Jack: Accidents can happen to any age from 6-60. I know...I got Coke in the keyboard of my desktop one time. Many times the postwar locos that got damaged were damaged because they were run too fast and flew off the tracks, or the "Adams Family" scenario of recreating the great train wreck. The good thing about DCS is you can limit the amount of power the loco gets so that it won't fly off the track. Now, if a kid figures out how to override that limitation, then junior doesn't get to play with his toy train that year. With stuff this expensive harsh lessons must be enforced. Responsibility is always something that should be taught at an early age by parents. Unfortunately, too may parents today coddle the heck out of their kids and the kids never get punished. Or the punishment doesn't last more than 5 minutes. Can't blame the trains if the parents don't teach the kids the value of the dollar and what happens if they break them by neglect or misuse. My first toy train was my only toy train until I turned 30 and was able to afford better stuff. It lasted me a very long time. Right up into high school, when my parents gave it away to another kid (who was handicapped) because I no longer had interest in it. On the benefits and jobs things...with you 100%. I don't know the solution either. But I don't think isolationism and huge tariffs are the answer.
Virginian Railroad
Deputy wrote:Well I see two theories emerging. One is the "back to basics nostalgia theory". I think that one is severely flawed. If you think kids today...and I mean young kids, are too dumb to operate DCS or TMCC, then you aren't looking closely enough at what level of intelligence kids have today. They are learning computers at a very young age. The toys they play with are computers, and the games they play are far more complex as far as programming and what buttons to hit than any DCS or Legacy controller. Ever see that commercial on TV where the woman/parent says her daughter knows more about computers than she does? That is exactly right. Kids do know more about computers than many adults. Heck, there are guys on here that have problems with the relatively simple process of updating the MTH DCS system (right Lee? BTW...my offer still stands that I will update anyone's MTH DCS sysem for free. Just pay shipping each way to me.) I think theory #1 isn't gonna fly in the face of reality. One should not underestimate the intelligence of today's kids. Simple and boring can happen very quickly. Theory #2...the big merger.The way I see it, it would be a crummy deal for one of the mergees. Lionel is still having all kinds of problems after the takeover of K-Line. And American Flyer has been of questionable value as far as making Lionel money. Other than name recognition (which mainly exists among the baby boomers), Lionel really doesn't have a lot to offer MTH. As to Free Trade...that's become a popular fall guy for US problems. But if US unions and their membership hadn't asked for all kinds of expensive perks, companies wouldn't have felt the need to go overseas where the work environment is more company-friendly. Foreign workers are willing to bust their butts and they take pride in the product they make. US workers are in the 9-to-5 mentality of "doing the absolute minimum" amount of work they can get by with and not get fired. And they don't get fired because unions protect the duds along with the good workers. And then workers demand all those expensive perks from the employers. Why wouldn't an employer say "to heck with this" and move overseas??? And here's a news flash, US companies were doing that long before NAFTA ever existed. As Wallyworld said, no televisions are made in the US and haven't been for a long time. Japanese TVs ended up being more reliable and had a better picture and features than the more expensive US sets. The term "cheap Japanese junk" no longer applied to companies like Sony or Panasonic. They became the measuring stick for the best electronics in the market. The same situation is facing US car makers today. The cars with the best repair and least defects are all Japanese cars. Dep
Well I see two theories emerging. One is the "back to basics nostalgia theory". I think that one is severely flawed. If you think kids today...and I mean young kids, are too dumb to operate DCS or TMCC, then you aren't looking closely enough at what level of intelligence kids have today. They are learning computers at a very young age. The toys they play with are computers, and the games they play are far more complex as far as programming and what buttons to hit than any DCS or Legacy controller. Ever see that commercial on TV where the woman/parent says her daughter knows more about computers than she does? That is exactly right. Kids do know more about computers than many adults. Heck, there are guys on here that have problems with the relatively simple process of updating the MTH DCS system (right Lee? BTW...my offer still stands that I will update anyone's MTH DCS sysem for free. Just pay shipping each way to me.) I think theory #1 isn't gonna fly in the face of reality. One should not underestimate the intelligence of today's kids. Simple and boring can happen very quickly. Theory #2...the big merger.The way I see it, it would be a crummy deal for one of the mergees. Lionel is still having all kinds of problems after the takeover of K-Line. And American Flyer has been of questionable value as far as making Lionel money. Other than name recognition (which mainly exists among the baby boomers), Lionel really doesn't have a lot to offer MTH. As to Free Trade...that's become a popular fall guy for US problems. But if US unions and their membership hadn't asked for all kinds of expensive perks, companies wouldn't have felt the need to go overseas where the work environment is more company-friendly. Foreign workers are willing to bust their butts and they take pride in the product they make. US workers are in the 9-to-5 mentality of "doing the absolute minimum" amount of work they can get by with and not get fired. And they don't get fired because unions protect the duds along with the good workers. And then workers demand all those expensive perks from the employers. Why wouldn't an employer say "to heck with this" and move overseas??? And here's a news flash, US companies were doing that long before NAFTA ever existed. As Wallyworld said, no televisions are made in the US and haven't been for a long time. Japanese TVs ended up being more reliable and had a better picture and features than the more expensive US sets. The term "cheap Japanese junk" no longer applied to companies like Sony or Panasonic. They became the measuring stick for the best electronics in the market. The same situation is facing US car makers today. The cars with the best repair and least defects are all Japanese cars. Dep
Well, its always interesting (at least to me) to go back and forth. I can of course speak only for myself. My exposure to toy trains most definitely preceeded my ability to spell let alone operate a command center. Perhaps this fascination with moving things and manipulating them begins at a much earlier age than you are familiar with. I shorted out a Marx train at the age of four. Perhaps this early exposure creates a link that can begin and follow through developmental stages. My next set was an American Flyer with operating attachments around the age of six. I honestly consider it is not nostalgia but the current market is the result of fifty plus year old momentum beginning at an early age when culturally, trains were an interface with daily life.My young grandchildren like to stuff beanie babies into tin plate gondolas in an imaginary world where DCS is not a necessity.
As far as unions , free trade et al...regardless, we are in a shrinking economy in terms of growth etc. We are perhaps ironically, the victum of our own success...evengelising capitalism to those who listened and are now selling to us rather than the other way round.Its just the way it is.
As far as mergers...I have learned its risky to never say never as history of the toy industry proves.
I think another issue is we need a genius like Louis Marx, A.C Gilbert or Mr Lionel to stretch the potential of the market rather than backing it into a specialised niche.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
If the train manufacturers don't make or repeat a bunch of blunders, we may continue to be the beneficiaries of true competition. Otherwise, consolidation will swarm over the industry, and the choices and prices we now enjoy will vanish. While there will always be a market for the higher end equipment and technology, I think the business model will have to focus on fostering the middle and lower ends of product lines to attract (younger/youngest) customers into the hobby.
After my granddaughter spilled a Coke on my daughter's laptop (RIP) last week, I don't see parents in general spending on the technology. What the 5-12 year olds can learn is one thing. What they can play with responsibly is a whole different consideration.
On the jobs portion of the discussion, I look at GM and Ford, for example, drowning in the contribution cost to the price of each vehicle for just the benefits and retirement overhead burden versus the Japanese manufacturers' cost burden for the same items. Anyone got a solution for that?
We are fighting with both hands tied behind our back, benefits and retirement costs in the one hand and salary in the other.
The Korean electronics, automobile, and appliance manufacturers are closing the gap with the Japanese if they have not already caught them.
Not a pretty sight for which I have no suggestions. Is the gun empty? We may be out of bullets.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
phillyreading wrote: JimJimmyJames wrote: DMUinCT, thank you for the information in regards to the present state of model train manufacturing. It is heartening to know that.You are also correct, in my opinion, of how "free" trade has had unintended consequences. For the reasons you stated, and more, I am firmly in the "Fair" trade camp when it comes to the trade policy the US should have.As I like to joke, if we don't do something about our present trade policies, one day we can all sell each other pizzas because thats all the jobs that will be left. Thank goodness I really like pizza! Basically all the jobs left will be selling imported goods.Lee F.
