You heard the expression "on a slow boat from China?" Well now it applies to Lionel as well!!
What can you say except that most companies are selling out to China or Korea as labor cost are less than half of what they are in the U.S.
Lee F.
RT & Dep - here's the problem... where are you going to go to get your engines repaired? The modern ones you could probably send back to Lionel, but what about the Pre and Postwar stuff? What about the MPC era stuff? I guess they don't want you getting the old stuff repaired so you have to buy new stuff?But then you have the instances where Lionel has bought out K-Line and they don't provide support/repair services for the older K-Line stuff, and they can't seem to keep track of RMAs... I was at the LTS on Friday and he was telling horror stories where Lionel has RMAd stuff, people call to check on the status and one person says one thing and another tells you something different.I have a K-Line Allegheny that needs some parts and no one can provide them or fix the *** engine. Really pissing me off. I paid good money for this engine and now I can't get it fixed. Also have heard that Lionel is refusing to service a lot of the older TMCC engines claiming they can't get the boards... well if you can't get the boards and its your damned product, then put new boards in it! I would rather pay an extra $100 or so to get my stuff fixed than to be told 'we can't fix our own product - and we may never release another item like this, so you're out your money and have a nice 5lb shelf sitter'... or you could rip all the TMCC boards out that you paid extra money for and convert it to conventional...And no one can tell me MTH is better because I've had PS2 locos arrive D.O.A., sent them back to MTH, and been told 'nothing we can do for it'... WTF?!?! a PS2 loco and you can't fix it?
lionroar88 wrote: RT & Dep - here's the problem... where are you going to go to get your engines repaired? The modern ones you could probably send back to Lionel, but what about the Pre and Postwar stuff? What about the MPC era stuff? I guess they don't want you getting the old stuff repaired so you have to buy new stuff?But then you have the instances where Lionel has bought out K-Line and they don't provide support/repair services for the older K-Line stuff, and they can't seem to keep track of RMAs... I was at the LTS on Friday and he was telling horror stories where Lionel has RMAd stuff, people call to check on the status and one person says one thing and another tells you something different.I have a K-Line Allegheny that needs some parts and no one can provide them or fix the *** engine. Really pissing me off. I paid good money for this engine and now I can't get it fixed. Also have heard that Lionel is refusing to service a lot of the older TMCC engines claiming they can't get the boards... well if you can't get the boards and its your damned product, then put new boards in it! I would rather pay an extra $100 or so to get my stuff fixed than to be told 'we can't fix our own product - and we may never release another item like this, so you're out your money and have a nice 5lb shelf sitter'... or you could rip all the TMCC boards out that you paid extra money for and convert it to conventional...And no one can tell me MTH is better because I've had PS2 locos arrive D.O.A., sent them back to MTH, and been told 'nothing we can do for it'... WTF?!?! a PS2 loco and you can't fix it?
Virginian Railroad
I am not sure there is an solution to this dilemma. The train manufacturers are not driving the smaller guys out of business. We ourselves are driving the Mom and Pops out of business because we don't place any financial value on convenience, turnaround time, personalized service, and a sales transaction that allows us to hold, watch, or operate the piece we are about to buy. We vote with where we use our charge card. And that is where we find the cheapest price.
To me, show me/then sell me at a local train shop is my personal preference because I like to see the item in person before I buy. I am not totally bent on saving the 10-15% on a purchase. I figure the extra money I spend at my local Ma and Pa train shop mitigates some of the unknowns. At my Mom and Pop, I might be able to see the item in action on their layout and hold it, have them explain features. How many of us have gotten a great deal pricewise but were disappointed when we opened the box and saw or used the item up close and personal? There's aways a bunch of active threads about this throughout the CTT Forums.
How much money do we save over the long haul when the Mom and Pop sales and service facility goes under and.....all repairs, no matter how minor, require ultra-safe packaging, a trip to the parcel shipment store, an out-and-back shipping fee, plus perhaps insurance. Contrary to what some may think, many of us can't/don't/won't do some/all of our own repairs. And we wouldn't have the parts or tools even if we wanted to do them ourselves (more shipping costs and waiting).
Or when the Mom and Pops go out of business and I want to casually pick up some train-related supplies and have to buy them over the net......lost time and shipping costs for each transaction.
Or when the Mom and Pops go out of business, I suffer some sort of set-back, and my layout or favorite engine goes down (happened right before last Christmas to me). Expect a longer wait and down time and shipping charges again.
For some of us, shipping that treasured piece is an unsettling concept. Even if insurance does cover damage or loss. How do you replace an heirloom or your first train? You can't. At least mine is sitting in a shop 6 miles from my front door and "Ralph" has it, he's holding it, and I can talk to HIM.
