Excellent idea Skullie!!! Here's another one...
Lionel came out with the NASCAR trainsets. NASCAR is one of the biggest if not THE biggest spectator sport in the country. Even Presidents go to Daytona to say "gentleman, start your engines". The merchandise for NASCAR is unbelieveable. There is actually a show on Dish/cable (For Race Fans Only) where all they do is sell NASCAR diecasts and merchandise. The stuff sells out so fast you literally have to have your phone in your hand to get anything. This is especially true of the Dale Earnhardt Sr and Jr items. When they are selling a diecast they spend 15-30 minutes just describing it and they have them on little rotating displays. I swear it's better than a new car showroom!!!
I don't know if Lionel NASCAR stuff has been featured on there or not. But it seems to me to be an IDEAL place to display/sell it as well as the Lionel name and logo. I bought the Tony Stewart addon for my wife for Christmas and she couldn't care LESS about trains. Although that might change with "Smoke's" cars being pulled behind a Mikado
Dep
Virginian Railroad
Dep,
Maybe we should all apply for sales/merchandising jobs at Lionel! I've seen many good ideas thrown around in this forum. The only thing I can think of is maybe some of the ideas we've tossed around here are for some reason not cost effective, or perhaps too much legal red tape to go through. Advertising can get expensive. Maybe Lionel and MTH should start focusing more dollars on advertising than lawyer fee's and lawsuits.
Think of the possibilities for MTH for a minute, with their line of NFL products. I am new to the hobby, and until a month or two ago, had no idea these even existed. I am also a Pittsburgh Steelers fan so when I saw the MTH Steelers train set, it intrigued me. Granted, I didnt buy it, but the NFL is a huge entity and there are thousands of fans who are rabid about their teams, and will throw lucrative amounts of money at anything with their favorite teams logo on it. Last year when the Steelers won the Superbowl, it took about 5 minutes after the game for Sports Illustrated commercials to appear with their books, shirts, etc. Maybe a television commercial is too expensive, but imagine how many orders they might have gotten if all the people across the country watching saw a commercial for a Steelers train, especially in the heated moments right after winning a Superbowl. But how about advertising in the sports magazines? I have a bunch of magazines and newspapers from the playoffs last year, and unless I am missing it, I never saw one ad for any train. Just my opinion but I think they could stand to make a lot of money from sports fans if more were aware of their products. Then there is always the possibility that some of these sports fans would develop more of an interest in the hobby and potentially buy more products as time went on.
Just to add, I'm not trying to start any type of sports debate over whose favorite team is better than whose or whose would sell more, anything like that. I just used the Steelers as an example. I really think MTH has a lot of opportunity there, and a train set with any team from the NFL would probably be a good seller.
I agree with Marty's idea. But I'd take it one step further. Have a display of the t-shirts and caps. And if you buy the train and a hat or t-shirt, you get a coupon that gives you a rebate on the hat or t-shirt. So if you buy the train, you get the hat or t-shirt for FREE. Well...not really for free. Lionel can add $10 to the price of the trainset and easily recoup the shirt or hat cost. And it will give Lionel the ADDRESSES of potential future buyers so they could send them advertising of future releases and addons. Cripes...why do WE have to come up with these ideas. Doesn't Lionel have any merchandising people on it's staff????
P.S. I would LOVE to have an orange Lionel t-shirt with the emblem on front. Here's some examples of Lionel t-shirt designs
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/schradersrailroad_1927_29231011
I think another problem with the video game would be that most kids that play Nintendo, Xbox, or whatever, usually tend to play more action based games with intense graphics. A sim type game that requires more thought targets a more mature, or perhaps "older" gamer. I have both Railroad Tycoon 3 and Sid Meiers Railroads and while fun, they can take some time to learn. My daughter does have fun sitting on my lap watching the trains go all over the place on my monitor, but thats about it.
I do agree that apparel in the department stores would be a good idea; espeically in kids sections. I dont have a son, but when I walk through the childrens clothing sections, the boys dept. is filled with t-shirts and sweatshirts with pictures of cars, trucks, rockets, etc. Why not some shirts with trains on them, along with a Lionel logo? Throw an informational tag on there trying to sell lionel.com for more merchandise and you might have a winning combination.
