LET'S TRY TO KEEP THE LIONEL/MTH....

[AlanRail]

John

No one was implying that you should not support Lionel in this matter; either with your pocketbook or your heart. Or that there aren't people on both sides spinining tales until were all dizzy.

The first refuge of a scoundrel is patriotism ( waive the flag) the second is conspiracy ( they are all out to get me). Here no one has yet to raise the flag and claim MTH is unpatriotic ( although it has come close) so instead they are going for the conspiracy theory.

Lionel has said time and time again that its lawyer's approach was faulty. So then maybe they forgot to look for the Korean-MTH connection. Do you think?

As Paul Simon once wrote: " A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.." Lionel people will continue to give Lionel the benefit of the doubt, or create doubt whenever necessary. I think this story is another spin and here it has us talking on that.

I'll continue to buy Lionel too and wait an see if MTH ever gets a dime. I think the real losers here are MTH's attorneys who took the case on contingency. Imagine; 1/3 of nothing won't pay the rent.


Alan

[Anonymous]

Believe it or not, I DO buy MTH trains. Their Rugged Rails NYC caboose gives you a nice looking car for the price Lionel gets for an 027 piece of junk from warmed over postwar tooling and their INNOVATIVE subway trains are truly expanding the 3-rail market. The court judgment, however is INSANE.

[nblum]

Someone, I forget who :), stated that the MTH attorneys took the case not on contingency but on a fee for service basis.

[AlanRail]

NEIL

Unless Mr. Coyote spills his lawyers can never say which it is; fee or contingency; but looking at the amount of the claim it sure looks like a contingency -type case; Most IP cases are because of the rather large awards for IP infringement issues.

Also it could be a blend of both; a fat fee in the beginning followed by a lower percentage too. So who knows for sure unless MTH says.

Alan

[Anonymous]

THERE IS A LOT A PRO AND CON HERE, BUT MAKING THE TRAINS HERE INSTEAD OF CHINA WOULD EMPLOYE PEOPLE HERE.NOT THERE.THAT'S THE TROUBLE ,ALL THE BIG CORPORATION TAKE EVERYTHING OVERSEAS TO MAKE THE BIG PROFIT WE SHOULD BE BOYCOTTING COMPANIES LIKE THESE AND GO BACK TO BUYING AMERICAN PRODUCTS MADE HERE.MY POINT IS THEY WANT TO TAKE OUR MONEY , BUT NO JOBS HERE TO BUY THIS STUFF .HOW CAN I FEEL SORRY FOR EITHER ONE WHEN IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY AND NOT THE HOBBIEST.

[AlanRail]

TONKA

So you're the one boycotting products made overseas!
I was wondering who that was; Gotta tell you that most if not all of the appliances you use from your microwave oven to your TV are made overseas.

So you dont cook or watch TV too. Or are you just down on MTH and Lionel

Alan

next time use a larger font in your threads.

[Anonymous]

Lionel sure got burned by the asians. With the Dollar dropping like a rock, Michigan would look real good except Lionel sold their plant contents for pennies on the dollar. They should've hung onto that stuff. Now, they probably couldn't take the molds THEY OWN out of China.

[Blueberryhill RR]

QUOTE: Originally posted by route1rails

It's unfortunate that our hobby has been caught up in this. But if past events are any indication of the future, the Lionel name will continue. I'd say the greatest threat to our hobby is our age group continuing to age, our basements filling with treasures to the point of no room and our kids /grandkids interest in instant satisfaction toys. Maybe Lionel's Polar Express set and the movie are coming out at just the right time, for many reasons.

Tom

I agree. My grandson would rather play with his Play Station. Kids seem to be interested only in action figures and violence.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tonkasrme

THERE IS A LOT A PRO AND CON HERE, BUT MAKING THE TRAINS HERE INSTEAD OF CHINA WOULD EMPLOYE PEOPLE HERE.NOT THERE.THAT'S THE TROUBLE ,ALL THE BIG CORPORATION TAKE EVERYTHING OVERSEAS TO MAKE THE BIG PROFIT WE SHOULD BE BOYCOTTING COMPANIES LIKE THESE AND GO BACK TO BUYING AMERICAN PRODUCTS MADE HERE.MY POINT IS THEY WANT TO TAKE OUR MONEY , BUT NO JOBS HERE TO BUY THIS STUFF .HOW CAN I FEEL SORRY FOR EITHER ONE WHEN IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY AND NOT THE HOBBIEST.

Hello Tonka,

Many agree with your views as do I, however, the unfortuante flip side of this coin is that prices on products would rise sharply due to higher labor costs. Sadly, even more companies are farming the work out overseas.

As long as consumers continue to demand low cost products and corporate profit margins are top priority, this trend will continue.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'm afraid it is merely wishful thinking to believe that any of the major manufacturers will return production to the US. These are businessmen in charge, not train lovers. No matter what happens, their profit margines will not be allowed to fall. It has always been true that you get what you pay for. The question is, are you willing to pay that much?

To take this foreign manufacturering question one step further, would you be willing to take a pay cut to keep your job? Many Americans are faced with this question every day. Some are not asked, but rather told that that is what will happen, no choice.

We no longer have a manufacturing economy in this country. As hard to believe as it is, this is a service economy. Just think about the kinds of jobs that can be outsourced, and those that can't.

[Anonymous]

You can thank the greedy and irresponsible unions for all of the manufacturing jobs going overseas.

I would like to boycott everything made in Red China, but It's hard to do. I read today that 70% of everything Walmart sells is made in Red China. They currently have 17 billion dollars of Red Chinese inventory on hand.[:(!]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bennie Zimmer

You can thank the greedy and irresponsible unions for all of the manufacturing jobs going overseas.

I would like to boycott everything made in Red China, but It's hard to do. I read today that 70% of everything Walmart sells is made in Red China. They currently have 17 billion dollars of Red Chinese inventory on hand.[:(!]

you are full of... VOTE UNION TO RESTORE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY

[AntonioFP45]

John, Ben

Relax, you're both PARTIALLY right!

Unions were established due to abuses by employers in the past dating back the robber baron period. I was a union steward when I worked for a transit company, however, I agree that there are times when unions use the same, shrewd bargaining tactics as the corporations that they are negotiating with. This winds up creating even more hostile work environments. Just examine a typical Class 1 railroad today. Negative feelings exist on both sides. The corporate or agency executives are by no means innocent, but their attitude is that they run the company and will do what they can to increase profits or reduce labor costs and unfortunately will no longer see the human issues, just the expense/profit issues. [V]

Look at a typical toy or electronics manufacturer of the 1980s. To attract good employees, the employer (usually) had to provide a 40 hour work week, offer health care benefits, sick time and/or vacation benefits. Another big factor: Liability insurance, as the lawsuit abuses began to escalate in that time period. And don't forget that the manufacturing equipment had to be serviced and maintained.

Fast forward to the 1990s. The employer is offered an opportunity to outsource the bulk of his production to China. So he gets to cut his labor force by 3/4 its former size, he no longer has to spend thousands of dollars in machine servicing & repair costs, his health care costs for employees "shrinks" greatly, the products are as good or even better in quality, the amount of Workman's Compenstaion cases drop like lead, and his profit margin: Climbs through the roof!

So for him, this is great! His company is viable and profits are rolling in. For the workers? They're hammered, of course and for the ones that are not skilled wind up working for minimum wage at places like Wal-Mart. The only silver lining out of this is that these workers pu***heir kids to get a good education and / or learn a trade that will always be in demand.

We all have to remember that American democracy, as it was in the past, is gone forever, sad to say. So guys, it's not worth flaming each other over this issue. We're stuck with the society that we have.

Realistically, a democrat or republican in the White House is not going to make a big difference as far as outsourcing. If the tax break were lifted from these companies that are outsourcing to other nations, what would happen? Business as usual, but the costs are just passed on to the consumer..............which is us.

[Anonymous]

MTH is a deperate company. They filed suite because they could not overtake Lionel through normal business competition. Their products are all me-too's. They have no brand heritage and they offer no differentiation over Lionel. The Lionel brand is too strong and has too much history for measly MTH to ever conquer. Give it up MTH.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bennie Zimmer

You can thank the greedy and irresponsible unions for all of the manufacturing jobs going overseas.

I would like to boycott everything made in Red China, but It's hard to do. I read today that 70% of everything Walmart sells is made in Red China. They currently have 17 billion dollars of Red Chinese inventory on hand.[:(!]

[Bob Keller]

Most people simply are not willing to pay a premium for something just because it is made in America. Whether it is toasters, boots, or electric trains. So if we blame anyone, it needs to be labor, management, and John Q. Public. In short, all of us.

http://howtobuyamerican.com/

So why don't we give this issue a rest?

[Anonymous]

If you want US built trains, Weaver makes a good product that is priced competitively with the big imports (including Lionel),.However, as BigBoy4005 pointed out, we no longer have a manufacturing economy here - for instance, we complain about gas prices without realizing that there are no new refineries being built; we cannot make more gasoline faster regardless of how much crude oil is in-house. Steel, chemicals, even wood in some cases, are in the same categories - cheaper to import from a long way off then to try to make here. Liability issues, labor problems, and environmental concerns make creating new industry almost impossible; no business wants to fight all of this so the work just goes overseas. And, price points have a huge impact on it.. Lets be real honest, we are all happier to spend a hypothetical 750.00 on an imported engine that would have cost us 1,750. 00 had it been built here. K-Line's latest stuff is the best example of this.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ogaugeoverlord

Most people simply are not willing to pay a premium for something just because it is made in America. Whether it is toasters, boots, or electric trains. So if we blame anyone, it needs to be labor, management, and John Q. Public. In short, all of us.

Can't get any plainer than that! We, as a nation are at fault: White, Black, Brown, Mixed, Conservative, Moderate, Liberal, Married, Single, Retired, Working.....................it's us!

We've become a society where we're eager to stick our heads in the sand and then point fingers at others for our economic situaion.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I hate to say this guys, but it may be television that has done this to our society. All of that advertising that pushes us to consume can't be a good thing, unless you are getting paid to produce it.

The trouble is not with the device itself, the device is a useful tool like any you might find in your workshop. No, the trouble is with the content of it's messages. Think about it!!! It is both seductive and insidious.

Look at the history of television, and the history of the toy train industry. Rewind 50 years and compare lifestyles in our society.

No wonder we like to escape back to the 50's.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pmberman

MTH is a deperate company. They filed suite because they could not overtake Lionel through normal business competition. Their products are all me-too's. They have no brand heritage and they offer no differentiation over Lionel. The Lionel brand is too strong and has too much history for measly MTH to ever conquer. Give it up MTH.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dbburr

QUOTE: Originally posted by pmberman

MTH is a deperate company. They filed suite because they could not overtake Lionel through normal business competition. Their products are all me-too's. They have no brand heritage and they offer no differentiation over Lionel. Give it up MTH.

Even though I'm against the MTH vs. QSI litigation action, we have to look at reality here. I have seen MTH O scale products up close. Their products are decent and well built and the customer support is not an illusion.

QUOTE: The Lionel brand is too strong and has too much history for measly MTH to ever conquer.

----Sorry but this statement just doesn't "fly". Depending on how legal and financial proceedings turn out, MTH or another company can "buyout" or consolidate with a company like Lionel. I hope this doesn't happen, and while it's unlikely it is possible. MTH's "measley" size is irrelevant. The final outcome depends on business and court decisions. The legal and business arenas today are now run by ambitious tigers with big claws! So outcomes often cannot be predicted until the final moments. A realistic scenario would be that MTH in the future could be in a position where it could afford to "buyout" Lionel. If Lionel's owner's are given a large enough offer, do you think that they would say no? In today's business environment, corporate rivalry is put aside when it comes to large scale transactions.

Many of us in the HO world were shocked when Athearn was bought out by Horizon. Sad to say but the reality is that corporate loyalty to customers today depends on the bottom line.

Another example: Who would've had thought that Kmart would have bought out Sears? Years back the very notion of this would have been laughed at.

Peace and High Greens!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

I hate to say this guys, but it may be television that has done this to our society. All of that advertising that pushes us to consume can't be a good thing, unless you are getting paid to produce it.

The trouble is not with the device itself, the device is a useful tool like any you might find in your workshop. No, the trouble is with the content of it's messages. Think about it!!! It is both seductive and insidious.

Look at the history of television, and the history of the toy train industry. Rewind 50 years and compare lifestyles in our society.

No wonder we like to escape back to the 50's.

Sorry, Elliot, but I can't put the blame for the state our nation is in on television. It's all of us that are to blame. We elected the politicians; we bought the products, we buy into the idea that material wealth is an OK thing.

I believe it was Antonio who wrote about why outsourcing is so prevalent. His points are right on. From a business owner's perpective, the costs are lower going to overseas labor. Charge the same price here & you make a killing.

The thought that the US will slide back into a 3rd world country doesn't enter the equation; all that matters is the profit now.