Earlier in this thread I wrote that moving manufacturing abroad can have significant labor and benefits cost savings. What management usually underestimates when moving the processes abroad is the initial foreseen costs of such a move. What management fails to estimate are the "alleged" unforeseen, often unfixable costs of the move. Sample foreseen costs: level of initial and ongoing but required employee training and development; number of employees required to seemlesslessly continue to meet demand; backorder-driven lost sales and market share. Sample unforeseen costs: inadequate skill and education level of the "local" labor force; language and culture barriers; communication breakdowns between engineering and manufacturing, particularly if these functions reside on different continents; reaction time during quality crises. The list goes on. But the model/toy train companies have made the plunge and are unlikely to pull the plug and move back for reasons stated in my other post.
I'm peeing up a rope here because the lowest purchase price seems to be the only thing too many people consider, ignoring the unforeseen costs of the Ma and Pops going South. I'll keep spending more 6 miles away at Northeast Trains in Peabody MASS unless/until the internet retailers and Charles Ro's shop 15 miles away in Maden MASS drives them out of business. And when Charles Ro is gone......
The cheapest purchase price is not the cheapest price. The manufacturers are not driving the Ma and Pa shops out of busines. We the customers are, by choosing the venue that offers the cheapest purchase price.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
Jack: I think what you are using is the "Walmart theory" for retaining Mom and Pop stores. Unfortunately, it has many flaws. For instance...a Mom and Pop store has how many employees (besides Mom and Pop)? Maybe one or two other guys? Charles Ro most likely has a LOT of employees working for them. So jobs becomes an issue. US citizens are always told and often educated to make a wise purchase. In this day and age people just can't afford to pay more to keep a local store of any kind in business. Mom and Pop stores that were successful back in the 50s will either have to modernize or go under. That's just the way free enterprise works. Maybe the Mom and Pop places can also go online and sell their stuff on the internet? Competition is what makes this country what it is. You have to be able to change and adapt with the times. The "hold the item in your hands" sounds good, but I prefer to do intensive research into what features are on a loco, rather than be swayed by holding it in my hands. And the train magazines like CTT and OGR are invaluable in doing the legwork for us as far as evaluating the good and bad of trains. The "time factor" doesn't come into play for me at all. I would rather a repair facility take their time and do the job right. How can you replace a treasured heirloom or first train? What if good ol' Ralph is working a 10 hour day and falls asleep while smoking a cigarette in that train store? Your treasured heirloom goes up in smoke and nothing you can do about it. Poop happens and there isn't much you can do about it. If you are worried about treasured heirlooms not working or breaking, then the simple solution is don't run them. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I have 3 postwar S2 turbines and they will see very little track time compared to the two MTH S2s or the 3 Lionel S2s I own. Hey....you make your choice and you live with it.
The cheapest price is the cheapest price. It just means that you have to take the consequences of fixing things yourself or sending them out to be fixed. Like I said...I have no Mom and Pop train or hobby stores in my town, and the closest one is 1/2 a day's ride to Albuquerque. So I either have to ship it or fix it myself. I live with that situation and deal with it.
Deputy
Whether it is customer service, the transfer of production overseas, or quality..this is a world of diminished expectation no matter where the finger is pointed. On the other hand, I have had engines repaired promptly and at a reasonable cost, had my questions answered, had odd repair parts ordered and tracked..have had sets custom arranged..actually had real time in person discussions on hobby issues, one stop shopping for magazines\track\buldings\transformers etc etc...all in the local hobby shop. You are greeted by name...see new products actually run before I buy them..sound systems as well. The internet?...Give me a break...Cheap is cheap. You get what you pay for. Further..I often drive an hour to get to Sommerfelds in Milwaukee in addition to my regular shop..I have swapped trains...got to see used equipment doing an end run around the common misrepresentations on Ebay..where I can actually examine a purchase..imagine that. Priceless. On many a visit i see parents bring their kids to see the trains run..at times run them...can you grow the hobby on the internet? Not. The "old Ralph" characterisation is frankly, an unfounded slander to the many shop owners and shops I still frequent.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Yes...and it was nice to pet the horse as you hitched him up to the buggy for a Sunday ride. But those days are gone! You either live in the 21st century and accept that history is history and you can't bring back the "goold ol' days", or start working on a time machine and join HG Wells in the past. That might sound harsh, but it's reality. Buying online I have had salesman at online stores search out and find items that were all but impossible to find, even if I had gassed up my truck and driven cross country. I don't spend one penny on $4.00 a gallon gas driving hours and hours to a hobby shop (add that into the cost of hobby shop trains!). I point and click and in a week or less the item is delivered to my doorstep. It comes with a factory warranty as well as return/exchange privledges wherever I buy from. By patronizing specific online sellers, I have built up a friendly relationship where they know me when I e-mail or call them, and they bend over backwards to satisfy me. I get discounts for buying in quantity and get special prices or offers because I am a valued customer. I get e-mail notices of special sales and salesman who know what I like to buy send me e-mails informing me when they get a particular road name that interests me. And best of all....and I know this will upset some...I don't have to see kids opening boxes and messing with items I am interested in buying. It never ceases to amaze and anger me to see parents "turn the kids loose" in a hobby shop, and then they proceed to destroy everything they can get their hands on. I have purchased a lot of my train stuff on Ebay and have never had to return or complain about anything I bought. Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I know how to shop on Ebay better than others. I dunno. Can you grow the hobby on the internet? That depends on how you use the internet. If you are riding around shopping in a horse and buggy, then no, you can't.
