A penny saved is a penny earned. But every once in a while it is good to treat yourself to a gum ball.
James Sanchez
It was interesting to find and look at some of the old threads and what we were talking about back then. This had some of my views in it but back then my views were I would only buy trains made before the move from now on . Alas I'm now buying made in china trains as I'm using TMCC items on my new to be layout I still have some of my older trains and probally will sell some and keep the ones I really like.
This was a heart breaking news to a lot of us. Just as we all thought we were going to here some good news a couple of months ago when some one quoted Niel Young saying watch for happening in N.J. in the future.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
I guess it's okay with me. As long as the quality is still good and the prices stay as low as possible.
Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!
Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.
Berk765 wrote: I guess it's okay with me. As long as the quality is still good and the prices stay as low as possible.
On one hand, the quality and price are important factors.
On the other hand, these are really tough economic times and sometimes I wonder, if maybe, the corporate world should "bite-the-bullet" and in some way support the domestic work force.
BUT, that is an entirely different subject AND I certainly am no expert.
It seems more and more difficult to find reasonably priced 'non-China made' products in the retail market.
Personally, I would not leave Lionel. After all is said and done, we are talking about a "Hobby" where, for the most part, discretionary funds come into play.
Again, only an opinion. Thanks for reading.
traindaddy1 wrote: Berk765 wrote: I guess it's okay with me. As long as the quality is still good and the prices stay as low as possible. On one hand, the quality and price are important factors.On the other hand, these are really tough economic times and sometimes I wonder, if maybe, the corporate world should "bite-the-bullet" and in some way support the domestic work force.BUT, that is an entirely different subject AND I certainly am no expert.It seems more and more difficult to find reasonably priced 'non-China made' products in the retail market. Personally, I would not leave Lionel. After all is said and done, we are talking about a "Hobby" where, for the most part, discretionary funds come into play.Again, only an opinion. Thanks for reading.
Maybe if this trend continues we should all learn Chinese and move to China rather than remain in whats becoming a third world country.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Funny how these old threads pop back to the first page.
Hey, K-Line had already gone to China by 2000-01. MTH had always been either in China or Korea. When Dick Maddox announced Lionel was moving production to China, part of the reason given was that Lionel couldn't be competitive. That means one of two things: either price or product selection. Lionel's prices didn't drop much from the move to China, but new product development went ahead full speed.... that's what Maddox meant. Lionel couldn't pay American standard wages and spend the millions needed on new product development, that both MTH and K-Line were doing.
It's been written by others on this forum that we have met the enemy and the enemy is us.
How many people in this hobby today are WILLING to live with FEWER new products being made? Not many I suspect. We have become spoiled and spoiled rotten. And the nasty competitive nature of the company's making the trains hasn't helped. There have been more newly tooled train products made in the past 15 years than in the previous 75 years of the hobby. Yet it is STILL not enough. Remember, when the train companies were in the states, it was just one new locomotive introduced every few years if not longer. Yet at the time, that was good enough.
There are always posts on the other forums about what new products the train importers MUST make, as if the posters were ordering new train products like hamburgers from the drive-thru. And then when the product gets made, look out because here comes the criticism that the rivet count is wrong. Even Jerry Calabrese said Lionel cannot continue making totally new high end steam locomotives that they end up losing money on.
Do I wish the trains could still be made here in the US, which would benefit our own neighbors someplace? Absolutely. But I don't count rivets or worry about chuff rates. I use the very best, most reliable control system that has ever been developed: conventional! My tastes in trains are simple and I truly enjoy them.... I'm not missing not one thing. And my kinds of trains don't cost the train companies millions to put into production.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Moving manufacturing abroad to benefit from lower labor costs (salary), benefits, some sort of post retirement nest egg is enticing in a competitive market place. This despite the shorter-term qualified labor force issues, training, and quality challenges, and the added cost of getting the product back to the primary distribution points.