JimJimmyJames wrote: DMUinCT, thank you for the information in regards to the present state of model train manufacturing. It is heartening to know that.You are also correct, in my opinion, of how "free" trade has had unintended consequences. For the reasons you stated, and more, I am firmly in the "Fair" trade camp when it comes to the trade policy the US should have.As I like to joke, if we don't do something about our present trade policies, one day we can all sell each other pizzas because thats all the jobs that will be left. Thank goodness I really like pizza!
DMUinCT, thank you for the information in regards to the present state of model train manufacturing. It is heartening to know that.
You are also correct, in my opinion, of how "free" trade has had unintended consequences. For the reasons you stated, and more, I am firmly in the "Fair" trade camp when it comes to the trade policy the US should have.
As I like to joke, if we don't do something about our present trade policies, one day we can all sell each other pizzas because thats all the jobs that will be left.
Thank goodness I really like pizza!
Basically all the jobs left will be selling imported goods.
Lee F.
The future is largely here. I think if you look at the growth of jobs in what is called the service sector (delivering pizzas, working at Walmart), there has been enormous growth. .When you look at manufacturing, the future is already here. Just one example out of hundreds is there are no American made televisions, yet it is a common product. At the same time companies increase their profit margins by manufacturing overseas while being headquartered here. Their former employees have less income to buy their products, or, closer to reality, they stretch their credit limits.I think we are reaching a point ( the housing market as an example) where the nation cant keep borrowing to prop up an illusionary balanced economy. The household economies mirror the state of the government economy, which I cant believe is simply a coincidence. The end run around the lack of manufacturing jobs led to another illusion..workless work...we were all to be retrained to work in IT and then the IT bubble which proceeded the housing bubble occurred. I think an american based manufacturing firm making toy trains could still suceed by growing the market by actually marketing them, combined with less sophisticated products. It may be what we dont want or require but children more than likely would, or I should say their parents would. Most kids in relation to the sophistication of electronics are at a loss. I have seen this myself...they gravitate to my wind up trains rather than learn some abstract programming protocal...or the glitches prone to them. When it comes to young kids simpler is better. At $500-1,000 +per engine,this market is preaching to the choir, the already converted. What we prefer does not translate into the entry market, especially in this economy.As someone pointed out the true Lionel died out long ago, I think if I remember correctly, this is Version 2.0.If you count MPC, its 3.0 It's a trade name. If you compare products between MTH and Lionel, outside of command control systems Lionel V3.0 simply followed MTH's business plan..after MTH clobbered them in the market in terms of growth. Its easy to predict where this is going...I think at some point the market will not support both MTH and Lionel V3.0 based on the failing economic conditions...we may see a merger...Dont laugh..remember Lionel\Ives and the depression ot how about Hafner\American Flyer\Dorfan...? Maybe they can remarket an improved gold plated Prosperity Special...LOL
I don't blame American Business!!
It's called the "loop hole" in Free Trade. Free Trade was designed to make it easier to sell and ship American Product overseas as well as import products we might need!
What it did was make it possible to build Factories Overseas, in countries with little or no Polution Regulations, and then ship the finished product back into the United States.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
To JimJimmyJames,
FYI
The outfit in China that builds much of the worlds Toy & Model Trains is "Sanda Kan". They are the worlds largest and are owned by the "J.P.Morgan Asian Trust". The pay may be low by American standards but it is a Union Shop. AristoCraft has had a tour of the factory posted on-line on there web page.
They build the trains in "G", "O", & "HO" for Lionel, Williams, K-Line, Bachmann, AristoCraft, and many, many others.
Deputy wrote:The main reason so many US companies have either gone under or moved offshore is because it's less expensive to build stuff there. And the reason it's less expensive is because there aren't the worker protection and benfeits programs that exist in the US. Are Lionel and other train products being made in sweatshops? I wouldn't be surprised. And Wallyworld is right. Most of those sweatshop workers would rather have those jobs than be starving to death. I think it's a mistake to try and apply US standards on foreign workers. Stop buying trains because of oppressive worker conditions and the workers will be out of a job and starving to death. Are they better off starving or working under oppressive conditions?
Anyone who has travelled outside the U.S. (for example Mexico, India, or China) and, better yet, lived there, would wholeheartedly agree with what Deputy and Wallyworld have said. My father (rip) said precisely the same thing 3 decades ago ago. He spent time in China. Everything is relative.
When you start with nothing, something can be a short term lifesaving difference and long term life dream. Start with everything, and something sounds downright inhumane. 35 years ago the concept of car ownership in China was absurd. What country is now becoming a focal mega market for petroleum? And guess who is ramping up their own automobile industry? And how do you think the citizens there are or will be able to afford cars? Some us may take umbrage at their working conditions. But look in the mirror. It looks too close to the good old USA if we take a few ticks off the clock.
Back to the loss of toy/model train manufacturing and job losses we have suffered domestically. I told my 87 year old FIL that I cannot picture an America willing to trade in part of our current standard of living in exchange for luring corporations to either (1) bring jobs back or (2) forsake the lure of the foreign job market in the first place.
Those who lived through the Great Depression and lived all this, full cycle, seem to better understand these economic concepts.
ps.....Doug, Marx, and Spanky. I still have your Evelyn Woods coupons.
First I never expected the out come of bringing this thread back to life we have post 4 times the original number or close to that anyway.
Second on the point of 1945 to 1969 you need to add a few years as it was started in 1900 not 1945 but rest of your comment is probally true.
I feel a lot has come out of this topic even thou as a whole feel it got off the original topic to a degree but it all basicly is in line . But maybe it is time to let it rest again and we can pull it out again in about 7 years lol
If it still keeps going I'll probally stop in and read somemore
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
JimJimmyJames wrote: Deputy wrote: So Lionel and MTH and others have their trains built by sweatshops overseas that work 24 hours a day and pay peanuts to the employees. Anyone want to throw away their new Big Boy or top-of-the-line MTH loco? I didn't think so That statement makes me sad. Actually, I care that someone doesn't have adequate pay, benefits, safety or environmental protection. I care that my products may have been built under slave type conditions. And I think we should expect all of humanity to have the same work conditions we have. These companies we buy from should be made to respect all of their workers, not just their American ones. If this cannot be done, maybe we don't deserve to have "Big Boys", etc. They are just toy trains after all.I buy from MTH, Lionel, etc. but certainly not if it was implicit that their products are made under the conditions you describe.
Deputy wrote: So Lionel and MTH and others have their trains built by sweatshops overseas that work 24 hours a day and pay peanuts to the employees. Anyone want to throw away their new Big Boy or top-of-the-line MTH loco? I didn't think so
That statement makes me sad. Actually, I care that someone doesn't have adequate pay, benefits, safety or environmental protection. I care that my products may have been built under slave type conditions. And I think we should expect all of humanity to have the same work conditions we have. These companies we buy from should be made to respect all of their workers, not just their American ones. If this cannot be done, maybe we don't deserve to have "Big Boys", etc. They are just toy trains after all.
I buy from MTH, Lionel, etc. but certainly not if it was implicit that their products are made under the conditions you describe.