I think Marty's idea of a running display with the starter set and gear would have been a good one. I'll bet a lot of people purchasing a set, might also be inclined to get their child a conductor hat with a Lionel logo on it, if it was readily available. I know if I were standing there in line buying a train and my kid was nagging me that he/she wanted the conductor hat to wear when playing with it, I would probably buy it just to quiet them down!
Trying to update my avatar since 2020
MartyE and Kodi the Husky Dog! ( 3/31/90-9/28/04 ) www.MartyE.com My O Gauge Web Page and Home of Kodiak Junction!
John: Contrary to what some might think on this forum...I am NOT anti-Lionel. I would LOVE to see them return to the glory days of the postwar era. I don't think that will ever happen...but I'm not gonna knock anyone's right to dream about it.
My concern, and that's what it is is a concern, is that Lionel isn't being careful about licensing their name. Just SEEING the name isn't gonna be enough, if the people start associating the name with JUNK. Do we REALLY want a crappy video game that nobody likes or will buy to be carrying a banner with Lionel on it? I think not. I don't agree with the theory that ANY public exposure is better than NONE. I think BAD public exposure would give Lionel recognition all right...BAD recognition.
Okay...what should Lionel make to get their name out to the public? Easy...notice how many people wear baseball caps nowadays...EVERYONE...even women. How about Lionel t-shirts in Target and Walmart and other big chains? The only ones I've seen for sale are in specialty stores online. There's about a gazillion things Lionel can put their name on that WOULDN'T tarnish it like a crappy video game would.
Follow me?
Somehow, I know you won't except it, but there are still thousands of people who think LIONEL is GONE !! They don't know it exists yet !! Lionel knows this !! Follow me so far ? !! Ha !!
Ok, you're followimg me, right ? Ok, When people see the name LIONEL, they're going to wonder, like it stays in the back of their minds, bingo, now they see that name again somewhere else, they mention it to some one, bingo again, someone needs a new, different toy or just has some idea where it could come in handy for maybe some little one, or some adult that tells someone they used to have a Lionel train at some time. Kids go through games like water, but the name Lionel will stick to some, no matter how bad the game was. That's it !! Let's see how you can tear this one up !! oH, ONE MORE THING !! Companies will use other companies to promote their product if they think it will work. Maybe they're trying something like Jerry C. said !! GET THE NAME LIONEL OUT THERE !! It will benefit other model RR manufacturers too !! I quit !!
John: Calm down!!
I didn't mean Lionel licensing a video game would tear down the image. I mean making a BAD game would, though. From the sound of thngs so far this one is a loser. Trust me...the word gets around FAST among video gamers which ones are no fun and which ones are good. I've had computer sims of trains (both Microsoft Train Simulator and TRAINZ...both are good in their own ways) and it's pretty hard to make a good train game for any type of electronic media. There is a computer sim, I think it's called Dispatcher, that simulates switching trains to make them run efficiently, but that's a pretty hard core sim mainly for adults. The Nintendo crowd wouldn't be too keen on that. If Lionel is gonna allow the use of their name, they are gonna have to make sure it's on a QUALITY product that kids will enjoy. That's what I meant.
dep
Deputy wrote: ----------------------------------------------Sounds like something that will tear down Lionel's image rather than build it up. Dep
----------------------------------------------Sounds like something that will tear down Lionel's image rather than build it up.
How in the world will that tear down Lionel's image ?
That's a good one ! Now you're taking on the whole Video gaming industry !!
I think Lionel thinks it's some subliminary thing that will get kids or gamers to look at trains. We have a ton of crossover hobbyists now days, that when they have a problem with people in one hobby, they simply quit & go to another hobby ! I know I have !! There are tons of guys out there unselfishly doing things to promote the model train hobby.
Oh well.......... ( 1st. time I ever used that little guy!)
John
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=1-5/qid=1166563730/ref=sr_1_5/602-9914397-8977447?ie=UTF8&asin=B000HKP86O
Lionel Trains On Track for Nintendo. Guess Lionel wants to cover ALL bases.
