Virginian Railroad
First I never expected the out come of bringing this thread back to life we have post 4 times the original number or close to that anyway.
Second on the point of 1945 to 1969 you need to add a few years as it was started in 1900 not 1945 but rest of your comment is probally true.
I feel a lot has come out of this topic even thou as a whole feel it got off the original topic to a degree but it all basicly is in line . But maybe it is time to let it rest again and we can pull it out again in about 7 years lol
If it still keeps going I'll probally stop in and read somemore
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
Deputy wrote:The main reason so many US companies have either gone under or moved offshore is because it's less expensive to build stuff there. And the reason it's less expensive is because there aren't the worker protection and benfeits programs that exist in the US. Are Lionel and other train products being made in sweatshops? I wouldn't be surprised. And Wallyworld is right. Most of those sweatshop workers would rather have those jobs than be starving to death. I think it's a mistake to try and apply US standards on foreign workers. Stop buying trains because of oppressive worker conditions and the workers will be out of a job and starving to death. Are they better off starving or working under oppressive conditions?
Anyone who has travelled outside the U.S. (for example Mexico, India, or China) and, better yet, lived there, would wholeheartedly agree with what Deputy and Wallyworld have said. My father (rip) said precisely the same thing 3 decades ago ago. He spent time in China. Everything is relative.
When you start with nothing, something can be a short term lifesaving difference and long term life dream. Start with everything, and something sounds downright inhumane. 35 years ago the concept of car ownership in China was absurd. What country is now becoming a focal mega market for petroleum? And guess who is ramping up their own automobile industry? And how do you think the citizens there are or will be able to afford cars? Some us may take umbrage at their working conditions. But look in the mirror. It looks too close to the good old USA if we take a few ticks off the clock.
Back to the loss of toy/model train manufacturing and job losses we have suffered domestically. I told my 87 year old FIL that I cannot picture an America willing to trade in part of our current standard of living in exchange for luring corporations to either (1) bring jobs back or (2) forsake the lure of the foreign job market in the first place.
Those who lived through the Great Depression and lived all this, full cycle, seem to better understand these economic concepts.
Jack
ps.....Doug, Marx, and Spanky. I still have your Evelyn Woods coupons.
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
To JimJimmyJames,
FYI
The outfit in China that builds much of the worlds Toy & Model Trains is "Sanda Kan". They are the worlds largest and are owned by the "J.P.Morgan Asian Trust". The pay may be low by American standards but it is a Union Shop. AristoCraft has had a tour of the factory posted on-line on there web page.
They build the trains in "G", "O", & "HO" for Lionel, Williams, K-Line, Bachmann, AristoCraft, and many, many others.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
I don't blame American Business!!
It's called the "loop hole" in Free Trade. Free Trade was designed to make it easier to sell and ship American Product overseas as well as import products we might need!
What it did was make it possible to build Factories Overseas, in countries with little or no Polution Regulations, and then ship the finished product back into the United States.
DMUinCT, thank you for the information in regards to the present state of model train manufacturing. It is heartening to know that.
You are also correct, in my opinion, of how "free" trade has had unintended consequences. For the reasons you stated, and more, I am firmly in the "Fair" trade camp when it comes to the trade policy the US should have.
As I like to joke, if we don't do something about our present trade policies, one day we can all sell each other pizzas because thats all the jobs that will be left.
Thank goodness I really like pizza!
JimJimmyJames wrote: DMUinCT, thank you for the information in regards to the present state of model train manufacturing. It is heartening to know that.You are also correct, in my opinion, of how "free" trade has had unintended consequences. For the reasons you stated, and more, I am firmly in the "Fair" trade camp when it comes to the trade policy the US should have.As I like to joke, if we don't do something about our present trade policies, one day we can all sell each other pizzas because thats all the jobs that will be left. Thank goodness I really like pizza!
Basically all the jobs left will be selling imported goods.
Lee F.
phillyreading wrote: JimJimmyJames wrote: DMUinCT, thank you for the information in regards to the present state of model train manufacturing. It is heartening to know that.You are also correct, in my opinion, of how "free" trade has had unintended consequences. For the reasons you stated, and more, I am firmly in the "Fair" trade camp when it comes to the trade policy the US should have.As I like to joke, if we don't do something about our present trade policies, one day we can all sell each other pizzas because thats all the jobs that will be left. Thank goodness I really like pizza! Basically all the jobs left will be selling imported goods.Lee F.
The future is largely here. I think if you look at the growth of jobs in what is called the service sector (delivering pizzas, working at Walmart), there has been enormous growth. .When you look at manufacturing, the future is already here. Just one example out of hundreds is there are no American made televisions, yet it is a common product. At the same time companies increase their profit margins by manufacturing overseas while being headquartered here. Their former employees have less income to buy their products, or, closer to reality, they stretch their credit limits.I think we are reaching a point ( the housing market as an example) where the nation cant keep borrowing to prop up an illusionary balanced economy. The household economies mirror the state of the government economy, which I cant believe is simply a coincidence. The end run around the lack of manufacturing jobs led to another illusion..workless work...we were all to be retrained to work in IT and then the IT bubble which proceeded the housing bubble occurred. I think an american based manufacturing firm making toy trains could still suceed by growing the market by actually marketing them, combined with less sophisticated products. It may be what we dont want or require but children more than likely would, or I should say their parents would. Most kids in relation to the sophistication of electronics are at a loss. I have seen this myself...they gravitate to my wind up trains rather than learn some abstract programming protocal...or the glitches prone to them. When it comes to young kids simpler is better. At $500-1,000 +per engine,this market is preaching to the choir, the already converted. What we prefer does not translate into the entry market, especially in this economy.As someone pointed out the true Lionel died out long ago, I think if I remember correctly, this is Version 2.0.If you count MPC, its 3.0 It's a trade name. If you compare products between MTH and Lionel, outside of command control systems Lionel V3.0 simply followed MTH's business plan..after MTH clobbered them in the market in terms of growth. Its easy to predict where this is going...I think at some point the market will not support both MTH and Lionel V3.0 based on the failing economic conditions...we may see a merger...Dont laugh..remember Lionel\Ives and the depression ot how about Hafner\American Flyer\Dorfan...? Maybe they can remarket an improved gold plated Prosperity Special...LOL
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Well I see two theories emerging. One is the "back to basics nostalgia theory". I think that one is severely flawed. If you think kids today...and I mean young kids, are too dumb to operate DCS or TMCC, then you aren't looking closely enough at what level of intelligence kids have today. They are learning computers at a very young age. The toys they play with are computers, and the games they play are far more complex as far as programming and what buttons to hit than any DCS or Legacy controller. Ever see that commercial on TV where the woman/parent says her daughter knows more about computers than she does? That is exactly right. Kids do know more about computers than many adults. Heck, there are guys on here that have problems with the relatively simple process of updating the MTH DCS system (right Lee? BTW...my offer still stands that I will update anyone's MTH DCS sysem for free. Just pay shipping each way to me.) I think theory #1 isn't gonna fly in the face of reality. One should not underestimate the intelligence of today's kids. Simple and boring can happen very quickly. Theory #2...the big merger.The way I see it, it would be a crummy deal for one of the mergees. Lionel is still having all kinds of problems after the takeover of K-Line. And American Flyer has been of questionable value as far as making Lionel money. Other than name recognition (which mainly exists among the baby boomers), Lionel really doesn't have a lot to offer MTH. As to Free Trade...that's become a popular fall guy for US problems. But if US unions and their membership hadn't asked for all kinds of expensive perks, companies wouldn't have felt the need to go overseas where the work environment is more company-friendly. Foreign workers are willing to bust their butts and they take pride in the product they make. US workers are in the 9-to-5 mentality of "doing the absolute minimum" amount of work they can get by with and not get fired. And they don't get fired because unions protect the duds along with the good workers. And then workers demand all those expensive perks from the employers. Why wouldn't an employer say "to heck with this" and move overseas??? And here's a news flash, US companies were doing that long before NAFTA ever existed. As Wallyworld said, no televisions are made in the US and haven't been for a long time. Japanese TVs ended up being more reliable and had a better picture and features than the more expensive US sets. The term "cheap Japanese junk" no longer applied to companies like Sony or Panasonic. They became the measuring stick for the best electronics in the market. The same situation is facing US car makers today. The cars with the best repair and least defects are all Japanese cars. Dep
If the train manufacturers don't make or repeat a bunch of blunders, we may continue to be the beneficiaries of true competition. Otherwise, consolidation will swarm over the industry, and the choices and prices we now enjoy will vanish. While there will always be a market for the higher end equipment and technology, I think the business model will have to focus on fostering the middle and lower ends of product lines to attract (younger/youngest) customers into the hobby.
After my granddaughter spilled a Coke on my daughter's laptop (RIP) last week, I don't see parents in general spending on the technology. What the 5-12 year olds can learn is one thing. What they can play with responsibly is a whole different consideration.
On the jobs portion of the discussion, I look at GM and Ford, for example, drowning in the contribution cost to the price of each vehicle for just the benefits and retirement overhead burden versus the Japanese manufacturers' cost burden for the same items. Anyone got a solution for that?