Not exactly what a less dispasionate observer would call a balanced view. This is your choice but I dont think it is necessary to express it by painting an obviously lopsided view in order to justify your own views at the unjustified expense of store owners. I think that is exagerated, mean spirited and uncalled for, especially inferring I am a Luddite. If you and I were face to face, rather than on the internet, I think it would facilitate a conversation versus using the internet to do so. Stereotyping never served anyone well.I have to hitch the horse now...I refuse to trade barbs...call it old fashioned.
wallyworld wrote: Not exactly what a less dispasionate observer would call a balanced view. This is your choice but I dont think it is necessary to express it by painting an obviously lopsided view in order to justify your views at the unjustified expense of store owners. I think that is exagerated, mean spirited and uncalled for, especially inferring I am a Luddite. If you and I were face to face, rather than on the internet, I think it would facilitate a conversation versus using the internet to do so. Stereotyping never served anyone well.I have to hitch the horse now...
Not exactly what a less dispasionate observer would call a balanced view. This is your choice but I dont think it is necessary to express it by painting an obviously lopsided view in order to justify your views at the unjustified expense of store owners. I think that is exagerated, mean spirited and uncalled for, especially inferring I am a Luddite. If you and I were face to face, rather than on the internet, I think it would facilitate a conversation versus using the internet to do so. Stereotyping never served anyone well.I have to hitch the horse now...
Sorry if I was passionate with my reply. I was just relating my personal experiences. For some reason this forum has a lot of advocates of the Luddite philophosy. BTW...you got me on that one. Had to use Wikipedia to find the meaning In my rather small town (population under 10,000) there is a group of elitists who love to bash Walmart and other large stores, and their main reason is the destruction of the Mom and Pop busineses. I love catching these exact same people shopping in Walmart late at night I also wonder how many people who bash large toy train superstores on this forum actually sneak over to the websites and order from them. Anyway, I apologize if my reply was curt-sounding. No offense intended. Just giving my point of view. I suspect everyone has different situations and experiences and everyone feels just as strongly about all of them. Dep
Deputy wrote: wallyworld wrote: Not exactly what a less dispasionate observer would call a balanced view. This is your choice but I dont think it is necessary to express it by painting an obviously lopsided view in order to justify your views at the unjustified expense of store owners. I think that is exagerated, mean spirited and uncalled for, especially inferring I am a Luddite. If you and I were face to face, rather than on the internet, I think it would facilitate a conversation versus using the internet to do so. Stereotyping never served anyone well.I have to hitch the horse now... Sorry if I was passionate with my reply. I was just relating my personal experiences. For some reason this forum has a lot of advocates of the Luddite philophosy. BTW...you got me on that one. Had to use Wikipedia to find the meaning In my rather small town (population under 10,000) there is a group of elitists who love to bash Walmart and other large stores, and their main reason is the destruction of the Mom and Pop busineses. I love catching these exact same people shopping in Walmart late at night I also wonder how many people who bash large toy train superstores on this forum actually sneak over to the websites and order from them. Anyway, I apologize if my reply was curt-sounding. No offense intended. Just giving my point of view. I suspect everyone has different situations and experiences and everyone feels just as strongly about all of them. Dep
No apology required. I think its reasonable that both of our points of view have validity in that this situation like most is in the eye of the beholder. You are in a rural area and I am in a urban area. The internet for you and the hobby shop for me simply shows its not an either \ or situation. Each has their advantages and disadvantages all of which depend on personal circumstances.Its sort of like Lionel versus MTH..or one control system versus another...it isnt like well...that one is awful and the other is "perfect" I suppose these days the world is often viewed in counter opposed frames where perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle, eh?
wallyworld wrote: No apology required. I think its reasonable that both of our points of view have validity in that this situation like most is in the eye of the beholder. You are in a rural area and I am in a urban area. The internet for you and the hobby shop for me simply shows its not an either \ or situation. Each has their advantages and disadvantages all of which depend on personal circumstances.Its sort of like Lionel versus MTH..or one control system versus another...it isnt like well...that one is awful and the other is "perfect" I suppose these days the world is often viewed in counter opposed frames where perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle, eh?
Agree 100% and well said!!
Nope, no Walmart theory here. More of a price/performance comparison.
I may not have made my post clear, but I don't know how else to say it. My profession requires me to dig deeper and help clients identify all the costs and value-added items, not just the obvious ones like a purchase price.
