?

[Deputy]

I will probablty get heat for this thought...but I'm pretty used to that

I think Mike Wolf's strategy may be more realistic than most think. What will happen to the train hobby when us old geezers (I'm 57) are dead and buried? Good question. But I think an even BETTER question is what is going to happen to trains in general in the future? They've been bought out and consolidated so fast it makes your head spin. And the actual USEABLE trackage that exists is getting smaller and smaller. Amtrak is constantly being considered for elimination by the Congress. It's very possible that in 30 years there will BE no trains to model. They've been on a constant decline ever since the airplane was invented. With the interstate roadway, trucks haul most of the freight being moved across country. And airplanes take care of the lighter stuff. Trains could easily go the way of the dinosaur. They are well on the way right now.

Dep

 

[Anonymous]

"MTH sets were being sold at Sears a few years ago. Dont know what happened with that relationship, but I remember quite a few sets on the shelves at my local Sears. I think Sears also tried selling G scale trains about the same time. I think they were Aristo-Craft starter sets, not sure on that though."

That is very interesting; I did not know that. Thank you.

 Again, and not to go on and on about this, I think that for the long term health of both companies they have to spend some time on the big end of the funnel. Some of the kids who are distracted from the game boys long enough to develop an interest in the hobby will purchase the high dollar engines of the next half-century.

Most folks in their 50s or older in the hobby now had the benefit of living as kids when Lionel was a true household name in the way PS2 or XBox is today. That is no longer the case, and has not been for quite a few years now IMHO (I could as I often am be wrong).  

[Anonymous]

Dep - I couldnt agree with you more about the Nascar sets, how could they have slipped my mind when I posted. Those fans are just as passionate as NFL fans. In fact my father in law is one of those die hard Dale Earnhardt fans. The man doesnt own anything without a "3" on it. You could put the Earnhardt name on a rock from your yard and he would probably pay $100 for it. I could almost guarantee that he would buy an Earnheardt expansion set now that I have a train set, and say it was "for his granddaughter". Yeah, right . I should show them to him and see his reaction.

But those are just the type of people who would be good advertising targets and will buy things. He also has a Lionel train set from when he was a kid packed away at his parents house that he hasnt touched in years. After coming over to our house and seeing mine, he starting talking about it, saying he should look for it and get it out. So right there, you got your link between Lionel and Nascar, which may bring up childhood memories, and an interest in a hobby long forgotten.

There is also a channel dedicated just to racing, I think it is called Speed Vision, or maybe just Speed Channel, just as the NFL has its own network now. Those networks may command a hefty price for advertising, but what about other televison advertising opportunities? How about the people that are addicted to QVC,HSN and any other home shopping channels? I know some women that will actually set a VCR to record those channels so they dont miss something if they arent home or asleep. Throw a Lionel or MTH special on there, let the hosts do their 15-30 minute sales pitch, and you probably sell a bunch of sets. Just like the sports memorabilia, people pay ludicrous amounts of money for trinkets on these channels. Why not throw some nice quality train sets up there that would make great gifts for someone as opposed to $200 worth of knick knacks that will be boxed up, broken or forgotten in no time.

Lionroar - There are 3 Railroad Tycoon games out there now, the 3rd one is a few years old and supposedly the best. I find it fun. Its too bad Lionel didnt jump on these when they were released, as these were great sellers. The first one can be downloaded for free now. The newest one, Sid Meiers Railroads, has gotten praise for its graphical enhancement, but criticism for toning down parts of game play. Supposedly its just an updted version of the original Railroad Tycoon game. Personally I just play the modes where anything goes and you can build whatever you want. My kid loves seeing 300 trains running all over the place across the screen. And just like the simulators there are hundreds of add on's that people make. More trains, more maps, etc. Obvisouly with a 3 year old the Thomas and Friends add-ons are the most watched.

[pbjwilson]

This seems like a good idea to me. While I respect Mike Wolf's observation that his average customer is 50 years old, what will MTH do 30 years from now if younger people are not brought into the hobby? Or ten years from now, when there are no persons under 50 who grew up with postwar Lionel, but rather the MPC era only?

Lionel in the past has always used big-store trains to draw customers. My first set, way back in 1973, was one of the MPC Sears sets, engine 8310, which I still have in its original box. One of the few things from that time I have kept, actually. I also remember the sets sold at JC Penney's North Hills store here in Raleigh during the seventies and early eighties. That said, I can tell you that I am pretty much the only under-40 person I know personally who is an O-gauge enthusiast. I don't imagine others my age have a different experience.

These trains seem to be of good quality. I think this does both Lionel and the hobby nothing but good.

My two cents.

MTH sets were being sold at Sears a few years ago. Dont know what happened with that relationship, but I remember quite a few sets on the shelves at my local Sears. I think Sears also tried selling G scale trains about the same time. I think they were Aristo-Craft starter sets, not sure on that though.

[Anonymous]

This seems like a good idea to me. While I respect Mike Wolf's observation that his average customer is 50 years old, what will MTH do 30 years from now if younger people are not brought into the hobby? Or ten years from now, when there are no persons under 50 who grew up with postwar Lionel, but rather the MPC era only?

Lionel in the past has always used big-store trains to draw customers. My first set, way back in 1973, was one of the MPC Sears sets, engine 8310, which I still have in its original box. One of the few things from that time I have kept, actually. I also remember the sets sold at JC Penney's North Hills store here in Raleigh during the seventies and early eighties. That said, I can tell you that I am pretty much the only under-40 person I know personally who is an O-gauge enthusiast. I don't imagine others my age have a different experience.

These trains seem to be of good quality. I think this does both Lionel and the hobby nothing but good.

My two cents.