Not to complicate the issue here but I think if you look at the history of the Industrial Revolution, and recognise China is a comparative youngster in an emerging economy in relation to our own early history of farm workers migrating to urban areas, poor working conditions and low pay in mills. mines etc, I think this situation of exporting manufacturing trains will run it's own due course in relation to their economys growth. In others words it will level off. In the interim if you asked a urban factory worker in China about conditions they would tell you it's preferable to conditions in the backwater. I had posted a question here about Realtrax geometry and also sent an e mail to MTH. Over a hundred folks viewed the question here. No answer. Yesterday I received an e mail from MTH which several included photgraphs of applications, parts lists and descriptions.I saved some gas. So, in fairness to the issues of customer service and the internet versus hobby shops, as I suspected the truth lies in the middle. Each has its advantages and disadvantages and is prone to being weighed in regard to what you are looking for. I, for one, would be interested to know if the makers of toy trains in Europe are following the same tact..of exporting production to China, etc. If so, the reason is obvious, if not, why not? There seems to be alot of consolidations, mergers going on over there. The irony in this is that our dollar is so weak, to buy offshore,( unless you have deep pockets) the cost has gone through the roof. Since we live in a global economy, I am hoping someone from the UK comments....on the market conditions there.
Bob Keller
DJSpanky wrote: dougdagrump wrote:Have we beaten this dead horse enuff that it can left to be buried in peace.Well, someone needs to mark their calendar so that this thread can be resurrected around this time next year.
dougdagrump wrote:Have we beaten this dead horse enuff that it can left to be buried in peace.
Well, someone needs to mark their calendar so that this thread can be resurrected around this time next year.
Spanky, If it follows the previous schedule someone needs to mark their dayplanner for Sept 2015.
Remember the Veterans. Past, present and future.
www.sd3r.org
Proud New Member Of The NRA
marxalot wrote: dougdagrump wrote:Have we beaten this dead horse enuff that it can left to be buried in peace. Amen brother, Amen..................
Amen brother, Amen..................
Patience, DougDG,Marx and Spanky. It takes time to transport the dead horse to the "back 40" burial site, dig the hole, and wait until Chief leaves to dispose of the body. BTW, Deputy and I have a couple of coupons for the Evelyn Woods Speed Reading Dynamics course if you guys need them.
johnandjulie13 wrote:Deputy:My comments were not directed at you. I have not seen you complain about foreign production. I was just echoing Jack's sentiments about the myopia that plagues many of those in this hobby.Regards,John
Deputy:
My comments were not directed at you. I have not seen you complain about foreign production. I was just echoing Jack's sentiments about the myopia that plagues many of those in this hobby.
Regards,
John
Sorry John. The more we discuss the more confused I am getting
Deputy wrote: John: I was speaking about automobiles...not toy trains. An automobile is a huge investment and warranties for an item like that are a necessary thing. I value the service of a dealership that sells the same brand as mine, not a "general mechanic" that works on all brands. A Chevy dealer does not equate with a hobby shop by any stretch. Unless the hobby shop or repair facility specialized in a specific brand of train or train operations. If the factory insisted that I use the local repair shop, then I would have no choice but to do so.What you are missing is the fact that you can't send a car back to GM or Ford or Chrysler for warranty repairs. You can and do do that with toy trains. Even then, I'd prefer to send it to the factory. I have no problem with toy trains being manufactured overseas. Do you know how much that Big Boy Lionel loco would cost if it were made in the good ol' US of A today? When you factor in the exorbitant hourly wages that unions are gonna demand, plus health care and benefits for the US employees, plus the profit margins required to keep Lionel in business, it would cost so much that nobody but the ridiculously rich would be able to afford them. So Lionel and MTH and others have their trains built by sweatshops overseas that work 24 hours a day and pay peanuts to the employees. Anyone want to throw away their new Big Boy or top-of-the-line MTH loco? I didn't think so
John: I was speaking about automobiles...not toy trains. An automobile is a huge investment and warranties for an item like that are a necessary thing. I value the service of a dealership that sells the same brand as mine, not a "general mechanic" that works on all brands. A Chevy dealer does not equate with a hobby shop by any stretch. Unless the hobby shop or repair facility specialized in a specific brand of train or train operations. If the factory insisted that I use the local repair shop, then I would have no choice but to do so.What you are missing is the fact that you can't send a car back to GM or Ford or Chrysler for warranty repairs. You can and do do that with toy trains. Even then, I'd prefer to send it to the factory. I have no problem with toy trains being manufactured overseas. Do you know how much that Big Boy Lionel loco would cost if it were made in the good ol' US of A today? When you factor in the exorbitant hourly wages that unions are gonna demand, plus health care and benefits for the US employees, plus the profit margins required to keep Lionel in business, it would cost so much that nobody but the ridiculously rich would be able to afford them. So Lionel and MTH and others have their trains built by sweatshops overseas that work 24 hours a day and pay peanuts to the employees. Anyone want to throw away their new Big Boy or top-of-the-line MTH loco? I didn't think so
More beating and clarification is required. Clarification....Albuquerque does have train and hobby shops. More than one actually. I live in Silver City, which is in the far southwest part of the state. It simply doesn't make any sense for me to drive 6 hours at gas prices of $4.00 a gallon to get there to pay more money for the same item I can get online.