Try getting the same corporate executives to admit that the planned savings were offset by the "other" costs, not to mention a huge dent in the quality reputation that challenges sales and market share.....they can't or won't admit things haven't worked out and return the process to the U.S. They won't bite the bullet with the costs associated with a return. They won't admit to stockholders, financiers, and the Board of Directors that the move was a mistake, that things have not and will not work out long term.
Whether we are talking about model trains or life-saving medical devices and pharmaceuticals. This by and large has been and will be the trend.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
I disagree with those who think that "the good old days" are the "better old days". I also disagree with the concept that American-made = the best and imports are the worst. It sure doesn't hold true in the car industry. American cars regularly score far down the customer satisfaction list and US car makers are doing all kinds of things to try and stimulate interest in their products. Yes, train companies can and do make stripped down basic toy trains for kids. But obviously there is a demand for the high end trains. Otherwise, MTH, 3rd Rail, and even Lonel wouldn't be making the $1000+ a pop items. And look at how TMCC, DCS, and now Legacy have caught on with users, including young kids. People can wax nostalgic on the old Lionel, but this is a new day and age. Just like electric starters have replaced hand crank starters on cars and trucks, state-of-the-art electronics and numerous audio and programming features have supplemented basic trains. And 0-gauge toy trains are no longer limited to a kids-only product. If the train makers don't cater to the adults who buy the trains, they are losing out on a big chunk of profit. And adults aren't going to be happy with a basic train that just goes round and round and does nothing else. People have changed and evolved and become more complex since the early 50s. Do the toy train sets that are stripped down and inexpensive sell out? Most definitely. But is it because kids prefer the stripped down version over a Legacy or Proto 2 train? I think not. I think the inexpensive train sets fill the needs of adults who can't afford or won't gamble on the investment of an expensive set. I sure wouldn't want to drop thousands on a deluxe train set to have it get pushed into a corner to make room for a Playstation 3. And some folks simply can't afford to buy a deluxe set. So they buy the inexpensive one. But that doesn't mean that kids don't like the new features on the deluxe trains. I think those new features are needed to maintian the limited attention span of the kids of today. They can sit for hours in front of a video game. So you need something to keep them occupied when you go with trains. Again...just watching them go round and round ain't gonna cut it.Will Lionel and other toy train companies stop making high end locos because of the economy? I don't think so. They may cut back on the number of high end locos introduced and produced. And that will probably increase the price as well as the value of those items. But I doubt very much you will see high end items disappear. Lionel and other companies have too much $$$ invested in Proto 2 and Legacy systems to suddenly abandon them and go back to basic F-N-R locos and low end rolling stock.Dep
Virginian Railroad
Deputy wrote: I disagree with those who think that "the good old days" are the "better old days". I also disagree with the concept that American-made = the best and imports are the worst. It sure doesn't hold true in the car industry. American cars regularly score far down the customer satisfaction list and US car makers are doing all kinds of things to try and stimulate interest in their products. Yes, train companies can and do make stripped down basic toy trains for kids. But obviously there is a demand for the high end trains. Otherwise, MTH, 3rd Rail, and even Lonel wouldn't be making the $1000+ a pop items. And look at how TMCC, DCS, and now Legacy have caught on with users, including young kids. People can wax nostalgic on the old Lionel, but this is a new day and age. Just like electric starters have replaced hand crank starters on cars and trucks, state-of-the-art electronics and numerous audio and programming features have supplemented basic trains. And 0-gauge toy trains are no longer limited to a kids-only product. If the train makers don't cater to the adults who buy the trains, they are losing out on a big chunk of profit. And adults aren't going to be happy with a basic train that just goes round and round and does nothing else. People have changed and evolved and become more complex since the early 50s. Do the toy train sets that are stripped down and inexpensive sell out? Most definitely. But is it because kids prefer the stripped down version over a Legacy or Proto 2 train? I think not. I think the