The cheapest price is NOT the cheapest price as you say because the purchase price of an item is not the total price. You have placed no price tag on the other things I mentioned. But there is value to all of the things I mentioned and a true financial cost associated to nearly every one of them. Put a price tag on value and the other financial costs beyond purchase price, and I think we have agreement. You cannot separate and ignore them. They are part and parcel of the ownership experience, and they come with a price.
Just like a toy/model train manufacturer (any manufacturer) has to consider more than just material, labor, overhead, facility relocation expenses, and incremental distribution costs as part of its total costs when electing to manufacture abroad versus domestically.
This is not a matter of wanting to have our cake and eat it too. I am willing to pay more at my local Ma and Pa outfit on the purchase end because I place a financial value on more than just the item purchased and the purchase price. You don't.
Of course I trust my local repair guy more than the faceless "next available repair person" at Lionel. Wouldn't you? I (now) know him personally, I know his experience, I know his credentials, I know his judgement, and I know his results. What more can I ask for? I maintain there is a financial value in having the repair service right down the road, at my fingertips.
But with convenience comes a price tag added into the purchase price. Unlike you, I have the luxury of choice because of the close proximity of both Northeast Trains and Charles Ro, and of Walmart. Don't tell me you never go into a convenience store when the prices are so much lower at the grocery store. Why? Because you place a financial value on your time and/or the proximate convenience of the convenience store.
Re the "research" and "hold the item in your hands" points. Research from afar doesn't quite get it done.
Take an automobile purchase as an extreme example. Sure, you'd research it first. But if you didn't have to, you wouldn't buy it without sitting in it, playing with the gadgets, examining how it meets your ergonomic expectations, and driving one yourself in your real world environment. If you didn't have to, you wouldn't buy a car sight unseen and have it delivered by trailer to your door (fingers crossed). And I doubt you buy it from a dealer in Anchorage just because they have the best purchase price.
Why? Because the purchase price was just a starting point. Additional shipping charges negated some of that purchase price advantage. The risk of the sight unseen car arriving damaged (now what?) negated some more of the price advantage. Doesn't seeing the car in person have a value over a picture? And doesn't actually driving the car in Deputy's world have a value to you? In short, beyond purchase price, and having the choice, the rest has a value to you along with a financial price you would be willing to pay above the cheapest Anchorage purchase price.
So the cheapest price is not the cheapest price.
As I said in my last post, doing business with my local train store may cost more on the front end, but I get the differential back.
I think why we Americans are offended at some basic level when a company moves it's manufacturing overseas is that we mistakenly view companies in a nationalistic sense. Corporations have no loyalty to anything except the almighty dollar. They are not in the business of making trains, they are in the business of making money. Hence, when a company in a subtle, or not so subtle way, waves the flag behind them in order to appeal to our natural nationalistic impulses (in order to sell product), we are rightly upset when they close their American factories.
I personally do not have loyalty to any corporation. I buy strictly on quality, features and value for the dollar. That is not to say I do not have my preferences. I do prefer many of the great American brands and companies. But that is more of a aesthetic choice and appreciation of heritage than anything else.
All things being equal, I will always choose to buy products made by Americans, if possible. The key phrase is "made by". If those people happen to work for Honda in Ohio, rather than people who work for Chevy in Korea, I will choose, again based on quality, features, and value, the Honda made by Americans. In this "global" economy, who actually owns the factory doesn't matter much anymore.
Jack: Wow! I guess you are very differnet than me. Let me explain..."I am willing to pay more at my local Ma and Pa outfit on the purchase end because I place a financial value on more than just the item purchased and the purchase price. You don't."That's true. I'm on a fixed income/pension. Not getting Social Security yet (I'm 59). I don't have the luxury of putting the food on my table and the table of Ma and Pa outfits. Note that I also buy mainly high end train stuff. So the price difference is more than just a couple of bucks when I find a less expensive price for the same item. I'm not flashing my cash around to impress anyone or bragging. I have to save up my pennies to buy what I want just like everyone else. So I have to also pinch them and get the best price.
"Of course I trust my local repair guy more than the faceless "next available repair person" at Lionel. Wouldn't you?"In a word...no!!! I trust the people who initially put the product together over someone who needs to consult a repair manual or took a training session from someone who put the product together. The same holds true if my truck had a problem. I trust the Chevy dealer to fix it with the correct parts and procedures over taking it to some shadetree mechanic to work on what amounts to a very complexd (15 different computers in my truck) vehicle. In new cars as in new toy trains, they are no longer items built on the KISS principle any more. They are complex items that require someone with specialized training to repair. And I would trust the person who does repairs over and over on a daily basis over one that does them "as they come in the door"."Don't tell me you never go into a convenience store when the prices are so much lower at the grocery store."Only time I go into a convenience store is when they beat the prices at the grocery store. As a matter of fact, our Dollar General store has dish washing detergent that works better and cost less than what is available at the grocery store. Again...I watch my money very carefully "But if you didn't have to, you wouldn't buy it without sitting in it, playing with the gadgets, examining how it meets your ergonomic expectations, and driving one yourself in your real world environment. "As a matter of fact, that is exactly how I bought both my 2004 Chevy Silverado and my 1969 Mustang. I went in to the dealership after listing the features I wanted and told him "I want one of these in silver". Didn't need to sit in it, play with the gadgets, or take it out for a test drive. Heck, back in 1969 I ordered my Mustang brand new when I was still stationed on Okinawa!!! If you know what you want to buy after careful research, then all that other stuff is just goofing around with the salesman. Nowadays I don't even talk to a salesman. I put the car together online and get the car at $50 over dealer cost. I walk in with a printout and ask to talk to the "internet rep". He already has a copy of my printout and locates the car I want or orders one for production. Welcome to the 21st century
If you didn't have to, you wouldn't buy a car sight unseen and have it delivered by trailer to your door (fingers crossed). LOL...my 1972 Corvette was purchased from ProTeam Corvette in Ohio. I was living in Illinois when I bought it. It was trailered to my door and dropped off. I saved a bundle that way!!! Never would have been able to afford it otherwise.