We are fighting with both hands tied behind our back, benefits and retirement costs in the one hand and salary in the other.
The Korean electronics, automobile, and appliance manufacturers are closing the gap with the Japanese if they have not already caught them.
Not a pretty sight for which I have no suggestions. Is the gun empty? We may be out of bullets.
Deputy wrote:Well I see two theories emerging. One is the "back to basics nostalgia theory". I think that one is severely flawed. If you think kids today...and I mean young kids, are too dumb to operate DCS or TMCC, then you aren't looking closely enough at what level of intelligence kids have today. They are learning computers at a very young age. The toys they play with are computers, and the games they play are far more complex as far as programming and what buttons to hit than any DCS or Legacy controller. Ever see that commercial on TV where the woman/parent says her daughter knows more about computers than she does? That is exactly right. Kids do know more about computers than many adults. Heck, there are guys on here that have problems with the relatively simple process of updating the MTH DCS system (right Lee? BTW...my offer still stands that I will update anyone's MTH DCS sysem for free. Just pay shipping each way to me.) I think theory #1 isn't gonna fly in the face of reality. One should not underestimate the intelligence of today's kids. Simple and boring can happen very quickly. Theory #2...the big merger.The way I see it, it would be a crummy deal for one of the mergees. Lionel is still having all kinds of problems after the takeover of K-Line. And American Flyer has been of questionable value as far as making Lionel money. Other than name recognition (which mainly exists among the baby boomers), Lionel really doesn't have a lot to offer MTH. As to Free Trade...that's become a popular fall guy for US problems. But if US unions and their membership hadn't asked for all kinds of expensive perks, companies wouldn't have felt the need to go overseas where the work environment is more company-friendly. Foreign workers are willing to bust their butts and they take pride in the product they make. US workers are in the 9-to-5 mentality of "doing the absolute minimum" amount of work they can get by with and not get fired. And they don't get fired because unions protect the duds along with the good workers. And then workers demand all those expensive perks from the employers. Why wouldn't an employer say "to heck with this" and move overseas??? And here's a news flash, US companies were doing that long before NAFTA ever existed. As Wallyworld said, no televisions are made in the US and haven't been for a long time. Japanese TVs ended up being more reliable and had a better picture and features than the more expensive US sets. The term "cheap Japanese junk" no longer applied to companies like Sony or Panasonic. They became the measuring stick for the best electronics in the market. The same situation is facing US car makers today. The cars with the best repair and least defects are all Japanese cars. Dep
Well, its always interesting (at least to me) to go back and forth. I can of course speak only for myself. My exposure to toy trains most definitely preceeded my ability to spell let alone operate a command center. Perhaps this fascination with moving things and manipulating them begins at a much earlier age than you are familiar with. I shorted out a Marx train at the age of four. Perhaps this early exposure creates a link that can begin and follow through developmental stages. My next set was an American Flyer with operating attachments around the age of six. I honestly consider it is not nostalgia but the current market is the result of fifty plus year old momentum beginning at an early age when culturally, trains were an interface with daily life.My young grandchildren like to stuff beanie babies into tin plate gondolas in an imaginary world where DCS is not a necessity.
As far as unions , free trade et al...regardless, we are in a shrinking economy in terms of growth etc. We are perhaps ironically, the victum of our own success...evengelising capitalism to those who listened and are now selling to us rather than the other way round.Its just the way it is.
As far as mergers...I have learned its risky to never say never as history of the toy industry proves.
I think another issue is we need a genius like Louis Marx, A.C Gilbert or Mr Lionel to stretch the potential of the market rather than backing it into a specialised niche.
Jack: Accidents can happen to any age from 6-60. I know...I got Coke in the keyboard of my desktop one time. Many times the postwar locos that got damaged were damaged because they were run too fast and flew off the tracks, or the "Adams Family" scenario of recreating the great train wreck. The good thing about DCS is you can limit the amount of power the loco gets so that it won't fly off the track. Now, if a kid figures out how to override that limitation, then junior doesn't get to play with his toy train that year. With stuff this expensive harsh lessons must be enforced. Responsibility is always something that should be taught at an early age by parents. Unfortunately, too may parents today coddle the heck out of their kids and the kids never get punished. Or the punishment doesn't last more than 5 minutes. Can't blame the trains if the parents don't teach the kids the value of the dollar and what happens if they break them by neglect or misuse. My first toy train was my only toy train until I turned 30 and was able to afford better stuff. It lasted me a very long time. Right up into high school, when my parents gave it away to another kid (who was handicapped) because I no longer had interest in it. On the benefits and jobs things...with you 100%. I don't know the solution either. But I don't think isolationism and huge tariffs are the answer.
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