Jack: Perhaps you misunderstand. I am not complaining about lack of train or hobby shops in my area. That situation is offset by lack of crime that is rampant in Albuquerque and other large cities. I am perfectly fine with sending my stuff in to the factory if a problem arises. I doubt very much I would use a local hobby shop if one existed.Wallyworld: (I love that nickname )I agree with everything you said. John: I was speaking about automobiles...not toy trains. An automobile is a huge investment and warranties for an item like that are a necessary thing. I value the service of a dealership that sells the same brand as mine, not a "general mechanic" that works on all brands. A Chevy dealer does not equate with a hobby shop by any stretch. Unless the hobby shop or repair facility specialized in a specific brand of train or train operations. If the factory insisted that I use the local repair shop, then I would have no choice but to do so.What you are missing is the fact that you can't send a car back to GM or Ford or Chrysler for warranty repairs. You can and do do that with toy trains. Even then, I'd prefer to send it to the factory. I have no problem with toy trains being manufactured overseas. Do you know how much that Big Boy Lionel loco would cost if it were made in the good ol' US of A today? When you factor in the exorbitant hourly wages that unions are gonna demand, plus health care and benefits for the US employees, plus the profit margins required to keep Lionel in business, it would cost so much that nobody but the ridiculously rich would be able to afford them. So Lionel and MTH and others have their trains built by sweatshops overseas that work 24 hours a day and pay peanuts to the employees. Anyone want to throw away their new Big Boy or top-of-the-line MTH loco? I didn't think so
You just proved Jack's points. You do value the warranty and you do value the "brand" behind the dealer's service center. That "value" steers your decision making. It also steers Jack's decision making. At the end of the day, too many people complain about the good ol' days when they could buy American made trains at the local hobby store.
Unfortunately, these same individuals are not willing to look in the mirror when they bemoan the fact that the trains, which are only available at a reasonable price online, are now made overseas. The hypocrisy/irony is actually quite amusing.
RockIsland52 wrote:Deputy...... I give up, almost. (Hang in there, Bob).JohnJ&J.......the recent spate of posts from me were in rational support of paying higher purchase prices at a Ma and Pa train store. My point was: while still in existence, the local shop's higher sell/purchase price is mitigated if not offset by other cost saving considerations and other value-added considerations to which a financial impact can be assigned. This was in response to a poster who blamed the train manufacturers on the demise of the smaller retail outlets, partially valid and partially true. Deputy added big box stores and the internet, also partially valid and partially true.On a larger scale, we consumers only have to look in the mirror at the foundation of the demise because we write the checks and decide from whom to buy. Then we whine that there are no local train shops and all they offer, albeit at a higher initial purchase price.Another poster went so far as to note other local train store benefits which are free (no price of admission ), one of which he deemed "priceless." Many of us like me have the luxury of going to a local train shop and spending time shopping, running, touching, discussing, trading, buying used, picking up supplies/parts/track, utilizing the repair facility, and "socializing." Deputy doesn't assign any financial benefit or financial cost savings to any of that.We are losing all of the local Ma and Pa shops because of the notion: "Only the purchase price counts." If he wonders why there are no local train shops in Albuquerque, it's partially because of his unwavering opinion on this. He and everyone in Albuquerque are reaping what they have sown. No train shops. So Deputy.....if you are convinced there is no financial benefit to you of supporting a local train store by paying a higher purchase price there in order to take advantage of the other factors , so be it. If you are convinced there is nothing more in the true ownership cost equation than a purchase price, so be it.If you feel that a local model/toy train repair guy with decades of hands on experience can't hold a candle to the next available Lionel factory repair person, so be it. If you feel there is no financial benefit to you of