"And I doubt you buy it from a dealer in Anchorage just because they have the best purchase price."Why would you doubt that????? If they would ship it here to my location and the shipping didn't kill the discount, I would do it in a heartbeat. Warranty work is the same no matter where you live. I bought my 2004 truck in Glenview, IL and moved here to NM in 2006. I had warranty work done on an emmission gizmo and they did a perfect job for no charge.
"Doesn't seeing the car in person have a value over a picture?"Nope. As long as I know what color it is and what it will look like, I don't need to touch it."And doesn't actually driving the car in Deputy's world have a value to you?"Nope....it's brand new. I know what trucks are like because I've ridden in them."In short, beyond purchase price, and having the choice, the rest has a value to you along with a financial price you would be willing to pay above the cheapest Anchorage purchase price."Nope...the bottom line for me is the botttom line. You could still buy from a local dealer and get taken or he may have crummy service. You just go somewhere else for service. So the cheapest price for me is the cheapest price.
Gentlemen:
I am really enjoying this discussion! While it appears that Jack and Deputy are on two sides of the discussion, they are actually saying the same thing. The difference is that Jack assigns a value to some intangibles where Deputy does not. It does not make either one of them right, it is just a difference in philosophy.
However, I am curious to hear from Deputy regarding the car analogy. I am wondering if he had the option to purchase the car/truck at a greater discount but without a warranty (or a warranty that was scaled back), would he do it?
Also, once the car/truck is out of warranty, would you still bring it to the dealership for repairs? Even if the dealership price was 20% greater than an independent shop?
Regards,
John
johnandjulie13 wrote: Gentlemen:I am really enjoying this discussion! While it appears that Jack and Deputy are on two sides of the discussion, they are actually saying the same thing. The difference is that Jack assigns a value to some intangibles where Deputy does not. It does not make either one of them right, it is just a difference in philosophy.However, I am curious to hear from Deputy regarding the car analogy. I am wondering if he had the option to purchase the car/truck at a greater discount but without a warranty (or a warranty that was scaled back), would he do it?Also, once the car/truck is out of warranty, would you still bring it to the dealership for repairs? Even if the dealership price was 20% greater than an independent shop?Regards,John
Deputy...... I give up, almost. (Hang in there, Bob).
JohnJ&J.......the recent spate of posts from me were in rational support of paying higher purchase prices at a Ma and Pa train store. My point was: while still in existence, the local shop's higher sell/purchase price is mitigated if not offset by other cost saving considerations and other value-added considerations to which a financial impact can be assigned. This was in response to a poster who blamed the train manufacturers on the demise of the smaller retail outlets, partially valid and partially true. Deputy added big box stores and the internet, also partially valid and partially true.
On a larger scale, we consumers only have to look in the mirror at the foundation of the demise because we write the checks and decide from whom to buy. Then we whine that there are no local train shops and all they offer, albeit at a higher initial purchase price.
Another poster went so far as to note other local train store benefits which are free (no price of admission ), one of which he deemed "priceless." Many of us like me have the luxury of going to a local train shop and spending time shopping, running, touching, discussing, trading, buying used, picking up supplies/parts/track, utilizing the repair facility, and "socializing." Deputy doesn't assign any financial benefit or financial cost savings to any of that.
We are losing all of the local Ma and Pa shops because of the notion: "Only the purchase price counts." If he wonders why there are no local train shops in Albuquerque, it's partially because of his unwavering opinion on this. He and everyone in Albuquerque are reaping what they have sown. No train shops.
So Deputy.....if you are convinced there is no financial benefit to you of supporting a local train store by paying a higher purchase price there in order to take advantage of the other factors , so be it.
If you are convinced there is nothing more in the true ownership cost equation than a purchase price, so be it.
If you feel that a local model/toy train repair guy with decades of hands on experience can't hold a candle to the next available Lionel factory repair person, so be it. If you feel there is no financial benefit to you of a face-to-face discussion of repair options and the related costs with the repair guy, so be it.