Lionel Trains On Track lets you build your very own train empire in the palm of your hands. Grow virtual cities by creating a train network between towns, develop trade, create cargo chains and matching supply to demand. The ability to research unlocks a variety of possibilities as you discover new trains, buildings and superstructures that will expand your railway empire and grow the size of your virtual towns and cities.Features:
And the reviews so far:
Incomplete game which offers little in return for victory. Choo choo.I'd expected a simple "train simulator" when I'd purchased this game. Trains starting, brakes screeching and ding ding. Little of those things existed in this "shipment simulator".In Lionel Trains On Track, you purchase trains, connect cities, decide routes and try to turn a profit. This is done by choosing what supplies trains pick up in one city to fulfill the demands in the next.You can also develop cities, but think of it more as an upgraded depot than a city simulation.Visuals really lack polish, as does a confusing interface where a lock symbol means "activated" and a dimmed button means "selected. Trains follow tracks inaccurately with what looks like a low budget animation staff. No 3D visuals where used save for the opening screen.Unless you are absolutely obsessed with the very idea of trains (and shipping steel and wheat at the press of a button) this is a title to stay away from.
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[edited for size]
Train enthusiasts might be impressed by the number of historically authentic engines in the game, and toy-train lovers will likely have a bit of fun building their own virtual rail line. Railroad Tycoon fans and econo-sim enthusiasts may also find some enjoyment in the game, as long as they keep their expectations low. The supply-and-demand system in On Track is a far cry from what I would call sophisticated, but it works.It should be noted that Lionel Trains On Track shipped as a budget title, and it mostly lives up to what it promises. Although the graphics are shoddy at best and the audio is practically non-existent, there is a decent amount of gameplay here for gamers patient enough to endure the learning curve and hardcore enough to not care about production values. On Track is a nice way to spend an evening or two for twenty bucks, but the majority of gamers will be better off downloading the free version of the original Railroad Tycoon and ordering a pizza instead.In the game's favor, if you absolutely have to have railroads on the go, this is pretty much your only option. ----------------------------------------------Sounds like something that will tear down Lionel's image rather than build it up.
SK and LS1Heli.... you guys both make very good points that have to some small measure been mentioned before by a few.
We seasoned train guys here on this forum are knowledgable of the top 10 Lionel dealers, who are all mail order businesses, take the bulk of Lionel's product, and are able to sell it at substantial discounts. This is something the local smaller Lionel dealer is unable to do. Go to a local shop and chances are that the Lionel PRR Flyer set is being sold a near or at full retail, which he HAS TO DO inorder to make a profit.
We train guys too often take for granted that the prices at Train Express, TrainLand, TrainWorld, JusTrains, Grzyboski's, Island Trains, Charles Roe, Grand Central and the others ARE actual Lionel prices WHEN THEY ARE NOT. They get big discounts based on big volume. And even these places advertise sale prices are for mail order only, not in store prices.
Target is not a Lionel dealer, but obviously has a price point that they wish to sell the set at. They are promoting the set in nationwide advertising outside of the model train media - something that doesn't hardly ever happen. That fact alone should more than justify the price, nevermind that the set is actually pretty decent. Plus as others have mentioned, you could/or can get the set and save $50.
Consider these retail prices (the prices the local Lionel dealer charges... not the mail order joints) and you'll see the Target Lionel set is right on the mark with these others:
Lionel PRR Flyer Set $199.99
Lionel NYC Flyer Set with Trainsounds $274.99
Lionel Thomas the Tank Train Set $169.99
Lionel Cascade Range Logging Train Set $269.99
It's amazing how discussed the Jerry Calabrese interview has been and yet some still do not understand what he said. One guy on the OGR forum was moaning that Lionel would stop making the scale products he wanted inorder to focus on useless toy trains. Calabrese never said that. He said in so many words that Lionel would not be so foolish in the future to make high end products that would end up as blowouts and would more carefully consider what the market can bear. He defended the Acela Project and the Legacy Big Boy, and those are very high end premium products, which obviously Lionel feels/felt they could sell at normal prices, not blowouts.
Mark my words, although I've never talked with Mr. Calabrese personally, Lionel is going to do as much as they can to stop making newly tooled scale products that have to windup as blowouts in order to sell. They will continue to make nice scale products, but buyers will now pay fairly for these newly tooled products, as they should have all along.
This Target Lionel set is right in line with what Calabrese said. It is aimed NOT at folks like US, but folks who don't read the mailorder sale ads in Classic Toy Trains and OGR.... folks that may not even know Lionel trains are still made. In order to grow the market, you have to get OUTSIDE of where the market currently is. That's exactly what this Target set does.
Regardless of what any of us seasoned train guys think, this Target set (provided as mentioned above, that the quality/workmanship is good) is one of the best things Lionel has done in some years. More important than Legacy? YES, absolutely, at least for where the future of the hobby (and Lionel) lies - and that's with new young customers.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
I actually specifically drove to a Target to see the set and I was impressed. First thing I noticed is that they are smart and getting the "name" out there again. The tender was labeled Lionel Lines. The transformer on the box said was a Powermax. The box, art and design was attractive.