a face-to-face discussion of repair options and the related costs with the repair guy, so be it.If you choose to buy cars sight unseen and undriven, even when you could see and drive them, and are willing to live with things about the car you later discover you don't care for, or outright dislike, just to get the lowest purchase price, and are then willing to live with those shortcomings, so be it.If you believe that outside the car dealership there exists no qualified and relatively trustworthy certified mechanics, found through valid recommendation and personal experience of self and others, so be it. And if you believe that dealerships on out-of-warranty repairs are not inclined to be replacement parts specialists until the problem is "fixed," so be it. If you believe that extended warranties are a financial waste or an unnecessary risk, not worth the peace of mind, your choice, so be it.BTW, I drove a half dozen Corvettes before I bought my small block 350ci-350hp 1969. Glad I did. The large blocks were just marginally quicker in a straight line (poor tires back then the equalizer) and handled worse when the corners appeared. The savings in insurance premiums alone over the years paid for the car. Add in the fuel savings and the lower annual excise tax and..... OOOPs. I forgot, these cost and practical considerations don't count financially, just the purchase price.And John, while other factors in the cost of ownership may seem intangible or more difficult to accurately quantify, they can't be discounted out of hand. They exist. They still add to the costs of ownership, we still write checks for them, so the purchase price is just one piece. Deputy believes they shouldn't count, so be it.Deputy.....you've got me by just 2 years, but we see things quite differently. I get paid to be an anal-retentive financial professional whose job it is to find cost savings and value-added benefits. You are just as concerned with spending money unnecessarily as the rest of us.I give up. So be it.Jack
Deputy...... I give up, almost. (Hang in there, Bob).
JohnJ&J.......the recent spate of posts from me were in rational support of paying higher purchase prices at a Ma and Pa train store. My point was: while still in existence, the local shop's higher sell/purchase price is mitigated if not offset by other cost saving considerations and other value-added considerations to which a financial impact can be assigned. This was in response to a poster who blamed the train manufacturers on the demise of the smaller retail outlets, partially valid and partially true. Deputy added big box stores and the internet, also partially valid and partially true.
On a larger scale, we consumers only have to look in the mirror at the foundation of the demise because we write the checks and decide from whom to buy. Then we whine that there are no local train shops and all they offer, albeit at a higher initial purchase price.
Another poster went so far as to note other local train store benefits which are free (no price of admission ), one of which he deemed "priceless." Many of us like me have the luxury of going to a local train shop and spending time shopping, running, touching, discussing, trading, buying used, picking up supplies/parts/track, utilizing the repair facility, and "socializing." Deputy doesn't assign any financial benefit or financial cost savings to any of that.
We are losing all of the local Ma and Pa shops because of the notion: "Only the purchase price counts." If he wonders why there are no local train shops in Albuquerque, it's partially because of his unwavering opinion on this. He and everyone in Albuquerque are reaping what they have sown. No train shops.
So Deputy.....if you are convinced there is no financial benefit to you of supporting a local train store by paying a higher purchase price there in order to take advantage of the other factors , so be it.
If you are convinced there is nothing more in the true ownership cost equation than a purchase price, so be it.
If you feel that a local model/toy train repair guy with decades of hands on experience can't hold a candle to the next available Lionel factory repair person, so be it. If you feel there is no financial benefit to you of a face-to-face discussion of repair options and the related costs with the repair guy, so be it.
If you choose to buy cars sight unseen and undriven, even when you could see and drive them, and are willing to live with things about the car you later discover you don't care for, or outright dislike, just to get the lowest purchase price, and are then willing to live with those shortcomings, so be it.