If you choose to buy cars sight unseen and undriven, even when you could see and drive them, and are willing to live with things about the car you later discover you don't care for, or outright dislike, just to get the lowest purchase price, and are then willing to live with those shortcomings, so be it.
If you believe that outside the car dealership there exists no qualified and relatively trustworthy certified mechanics, found through valid recommendation and personal experience of self and others, so be it. And if you believe that dealerships on out-of-warranty repairs are not inclined to be replacement parts specialists until the problem is "fixed," so be it.
If you believe that extended warranties are a financial waste or an unnecessary risk, not worth the peace of mind, your choice, so be it.
BTW, I drove a half dozen Corvettes before I bought my small block 350ci-350hp 1969. Glad I did. The large blocks were just marginally quicker in a straight line (poor tires back then the equalizer) and handled worse when the corners appeared. The savings in insurance premiums alone over the years paid for the car. Add in the fuel savings and the lower annual excise tax and..... OOOPs. I forgot, these cost and practical considerations don't count financially, just the purchase price.
And John, while other factors in the cost of ownership may seem intangible or more difficult to accurately quantify, they can't be discounted out of hand. They exist. They still add to the costs of ownership, we still write checks for them, so the purchase price is just one piece. Deputy believes they shouldn't count, so be it.
Deputy.....you've got me by just 2 years, but we see things quite differently. I get paid to be an anal-retentive financial professional whose job it is to find cost savings and value-added benefits. You are just as concerned with spending money unnecessarily as the rest of us.
I give up. So be it.
RockIsland52 wrote:Deputy...... I give up, almost. (Hang in there, Bob).JohnJ&J.......the recent spate of posts from me were in rational support of paying higher purchase prices at a Ma and Pa train store. My point was: while still in existence, the local shop's higher sell/purchase price is mitigated if not offset by other cost saving considerations and other value-added considerations to which a financial impact can be assigned. This was in response to a poster who blamed the train manufacturers on the demise of the smaller retail outlets, partially valid and partially true. Deputy added big box stores and the internet, also partially valid and partially true.On a larger scale, we consumers only have to look in the mirror at the foundation of the demise because we write the checks and decide from whom to buy. Then we whine that there are no local train shops and all they offer, albeit at a higher initial purchase price.Another poster went so far as to note other local train store benefits which are free (no price of admission ), one of which he deemed "priceless." Many of us like me have the luxury of going to a local train shop and spending time shopping, running, touching, discussing, trading, buying used, picking up supplies/parts/track, utilizing the repair facility, and "socializing." Deputy doesn't assign any financial benefit or financial cost savings to any of that.We are losing all of the local Ma and Pa shops because of the notion: "Only the purchase price counts." If he wonders why there are no local train shops in Albuquerque, it's partially because of his unwavering opinion on this. He and everyone in Albuquerque are reaping what they have sown. No train shops. So Deputy.....if you are convinced there is no financial benefit to you of supporting a local train store by paying a higher purchase price there in order to take advantage of the other factors , so be it. If you are convinced there is nothing more in the true ownership cost equation than a purchase price, so be it.If you feel that a local model/toy train repair guy with decades of hands on experience can't hold a candle to the next available Lionel factory repair person, so be it. If you feel there is no financial benefit to you of a face-to-face discussion of repair options and the related costs with the repair guy, so be it.If you choose to buy cars sight unseen and undriven, even when you could see and drive them, and are willing to live with things about the car you later discover you don't care for, or outright dislike, just to get the lowest purchase price, and are then willing to live with those shortcomings, so be it.If you believe that outside the car dealership there exists no qualified and relatively trustworthy certified mechanics, found through valid recommendation and personal experience of self and others, so be it. And if you believe that dealerships on out-of-warranty repairs are not inclined to be replacement parts specialists until the problem is "fixed," so be it. If you believe that extended warranties are a financial waste or an unnecessary risk, not worth the peace of mind, your choice, so be it.BTW, I drove a half dozen Corvettes before I bought my small block 350ci-350hp 1969. Glad I did. The large blocks were just marginally quicker in a straight line (poor tires back then the equalizer) and handled worse when the corners appeared. The savings in insurance premiums alone over the years paid for the car. Add in the fuel savings and the lower annual excise tax and..... OOOPs. I forgot, these cost and practical considerations don't count financially, just the purchase price.And John, while other factors in the cost of ownership may seem intangible or more difficult to accurately quantify, they can't be discounted out of hand. They exist. They still add to the costs of ownership, we still write checks for them, so the purchase price is just one piece. Deputy believes they shouldn't count, so be it.Deputy.....you've got me by just 2 years, but we see things quite differently. I get paid to be an anal-retentive financial professional whose job it is to find cost savings and value-added benefits. You are just as concerned with spending money unnecessarily as the rest of us.I give up. So be it.Jack
The only point that is a bridge too far is the assertion that Deputy personally or the folks in the area are soley the controlling frame or causation of whether a hobby shop exists, whether someone decides to open a business Once a shop is open, then I would say, yes as they are the market. However, I notice other factors...a proximity of these markets in relation to railroad hubs aka interest east or west of the continent. It seems that exposure is related to relevance. Another is disposable income, the financial profile of income of households as related to a potential location. I personally would piggy back on Thomas..which has given the interest in railroads a boost. perhaps an "American" Thomas show with product placement would be a good tact among many. I think this is related to the failure to creatively market the hobby, which has been given over largely to the consumer or hobbyist as a default. This equates to word of mouth as a way to grow a business...the only reason the market exists is the momentum created decades ago...by savy marketing using all forms of media.We were sold and grew up to have our own income which reinvigorated the market.Efficency of scale as related to volume. If you market a product correctly, the volume increases, and hence the potential to make products more afforabable occurs. Look at microwaves or cell phones...they were quite expensive at their onset. Has anyone else noticed a creeping trend of limited runs? Look at the Soprano episodes, the "Blue Comet" episode or others..it took place in a hobby shop. If this concept was redirected at a younger market..even effective print or television ads...you have to spend money to make money. Grow the business. Otherwise, its a shrinking specialised niche dependant on a narrow band of demographic age. To coin a pun, don't discount marketing.