Considering the hundered of $$ for a video games and all those are high-end gifts out there $249.99 is a steal for all you get.
Using the CPI inflation calculator, this set for $249.99 would have cost around 29.99 in 1949 which would have been your middle of the Lionel 027 set. If its not the CW-80 they complain about it's the price. There is nothing wrong with the price.
If you go to the Lionel website you can read an article that Lionel CEO Jerry Calabrese did with O-Gauge Railroading in their June/July 2006 issue. In the article Mr. Calabrese discusses how he would like to get Lionel sets into large chains like Target and Walmart for the 10 weeks leading up to Christmas so that a broader range of people can be exposed to the wonderful world of model railroading. His thinking is that if people get hooked by these starter sets, they will search out their local train and hobby stores to further cultivate their interest in the hobby. I for one think that he is on the right track, no pun intended.
SK
What kind of train is it?
Target Train Ad
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
Well, they'll do OK if they can sell a quality product. If it is full
of defects like some of their other things, then they will end up
suffering instead of prospering. Hopefully the new guy will do
a good quality assurance program. Let's wait and see how it
works this season.
Lionel is actually on the ball with this! Nice set. Lots of "play value".
Actually a COMPLETE train set out of the box. (Great for Christmas!)
The transformer is actually a "scaled down" CW-80. No accessory
posts. Maybe you might want to upgrade the transformer when you
go buy that extra track and accessories next year. Hope Lionel will
continue to offer sets like this to retail outlets in the future. Sometimes
old is new again. The price, whil a bit stiff, is still competitive especially
since they are selling a COMPLETE outfit. Maybe Lionel would consider
offering expansion packs to retail stores as well (ala LEGO-type expansion
sets). You know, track packs, structures kits, etc.
I forgot to add 10 sets per 5 Hobby Lobby store. That would be another 50 sets.
Jim H
Lucky you Laz! Down in Houston (Lionel "Manufacture List Price" land) the set at Target is nicely priced (was $225 onsale with $25 gift card) and has alot of equipment inside. I hope it pulls some folks into the hobby that then go to our hobby shops for accessories.
50 target stores with 3 sets each would be 150 sets/families. I wonder how many sets the Hobby shops sell each Christmas? I would guess about 30 sets x 4 stores is about 120 sets maximum.
laz 57 wrote:Seems like it is over priced for a starter set. I can get a starter set for around $140, at my local train shop in ELIZABETHTOWN, Pa.laz57
Seems like it is over priced for a starter set. I can get a starter set for around $140, at my local train shop in ELIZABETHTOWN, Pa.
laz57
Can't argue with that, Laz.
lionroar88 wrote:GRRRR... that isn't a crane car it is a derrick car! Well at least it comes with a CW-80! That is a nice feature. I think this is going to bring a lot more people to the hobby... look for Postwar prices to rise in the coming years as people start sucking up the excess that is out there...
GRRRR... that isn't a crane car it is a derrick car!
Well at least it comes with a CW-80! That is a nice feature. I think this is going to bring a lot more people to the hobby... look for Postwar prices to rise in the coming years as people start sucking up the excess that is out there...
Derrick runs the crane car. He's pretty good at it, too.
Jim
I just saw the set being offered at Target. I like it. Has any one else noticed that the 4-4-2 locomotive has some extra detailing added to it? It has wire handrails. A nice touch! You can see this in the photo on the target web site.
Target Site
Brianel wrote:
"The BEEP along with the Lionel Dockside Steamer are nice compromises between pleasing both the 027 and the more scale operators and it would be nice to see more products like this in the future."
I could not agree more! It's just a shame that Walter (RMT) wasn't able to get the new BEEFs and PEEPs out on the streets in this important selling period. It's not his fault, of course, but it is a shame to see those little buggers miss out on this holiday season. But I expect they'll be available in a rainbow of liveries by this time next year, so there is something to look forward to.