inexpensive train sets fill the needs of adults who can't afford or won't gamble on the investment of an expensive set. I sure wouldn't want to drop thousands on a deluxe train set to have it get pushed into a corner to make room for a Playstation 3. And some folks simply can't afford to buy a deluxe set. So they buy the inexpensive one. But that doesn't mean that kids don't like the new features on the deluxe trains. I think those new features are needed to maintian the limited attention span of the kids of today. They can sit for hours in front of a video game. So you need something to keep them occupied when you go with trains. Again...just watching them go round and round ain't gonna cut it.Will Lionel and other toy train companies stop making high end locos because of the economy? I don't think so. They may cut back on the number of high end locos introduced and produced. And that will probably increase the price as well as the value of those items. But I doubt very much you will see high end items disappear. Lionel and other companies have too much $$$ invested in Proto 2 and Legacy systems to suddenly abandon them and go back to basic F-N-R locos and low end rolling stock.Dep
I'm 19 and I don't think I have evolved that much like other people my age. I do like to play video games too, but not as much as I used to. I don't like complicated stuff, because my IQ is probably lower than most people, and it takes me a long time to learn new things. I'll just stick to what I've got because it's simple, easy, and reliable. That is one reason I would like to collect more postwar locomotives. All my trains are pretty much conventionally controlled except for one.
Deputy wrote: .........And adults aren't going to be happy with a basic train that just goes round and round and does nothing else.
.........And adults aren't going to be happy with a basic train that just goes round and round and does nothing else.
Not quite.
I appreciate the ability of my simple loop around the Christmas tree to turn a 5 year old's imagination loose for hours each and every visit. Likewise draw 100% of the kids (all ages) in the house and 80% of the adults away from the lure of the pc, playstation 3, and hdtv and surround just 20 feet away. The other adult 20% (guys) are hopelessly addicted to the sports on tv or watching their fantasy team go down in flames monitoring stats. If I put all the beer in a bar fridge in the LR with the trains and everyone else, I'd probably get more converts.
Could it be the simplicity is the draw?
Simplicity, quality time together, and imagination are not quite dead. No encouragement required. But that's just my . I think the train companies have not lost sight of that.
The dogs have the same effect on the kids, especially those (not mine) that don't or can't have one. They'd all rather (and do) get out of the house and go for a long walk with the dogs, or play with them in the yard, than sit glued to a screen. Their choice not mine. And the dogs don't come with a remote. A significant portion of the train market may actually be in the hunt for something that simplifies fun, not complicate it.
Building a fire in the winter and just sitting there watching it is also a major draw too. Don't forget the hot chocolate and marshmallows. And I wonder why there are no glum little faces when I pull out a Grimm's Fairy Tales book and start reading aloud. The little ones (10 and under) all gravitate to the LR away from the din, with no enticement required other than the lure of an adult who pays attention to them. I'd rather be running my trains than pouring through an owners manual or website to figure out or fix something, but that's me. Sad to say, an argument with my wife is more fun than that!
My point is this. The gadgets and technology still aren't the major market draw for many in the model/toy (whatever) train market. Some of us purposely want to escape the complexity and frenzy that has become our lives. Nor are has technology become a requisite to holding one's attention and providing enjoyment, young or old.
For many of us, more (more technology and more trains) is not better. For some of us, the train hardware (and software) are secondary to the track selected, the layout, the operating accessories, the scenicing, and the ability to plug in the transformer and go.
I drive two cars, an (ancient) Corvette and a 5 year old Infinity G35 Coupe, neither one of which's gadgets replace the thrill of a 135 mph blast, a mountain twisty, a stoplight challenge, or an exit ramp at speed. The Corvette astounds me for the performance it provides 39 years after the date of manufacture. BTW, I'm out shopping on the net for my next set of grippy tires......not an MP3, satelite radio, portable Nav, or BlueTooth conversion. Do I have this stuff in one or more of my cars? Yes. Do I use them? Yes. Do they light my fire? Nope, just tools, sometimes useful, sometimes entertaining, but not the center of my enjoyment, the driving.