Deputy:
You just proved Jack's points. You do value the warranty and you do value the "brand" behind the dealer's service center. That "value" steers your decision making. It also steers Jack's decision making. At the end of the day, too many people complain about the good ol' days when they could buy American made trains at the local hobby store.
Unfortunately, these same individuals are not willing to look in the mirror when they bemoan the fact that the trains, which are only available at a reasonable price online, are now made overseas. The hypocrisy/irony is actually quite amusing.
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More beating and clarification is required. Clarification....Albuquerque does have train and hobby shops. More than one actually. I live in Silver City, which is in the far southwest part of the state. It simply doesn't make any sense for me to drive 6 hours at gas prices of $4.00 a gallon to get there to pay more money for the same item I can get online.
Jack: Perhaps you misunderstand. I am not complaining about lack of train or hobby shops in my area. That situation is offset by lack of crime that is rampant in Albuquerque and other large cities. I am perfectly fine with sending my stuff in to the factory if a problem arises. I doubt very much I would use a local hobby shop if one existed.Wallyworld: (I love that nickname )I agree with everything you said. John: I was speaking about automobiles...not toy trains. An automobile is a huge investment and warranties for an item like that are a necessary thing. I value the service of a dealership that sells the same brand as mine, not a "general mechanic" that works on all brands. A Chevy dealer does not equate with a hobby shop by any stretch. Unless the hobby shop or repair facility specialized in a specific brand of train or train operations. If the factory insisted that I use the local repair shop, then I would have no choice but to do so.What you are missing is the fact that you can't send a car back to GM or Ford or Chrysler for warranty repairs. You can and do do that with toy trains. Even then, I'd prefer to send it to the factory. I have no problem with toy trains being manufactured overseas. Do you know how much that Big Boy Lionel loco would cost if it were made in the good ol' US of A today? When you factor in the exorbitant hourly wages that unions are gonna demand, plus health care and benefits for the US employees, plus the profit margins required to keep Lionel in business, it would cost so much that nobody but the ridiculously rich would be able to afford them. So Lionel and MTH and others have their trains built by sweatshops overseas that work 24 hours a day and pay peanuts to the employees. Anyone want to throw away their new Big Boy or top-of-the-line MTH loco? I didn't think so
dougdagrump wrote:Have we beaten this dead horse enuff that it can left to be buried in peace.
Amen brother, Amen..................
Deputy wrote: John: I was speaking about automobiles...not toy trains. An automobile is a huge investment and warranties for an item like that are a necessary thing. I value the service of a dealership that sells the same brand as mine, not a "general mechanic" that works on all brands. A Chevy dealer does not equate with a hobby shop by any stretch. Unless the hobby shop or repair facility specialized in a specific brand of train or train operations. If the factory insisted that I use the local repair shop, then I would have no choice but to do so.What you are missing is the fact that you can't send a car back to GM or Ford or Chrysler for warranty repairs. You can and do do that with toy trains. Even then, I'd prefer to send it to the factory. I have no problem with toy trains being manufactured overseas. Do you know how much that Big Boy Lionel loco would cost if it were made in the good ol' US of A today? When you factor in the exorbitant hourly wages that unions are gonna demand, plus health care and benefits for the US employees, plus the profit margins required to keep Lionel in business, it would cost so much that nobody but the ridiculously rich would be able to afford them. So Lionel and MTH and others have their trains built by sweatshops overseas that work 24 hours a day and pay peanuts to the employees. Anyone want to throw away their new Big Boy or top-of-the-line MTH loco? I didn't think so
John: I was speaking about automobiles...not toy trains. An automobile is a huge investment and warranties for an item like that are a necessary thing. I value the service of a dealership that sells the same brand as mine, not a "general mechanic" that works on all brands. A Chevy dealer does not equate with a hobby shop by any stretch. Unless the hobby shop or repair facility specialized in a specific brand of train or train operations. If the factory insisted that I use the local repair shop, then I would have no choice but to do so.What you are missing is the fact that you can't send a car back to GM or Ford or Chrysler for warranty repairs. You can and do do that with toy trains. Even then, I'd prefer to send it to the factory. I have no problem with toy trains being manufactured overseas. Do you know how much that Big Boy Lionel loco would cost if it were made in the good ol' US of A today? When you factor in the exorbitant hourly wages that unions are gonna demand, plus health care and benefits for the US employees, plus the profit margins required to keep Lionel in business, it would cost so much that nobody but the ridiculously rich would be able to afford them. So Lionel and MTH and others have their trains built by sweatshops overseas that work 24 hours a day and pay peanuts to the employees. Anyone want to throw away their new Big Boy or top-of-the-line MTH loco? I didn't think so
My comments were not directed at you. I have not seen you complain about foreign production. I was just echoing Jack's sentiments about the myopia that plagues many of those in this hobby.