If you believe that outside the car dealership there exists no qualified and relatively trustworthy certified mechanics, found through valid recommendation and personal experience of self and others, so be it. And if you believe that dealerships on out-of-warranty repairs are not inclined to be replacement parts specialists until the problem is "fixed," so be it.
If you believe that extended warranties are a financial waste or an unnecessary risk, not worth the peace of mind, your choice, so be it.
BTW, I drove a half dozen Corvettes before I bought my small block 350ci-350hp 1969. Glad I did. The large blocks were just marginally quicker in a straight line (poor tires back then the equalizer) and handled worse when the corners appeared. The savings in insurance premiums alone over the years paid for the car. Add in the fuel savings and the lower annual excise tax and..... OOOPs. I forgot, these cost and practical considerations don't count financially, just the purchase price.
And John, while other factors in the cost of ownership may seem intangible or more difficult to accurately quantify, they can't be discounted out of hand. They exist. They still add to the costs of ownership, we still write checks for them, so the purchase price is just one piece. Deputy believes they shouldn't count, so be it.
Deputy.....you've got me by just 2 years, but we see things quite differently. I get paid to be an anal-retentive financial professional whose job it is to find cost savings and value-added benefits. You are just as concerned with spending money unnecessarily as the rest of us.
I give up. So be it.
The only point that is a bridge too far is the assertion that Deputy personally or the folks in the area are soley the controlling frame or causation of whether a hobby shop exists, whether someone decides to open a business Once a shop is open, then I would say, yes as they are the market. However, I notice other factors...a proximity of these markets in relation to railroad hubs aka interest east or west of the continent. It seems that exposure is related to relevance. Another is disposable income, the financial profile of income of households as related to a potential location. I personally would piggy back on Thomas..which has given the interest in railroads a boost. perhaps an "American" Thomas show with product placement would be a good tact among many. I think this is related to the failure to creatively market the hobby, which has been given over largely to the consumer or hobbyist as a default. This equates to word of mouth as a way to grow a business...the only reason the market exists is the momentum created decades ago...by savy marketing using all forms of media.We were sold and grew up to have our own income which reinvigorated the market.Efficency of scale as related to volume. If you market a product correctly, the volume increases, and hence the potential to make products more afforabable occurs. Look at microwaves or cell phones...they were quite expensive at their onset. Has anyone else noticed a creeping trend of limited runs? Look at the Soprano episodes, the "Blue Comet" episode or others..it took place in a hobby shop. If this concept was redirected at a younger market..even effective print or television ads...you have to spend money to make money. Grow the business. Otherwise, its a shrinking specialised niche dependant on a narrow band of demographic age. To coin a pun, don't discount marketing.
johnandjulie13 wrote: Gentlemen:I am really enjoying this discussion! While it appears that Jack and Deputy are on two sides of the discussion, they are actually saying the same thing. The difference is that Jack assigns a value to some intangibles where Deputy does not. It does not make either one of them right, it is just a difference in philosophy.However, I am curious to hear from Deputy regarding the car analogy. I am wondering if he had the option to purchase the car/truck at a greater discount but without a warranty (or a warranty that was scaled back), would he do it?Also, once the car/truck is out of warranty, would you still bring it to the dealership for repairs? Even if the dealership price was 20% greater than an independent shop?Regards,John
Gentlemen:
I am really enjoying this discussion! While it appears that Jack and Deputy are on two sides of the discussion, they are actually saying the same thing. The difference is that Jack assigns a value to some intangibles where Deputy does not. It does not make either one of them right, it is just a difference in philosophy.
However, I am curious to hear from Deputy regarding the car analogy. I am wondering if he had the option to purchase the car/truck at a greater discount but without a warranty (or a warranty that was scaled back), would he do it?
Also, once the car/truck is out of warranty, would you still bring it to the dealership for repairs? Even if the dealership price was 20% greater than an independent shop?
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