In a way, it's short term thinking that's hurting the country. But it's not television's fault that the people making the decisions lack vision.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Not to long ago a gentleman was on the O-gauge forum claiming he was planning on bringing a scale 4-4-0 to market. An american company, scale size, and without TMCC or sound. The asking price was to be around a 1000.00. The responses basicly ran the course of 1000.00 is to steep. I can't remember if it was going to be america made or not. But people like to pay lip service but when it comes right down to it, we vote with our wallet. And the voting seems to be, give me scale, detail, quality, and give it to me at a cheap price.
Bill

[Anonymous]

I understand that restitution must be made from stolen ideas and technology. Altho, I must make this statement, and correct me if I am wrong...

Wasn't Lionel trains the mfg co. that made it possible for this company to exist. Wasn't it Lionel that built up the customer base!! I still agree with a restitution but c'mon!!! I guess there are no little elements that Lionel has created over the years, from trains, to tech, to text, to PR, to organizational practices, to even marketing, that this company has utalized.

If this company puts Lionel out of business then I will see to it I never give them one single cent for aiding in the destruction of my company (ya - I keep it alive with my purchase just like everyone else). And ya know what? Other company... the consumer controls your fate as well!!!

[Anonymous]

Even if Lionel did go out of business as a result of the law suit, I will still continue to "vote with my wallet".

MTH will continue to get my business!!! I want the best operating, best sounding (my opinion) trains for my $$:



MTH Premier Big Boy at AGHRS.

[RI Jim]

I vote with my wallet too and I buy what I like, regardless of manufacturer. Not buying certain trains because of a lawsuit is nonsense IMHO.

[nblum]

It's not just the lawsuit that's influencing people, IMO.

[Anonymous]

Neil is correct.

Its not just the lawsuit. There are many influences...

The corporate espionage allegedly committed by Lionel and its minions, if true, is apalling (so far, the court systems, both in this country and Korea, support that the espionage did take place-I do not pretend to know enough to predict what the eventual outcome will be).

The interesting logic of those individuals who post that MTH should be boycotted for having copied old Lionel designs (designs whose patents have long since expired and fallen into the public domain), yet revere Williams for doing a wonderful job reproducing a great deal of Lionel's postwar repertoire (this is not a dig at Williams-he manufactures quality products-just to draw a contrast of how some view Williams is vs. MTH for doing essentially the same thing).

Individuals who speak of how terrible MTH PS1 is, while extolling the virtues of QSI, who designed it. (not a shot at QSI either, they make good quality products).

The juvenile (or perhaps senile) ramblings of the Z.W. Messengetti's of the world, attempting to float bizarre conspiracy theories in a desparate attempt to vindicate Lionel, at least in their own minds. If Lionel is innocent, they will need no such vindication, and certainly not in such a ludicrous manner.


Even with all of this nonsense to influence me, I will not be prevented from occasionally purchasing a Lionel product if I choose to do so. :)

In the meantime, most of my train $$ will go to MTH.


People preach that MTH is somehow evil for sueing (and apparently winning) in the case against Lionel where, so far, (according to the courts) MTH appears to be the wronged party.

Interesting logic.

[nblum]

Indeed, most people who feel negatively about MTH did so long before the misguided and trumped up lawsuit.

They reacted to MTH's misleading and derogatory advertising of the 1990s, the attempts to sabotage Atlas and K-Line's initial introductions of scale locomotives using information concerning those releases to come to market with exactly the same diesel in exactly the same road names at the same time.

Those who see MTH as a largely malign influence on the industry and hobby at this point note the total lack of collegiality and interest in common industry standards that would serve both the manufacturers and the consumers.

The final touch is the litigious approach to Lionel's coming out with scale locomotives that effectively competed with their own product and their attempt to bulldoze DCC manufacturers. Turn about isn't fair play in the MTH scheme of things. This litigious approach has intimidated some DCC manufacturers into not incorporating new features in their products. It has created a similar climate of animosity and loathing in the HO community that mirrors what MTH has created in the O gauge three rail community.

No amount of self-righteous nonsense PR about "stolen plans," which is transparently exaggerated and misleading will convince people that MTH is a positive influence in the hobby at this point. No volume of press releases will convince people in the industry that MTH has any claim to being the wronged party in its campaign of multiple attempts to win in court what it will never win in the marketplace. Enjoy their products by all means if one wishes, but claiming that those who do not wi***o buy their products because they are a bad actor in the industry are some sort of nutcases just doesn't jibe with history and the facts on the ground.

[maddognc]

Feel better Neil?