johnandjulie13 wrote:Deputy:My comments were not directed at you. I have not seen you complain about foreign production. I was just echoing Jack's sentiments about the myopia that plagues many of those in this hobby.Regards,John
Sorry John. The more we discuss the more confused I am getting
marxalot wrote: dougdagrump wrote:Have we beaten this dead horse enuff that it can left to be buried in peace. Amen brother, Amen..................
Patience, DougDG,Marx and Spanky. It takes time to transport the dead horse to the "back 40" burial site, dig the hole, and wait until Chief leaves to dispose of the body. BTW, Deputy and I have a couple of coupons for the Evelyn Woods Speed Reading Dynamics course if you guys need them.
DJSpanky wrote: dougdagrump wrote:Have we beaten this dead horse enuff that it can left to be buried in peace.Well, someone needs to mark their calendar so that this thread can be resurrected around this time next year.
Well, someone needs to mark their calendar so that this thread can be resurrected around this time next year.
Spanky, If it follows the previous schedule someone needs to mark their dayplanner for Sept 2015.
Bob Keller
Deputy wrote: So Lionel and MTH and others have their trains built by sweatshops overseas that work 24 hours a day and pay peanuts to the employees. Anyone want to throw away their new Big Boy or top-of-the-line MTH loco? I didn't think so
That statement makes me sad. Actually, I care that someone doesn't have adequate pay, benefits, safety or environmental protection. I care that my products may have been built under slave type conditions. And I think we should expect all of humanity to have the same work conditions we have. These companies we buy from should be made to respect all of their workers, not just their American ones. If this cannot be done, maybe we don't deserve to have "Big Boys", etc. They are just toy trains after all.
I buy from MTH, Lionel, etc. but certainly not if it was implicit that their products are made under the conditions you describe.
JimJimmyJames wrote: Deputy wrote: So Lionel and MTH and others have their trains built by sweatshops overseas that work 24 hours a day and pay peanuts to the employees. Anyone want to throw away their new Big Boy or top-of-the-line MTH loco? I didn't think so That statement makes me sad. Actually, I care that someone doesn't have adequate pay, benefits, safety or environmental protection. I care that my products may have been built under slave type conditions. And I think we should expect all of humanity to have the same work conditions we have. These companies we buy from should be made to respect all of their workers, not just their American ones. If this cannot be done, maybe we don't deserve to have "Big Boys", etc. They are just toy trains after all.I buy from MTH, Lionel, etc. but certainly not if it was implicit that their products are made under the conditions you describe.
Not to complicate the issue here but I think if you look at the history of the Industrial Revolution, and recognise China is a comparative youngster in an emerging economy in relation to our own early history of farm workers migrating to urban areas, poor working conditions and low pay in mills. mines etc, I think this situation of exporting manufacturing trains will run it's own due course in relation to their economys growth. In others words it will level off. In the interim if you asked a urban factory worker in China about conditions they would tell you it's preferable to conditions in the backwater. I had posted a question here about Realtrax geometry and also sent an e mail to MTH. Over a hundred folks viewed the question here. No answer. Yesterday I received an e mail from MTH which several included photgraphs of applications, parts lists and descriptions.I saved some gas. So, in fairness to the issues of customer service and the internet versus hobby shops, as I suspected the truth lies in the middle. Each has its advantages and disadvantages and is prone to being weighed in regard to what you are looking for. I, for one, would be interested to know if the makers of toy trains in Europe are following the same tact..of exporting production to China, etc. If so, the reason is obvious, if not, why not? There seems to be alot of consolidations, mergers going on over there. The irony in this is that our dollar is so weak, to buy offshore,( unless you have deep pockets) the cost has gone through the roof. Since we live in a global economy, I am hoping someone from the UK comments....on the market conditions there.
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