Jon and Rich are more interested in displacement and what (illegal) exhaust they can get away with on their motocycles, not the gadgets. BTW, the driving in the NH White mountains during a recent vacation was really fun for wife and I. The Mount Washington climb and descent on a "road" without guardrails, glancing at a sheer 1000 foot drop......technology was forgotten, except perhaps for the abs and disc brakes.
We can't all be considered neanderthal seniors hanging on the the last vestiges of "the good old days," can we?
Now if I could just get off the internet...........Having the world at my fingertips and being able to read up on anything and everything is too much for me.
Jack: You almost had me believeing it....until you mentioned the internet. Poof....your theory goes up in smoke. You wouldn't even be able to expound your theory to a large train audience if it wasn't for something that is so taken for granted today...the computer. I suspect a lot of the "fascination" among kids depends on what part of the country they are brought up in as well as how much the parents are interested in them and how much time and money parents are willing to spend on kids and their education with modes of transportation. Big city kids have almost zero contact with trains. Probably because the closest thing they see to a daily train is the subway. Amtrack passenger trains have become a luxury item, where before they were a regular means of transport (before the car took over). Local interburan trains exist, but they are more a nuisance for most folks. Simplicity is the draw? Not sure you can come to that conclusion when all you or anyone you know are only exposed to simple trains. I think to reach a conclusion of simplicity vs modern, you'd have to use and show both types to kids and adults from all over the country and all walks of life. Show them ALL that can be done with a simple loco and a modern one. Obviously a very young child isn't going to appreciate all the features of a Proto 2 or Legacy loco. You could motorize a brick and clamp a whistle on it and they'll dance with glee. I am talking about kids who are old enough to appreciate the difference between simple and modern systems. I did a little "backwards math" and 5 years old is kindergarten. That's hardly an age where any kid can appreciate what modern vs simple locos can do. I was 7 when I saw my first elaborate Lionel layout (52 years ago) and it was a postwar F3 and steamer. I was in awe back then of a remote control whistle and smoke coming out of the steamer. If I hopped into a time machine back then and set it to 2008 and saw all the things trains could do today, I would probably just keel over in shock.
I think, and I think it reflects in what the train companies are producing, that making trains as realistic as possible is what is going to keep kids and adults interested in trains. Yes, there are "retro sets" being produced. But I wonder if they are aimed at "nostalgia buyers", or folks who want a little more than a basic set, but not as much as a full race Legacy or Proto setup.
Here's the thing... Lionel HAS cut production. Look at all the items they have had in the catalogs that they have NOT produced over the last 8 years. My LTSs can't get Lionel product, yet the MASSIVE mail order and internet train houses are stocked. IMHO, they are killing the guys that made them who they are. I would say 99% of the stock in my LTS is stuff guys are bringing in to sell, sad, incredibly sad. I have stuff I want to preorder, but his preorders aren't arriving.I'll be sending a few more emails to Lionel in the next few days. Pretty sad when the consumer has to send complaint letters and emails about things as simple as shipping...
RT: I think you are dead on with your assessment. I guess it boils down to (a) would you rather have the Mom and Pop store stay in business at the expense of putting Lionel and other makers out of business because they can't make enough profit to continue production, or (b)would you rather see the train makers sell to the big companies like Charles Ro, etc and see Lionel and the other train makers stay alive and continue production. I suppose it's similar to the complaint about Walmart vs Mom and Pop stores. Personally, I have no Mom and Pop hobby shops or any hobby shops in my crummy little town. So I have no choice but to buy online. So I buy from whoever sells the cheapest and give me the best service and selection. Sometimes it's a large supplier and sometimes it's a smaller one.
Not really much anyone can do about it. "It's a sign of the times"...to quote Petula Clark.
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