I consider myself one of the "little people" in the hobby, even though the amount of train stuff in my home (let alone my size) wouldn't tend to support that contention. Any true-to-scale stuff I have, and that's not much, operates on two-rail track because I just can't relate that third rail--no matter how well it is disguised--with scale model trains. Just a carry-over from having been involved with multiple scales and gauges over the years, I suppose.
pbjwilson,Thanks... that was my attempt at recreating the 'Build it... they will come' monologue by James Earl Jones in Field of Dreams... just tailored for Model RR. I grew up in Florence and Muscleshoals Alabama and Pittsburgh, PA. not all stores had displays but some did and those were the ones I enjoyed going to... My father used to take me to hobby stores too, so maybe that is where alot of the memories come from. I can still remember the display in the A.B. Charles & Sons Hobby Store in Dormont, PA. loved the cotton plumes of smoke from the burning buildings and the HO trains running on the layout. Also going to visit friends of neighbors and watching the Lionel Trains under his tree and in his basement. First guy I remember ever having a repair shop in his house! Actually his kitchen! My mother's cousin's Lionel Layout - first ever GG1 I saw in person, that would leave a lasting impression on any young boy!Maybe I'll even get my father-in-law to head out to the B&O museum in Ellicott City tonight... then head over to the Volunteer Fire Department and take in some nice train gardens... I need to get home and build the command center for the layout and get the 'mountain' built so I can put the tree up, so I can get the village built and then the trains can run!!!! And I can get pictures taken to share with you all. Dilemmas dilemmas dilemmas...
The problems with delayed deliveries extend well beyond the doors at Lionel. K-Line had the same problem when they were around and MTH most definitely has a major problem with on-time delivery. I'm always reading threads on how excessively late MTH is with products and how they continually alter and extend their delivery dates. New products with the latest up-to-date features tned to be more prone to delays since they are also from new engineering and new tooling. If everyone remembers, there were many delays with the introduction of DCS, as there were delays with the Acela, and the list goes on.
The delays with the Polar Express on the other hand, weren't as much engineering/tolling delays as they were with Lionel under estimating the success they were going to have with this set and not being able to get the production quantities they needed fast enough from the short hop across the Pacific Ocean.
I don't know who is suppose to be the "little guy" in the hobby but to most folks I talk to, the little guy is the toy train, traditional operator. Lionel may make a bulk of their profits from the sales of starter sets and related items, but they are hardly putting much attention towards those customers.
The past decade has been nothing short of a boom to the scale modeler. The train companies have bent over backwards to make items for this segement of the market. Even though the numbers I have seen indicate this is NOT the majority of buyers in the industry... but they do raise their voices the loudest and most frequently. They're the ones who have the time and income to go to YORK two times a year and confront the manufacturer/importer reps.
Somone on this forum spoke with Mike Wolf who said that he understands his typical custumer is in his mid 50's. You can see from the MTH offerings, they have slowly drawn back from starter sets and the semi-scale line of RailKing items. Even Rugged Rails is only there so they can have something to market in that area... very little has been done with that line.
I've said it before and so have others... the adult scale hobbiests have become spoiled and very demanding. The companies cater to them and still it isn't enough. Other than the prior, MTH Railking offerings, not one single modern diesel locomotive has been tooled up in the past couple decades for the 027 modeler. The only new cars for this market are the Lionel Waffle Box Car and the Lionel 11-inch Spine TTUX Cars.... that's it. Two new cars in 25 years. How many new scale items have been tooled up? More than I can count, but from what I read on the forums, still not enough.
Yet, every time I read some statement from a Lionel executive, they always seem to say that starter sets and related products are the number one area of sales.
Little guy? Who is the little guy? I do know that whenever you make some comment wishing for non-scale toy train items on the other forum, you run the risk of being totally ignored or getting trounced on. So if you ask me, the little guy is the 027 toy train enthusiast. Many of whom have said they feel more at home on this forum than on the other one.
And a final thought... when the RMT BEEP first was announced (which is from old renovated tooling) many on the other forum dumped on it immediately. It was only when folks saw that it was a decent little loco for the money and had the capacity to be upgraded did opinions turn around. And notice that this previously unknown company had such a hit with this loco! No surprise to me. 027 guys have been pateintly waiting for a product like this. The BEEP along with the Lionel Dockside Steamer are nice compromises between pleasing both the 027 and the more scale operators and it would be nice to see more products like this in the future.
Brent, very eloquent discription. Where did you grow up that you saw trains in department stores? Heck I'm 47 and and I dont remember seeing trains in department stores as a kid.
Although I bet I saw some slot cars set up. They were all the rage when I was a kid. Trains had faded in popularity.
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