[Deputy]

 Dep - Did you go scanning the web ? Some sites have addons for free downloding . And I got all the updates I could . It is cool and I'm an old man . Use MTS or the full name and throw in addons . Downloaded a bunch of stuff !  

Hobo: I had MSTS a while back. Had just about every download and addon you could get. The downside is it takes up HUGE amounts of your hard drive. I liked the sim and was pretty peed off (along with a lot of other users) when Microsoft cancellel MSTS II. Have you tried uncoupling and coupling with the FRONT coupler? It's a real skill that takes a ton of practice. Other problem was some consists automatically uncoupled in the middle at random times. There's a workaround for it posted on some of the download sites.

Dep

[Anonymous]

 Dep - Did you go scanning the web ? Some sites have addons for free downloding . And I got all the updates I could . It is cool and I'm an old man . Use MTS or the full name and throw in addons . Downloaded a bunch of stuff !  

[Deputy]

We shall see I guess. I just think ANYTHING negative about the logo OR the name is NOT needed right now. Lionel is trying to become recognized again and they don't need folks saying things like "geez that LIONEL train game is sure a piece of crap". It puts a negative connotation on the name they don't need.
Then again...maybe if the word gets out to enough potential buyers that the game is junk, it will just disappear from the shelves.

Anyone have any REAL info on how well the Target-Lionel sets are selling? Any of them at bargain basement prices yet?

Dep

[Anonymous]

Dep,
The thing is you don't see THE Lionel logo anywhere on the packaging... so people may just think Lionel has died out and the publisher is just 'using' the Lionel name... that is what I think most people will 'think'.

Now when they go to their LHS and SEE Lionel stuff, then they may make the 'poor game' association with Lionel, hopefully not.

Hey, maybe this game was published by MTH....

[Anonymous]

Riddle me this, Batman:

Do the Lionel NASCAR sets only run counterclockwise on simple ovals of track?  YEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAA!

LOL!!!!!!!! That is one of the best posts I have seen in a long time!!!!

Turn left!!! Turn left!!!

Oh boy!

'Rubbin's racin'! If you don't like it stay off the track!'

Kinda reminds you of O-27 and Super O track, you could only make curves go one way, if you want to turn the other way you had to take the track apart and switch pins around!

[Jumijo]

 

Riddle me this, Batman:

Do the Lionel NASCAR sets only run counterclockwise on simple ovals of track?  YEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAA!

LOL!!!!!!!! That is one of the best posts I have seen in a long time!!!!

 

Turn left!!! Turn left!!!

 

 

[Deputy]

lionroar: You are partially right. The hardcore gamers will punish the designers. But the ordinary folks who Lionel is trying to reach and remind that they are still in existence, won't even KNOW about the publisher. They will recognize the old Lionel neame and buy it for that reason. That's what Lionel wants...right? And it's THOSE folks who are probably gonna be peed at Lionel for being stuck with a loser. 

I really liked Microsoft Train Simulator. It really gave the feeling of running a REAL train. The addons made for it are awesome. Too bad Microsoft yanked the rug out on any future development. TRAINZ was a foreign effort from Australia. It was more like a "toy train" layout. It was more user-friendly than MSTS, but it was also less realistic. I never had Railroad Tycoon. I was more interested in running trains than making them into successful business ventures.

Dep

[Anonymous]

Deputy,
One of the best simulation games of all time was Railroad Tycoon, I was hoping Lionel would come out with something related to Railroad Tycoon, but they didn't.

Lionel does not market or develop the game, and that is who the gamers will punish for publishing a poor game, not Lionel.  What this will do, hopefully, is as John said, plant that seed into peoples' minds that Lionel is not dead and you should check them out again.

I was at Lowes buying wood and paint for my command center.  While waiting for the paint to shake the guy behind the counter asked what I was building.  I told him a command center for my Lionel Train Layout.  His response:

'Lionel?  They are still around?'

'Yes, and MTH, one of their main competitors, is Head Quartered right here in Baltimore.'

'No kidding?'

'Yep... and both are producing some really nice stuff... you should check them out... there are LHSs around that could use some more business.'

'Where are they?'

'Downtown - MB Klein, Skyseville, Mt Airy, Ellicott City, Columbia, Rockville, lots of them.'

'WOW!  I think I'm going to go to my parents place and pull out all the old Lionel stuff my brother and I have stored in their basement.  Would be nice to put a small track up under the tree for the kids.'

See that is all it takes.  Whenever and where ever I am I try and bring the hobby up with people in conversation.  When I mention that I am going to be building a train room in the new house with a large layout, most people are very intrigued.  I have friends that can't wait for the train room to get started... forget the rest of the house and the 70" HD DLP TV I am buying... its all about the trains, the trains nothing but the trains!

[Anonymous]

 

Riddle me this, Batman:

Do the Lionel NASCAR sets only run counterclockwise on simple ovals of track?  YEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAA!

LOL!!!!!!!! That is one of the best posts I have seen in a long time!!!!

[Deputy]

 

Riddle me this, Batman:

Do the Lionel NASCAR sets only run counterclockwise on simple ovals of track?  YEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAA!

I'll let you know when my wife's TS addon arrives.

I think they do add speed to any train they're hopoked up to. More aerodynamic you know
I may have to install a spoiler on my Mikado!!!

Dep

[RR Redneck]

I agree the video game is a bad idea but there was a PC version w/ Lionel that was sort of fun but for a game console it would never compete.  I like the idea of Lionel T Shirts and Caps in Target.  They could of had a display with the starter set an Lionel "gear".

You guys are not alone.

[Jumijo]

 

Riddle me this, Batman:

Do the Lionel NASCAR sets only run counterclockwise on simple ovals of track?  YEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAA!