LET'S TRY TO KEEP THE LIONEL/MTH....

[Bob Keller]

....topics in as few threads as possible.

[Anonymous]

Since at least two posting left within the last 30 minutes suggesting that hobbyists displeased with MTH's actions alter their purchasing habits to show their displeasure have been deleted, should we conclude that such remarks are not welcome on this forum?

[Bob Keller]

Not at all. I e-mailed people on the deleted threads (before I deleted them) and told them they could re-post in one of the other threads.

At one point this morning there were four threads all posting the Lionel press release, which wasn't needed since we posted them on the forum and website yesterday.

I'd just like to remind forum members - no name calling - on either side.

[Anonymous]

How about a poll asking if this will influence their perception and purschacing of MTH products. Might be interesting. Bill

[Bob Keller]

Good idea, but too easily stacked one way or the other. Too many forum members have multiple identities....

[Anonymous]

The answer is easy. Boycott MTH trains.

[Anonymous]

Lets consolidate matters. I can see both sides of the issue. Lionel benefitted from stolen technology and should make MTH whole. However, the size of the jury award strains credulity. the real wild card in this is whether QSI will get a large award from MTH and where QSI may fit into Lionel's attack strategy. Trains are fun to play with but these events could dictate the very nature of the hobby for a generation to come. Move the posts, but DO NOT delete them, they are important to the hobby.

[Anonymous]

What does MTH mean?

[Anonymous]

MTH= Mike's Train House www.mth-railking.com

[Anonymous]

Link to court filing online:
http://www.trainminder.com/assets/files/LionelChapter11.pdf

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

What does MTH mean?

It will soon be MLTH = Mike's Lionel Train House

[highrailjon]

Please let me clarify my stance on MTH. My opinion of them has NOTHING to do with what ever happens to Lionel. I find fault with the company rushing to market a Protosound 1 board that requires a properly charged battery to even operate it, let alone if it doesnt permantently "scramble" the electronic chips of some engines. Then after money invested in this "research" they come out with Protosound 2 boards, which require the purchase of their DCS system which claims to be compatable with TMCC . Try and do a multi-engine lash-up on 2 TMCC engines using DCS only. I just feel as a hobbiest and consumer MTH has taken the wrong approach to gaining customers. In a nutshell its easy to see that whatever love of toy trains Mike Wolf had went right out the window with his sorry corporate goals.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: Please let me clarify my stance on MTH. My opinion of them has NOTHING to do with what ever happens to Lionel. I find fault with the company rushing to market a Protosound 1 board that requires a properly charged battery to even operate it, let alone if it doesnt permantently "scramble" the electronic chips of some engines.

Good point Highrail. This is the REAL reason MTH sales crashed after Korea Brass took these designs and installed TMCC. People want engines that run right and opted for the improved Lionel versions. Especially for $1,000 plus. Had MTH been importing a quality product, their sales would not of crashed.

[Anonymous]

It will soon be MLTH = Mike's Lionel Train House.

Dream on!, The bankrupt entity does not own the Lionel name OR TMCC. All Lionel, LLC owns is the Pre China dies, NOTHING MORE.
BTW, Mr Donaldson, why is it that you used to be pro Lionel but since SEPTEMBER, you switched to MTH.

[RI Jim]

Let's get several things straight here. The facts are that Lionel used plans belonging to MTH to produce locos and profited from their actions. MTH, defending their corporate rights, brought the case to court, the jury found for MTH and the judge upheld the jury's verdict. Lionel will appeal and a final decision is years off. In the meantime, Lionel files for Chapter 11 so they can continue operating. No emotional ranting by ill informed and/or ignorant people is going to change any of it. I for one, will continue to buy whatever O gauge product is offered that I like regardless of the brand name. Boycotting one brand or another is foolishness, IMHO.

[nblum]

"
Let's get several things straight here. The facts are that Lionel used plans belonging to MTH to produce locos and profited from their actions. "

Obviously these facts are in dispute. If consumers want to act based upon their view of what the "true" facts are, that is certainly their right, and it may be foolishness to me or you, but a matter of moral conviction to someone else. Personally, I can see their point, although at this point I would not go so far as to advocate that anyone boycott one or the other firm.

[route1rails]

It's unfortunate that our hobby has been caught up in this. But if past events are any indication of the future, the Lionel name will continue. I'd say the greatest threat to our hobby is our age group continuing to age, our basements filling with treasures to the point of no room and our kids /grandkids interest in instant satisfaction toys. Maybe Lionel's Polar Express set and the movie are coming out at just the right time, for many reasons.

Tom

[Back2Trains]

I agree with Tom, that the average age of our group is increasing. As I see it, the 3 rail hobby today is largely based on a bunch of older guys who had trains as kids and still like to play with them. I don't see us getting enough kids interested to really sustain the hobby at current levels. In 1950, trains were the biggest, best Christmas gifts and the big department stores went all out to sell them. But then, in 1950, trains themselves had much more importance in people's daily lives and kids were much more aware of them than today.

Jim

[Anonymous]

1. show a Kid an original Wild Wild West rerun, 2. Mention after viewing- how a raked & mowed, front lawn can get a ride to the local hobbie shop. 3. after entering hobbie shop remember why your there....not for YOU, for the Kid! 4. mention how a neighborhood mowing business or newspaper route can match Dad's/Mom's bucks just like a 401K.
5. engage the Child's mind in gear and let the steam fly!

[Anonymous]

Sad to see a toy business go "Republican", ie... do wrong, get caught, and then be rewarded by consumers. Inform your Kids that this IS wrong! let them read about the case so they'll make an informed decision on their own and grow up learning right from wrong and that spending time with Mom & Dad is more than just hobbies.
Ever see parents at their kids Ball Game? Kids can learn a lot, a lot of good or a lot of bad! Introduce a Kid to Model Railroading and a way of life through researching , planning, paying attention to details, determanation, and self worth/ confidence building. Above all Honesty, integrity.
If a company or business is doing wrong, tell them through boycotting, it's one of our country's last rights left. KEEP'M ROLLI'N

[Anonymous]

[

QUOTE: Originally posted by FullSteam

Sad to see a toy business go "Republican", ie... do wrong, get caught, and then be rewarded by consumers.

Oh for the love of Pete....can't we keep politics out of trains. Or I'd have to remind you that the "Enron" scandle happened under the former president, and was caught under this one. Same with the Adelphia cable scandle, the California energy crisis scandle, the UN oil for food scandle, and a ton else. Let's talk about trains and leave politics out of it! If not I'll suggest that the toy business go "Democrat"...ie...take away half of my trains and give them to someone who never had a train before.[:)]

BTW.... the jury verdict was larger than the actual damages. This is normal because it sends a message of being punitive. It may hurt Lionel in the short run, but someone will own it, at least the name. Remember that this is not the same Lionel of 100 years ago. The company hasn't just changed owners, it's changed in just about every aspect.

And don't worry about the hobby or about it's participants getting older. If there is a demand, there will be a supply. I'm only 33 and I'm using my dad's 1947 Lionel 2025. I've got a layout now because I want to use it with my 11 month old in a couple years. I'm also using my dad's original ZW transformer, on newer Gargraves track I bought on Ebay, with a MTH proto 1 diesel that I am converting to run with Lionel TMCC. So where there's a will there is a way.

This hobby will continue to change and evolve. Technology will improve, some prices will go up, and some will come down. If people want a cheap starter set in Walmart, then some company will build one (although it will be made in China). The cool thing about this hobby is that we get to tinker and play. I can almost guarentee you that 50 years after it was "popular" no one will be talking about the playstation 2. There is no imagination there. The toys that become big boy toys are the ones that grab hold of your imagination and keep you up at night dreaming of them.

One final rant....Polar Express may spark some interest, but is not going to turn around anything. The sets are running for $500 or more. Come on. How many people are going to run out and be able to get one. Not enough newbees like me to make a difference. If they wanted to spark interest, they should have had a $99, 4 car, made in China, rugged set that kids will enjoy playing with. And one that the parents will allow them to play with instead of protecting their investment.

Ok, I'm done, let the flames begin....

[Anonymous]

no flames coming from me on this one, you did a good enough job on your own!
Who knows, one day you might put them out and see the real picture there. Best of luck ............

[mackb4]

All I can say about the matter of MTH/LIONEL is ,"What comes around,goes around".MTH for years have reproduced mirror copies of Lionel products.Now if MTH had permission to do so,I don't know.But for Lionel to do what they are accussed of doing is a bad thing.But don't bite the hand that feed you.This will be a smear for MTH to have to deal with in the model train business for years to come.I for one wasn't happy to see Lionel go over seas but I wouldn't have thought MTH would have gone this far !

[Anonymous]

I keep reading statements that Mike Wolf is a copycat. As pointed out in another thread, the Koreans stole the MTH blueprints for Lionel, who then produced locomotives with the stolen MTH blueprints. Who's copying who? Lionel got caught and now they need to pay. Simple as that. I don't want to see Lionel go out of business but justice needs to be served. If Mike ends up owning Lionel, I think it will be a plus for the hobby. I hardly think Wellspring and Jerry Calabrese are really "train guys". They'll license the Lionel name on everything they can. All they are interested in is milking every dollar out of the company.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by plasticlizard

[

QUOTE: Originally posted by FullSteam

Sad to see a toy business go "Republican", ie... do wrong, get caught, and then be rewarded by consumers.

Oh for the love of Pete....can't we keep politics out of trains. Or I'd have to remind you that the "Enron" scandle happened under the former president, and was caught under this one. Same with the Adelphia cable scandle, the California energy crisis scandle, the UN oil for food scandle, and a ton else. Let's talk about trains and leave politics out of it! If not I'll suggest that the toy business go "Democrat"...ie...take away half of my trains and give them to someone who never had a train before.[:)]

BTW.... the jury verdict was larger than the actual damages. This is normal because it sends a message of being punitive. It may hurt Lionel in the short run, but someone will own it, at least the name. Remember that this is not the same Lionel of 100 years ago. The company hasn't just changed owners, it's changed in just about every aspect.

And don't worry about the hobby or about it's participants getting older. If there is a demand, there will be a supply. I'm only 33 and I'm using my dad's 1947 Lionel 2025. I've got a layout now because I want to use it with my 11 month old in a couple years. I'm also using my dad's original ZW transformer, on newer Gargraves track I bought on Ebay, with a MTH proto 1 diesel that I am converting to run with Lionel TMCC. So where there's a will there is a way.

This hobby will continue to change and evolve. Technology will improve, some prices will go up, and some will come down. If people want a cheap starter set in Walmart, then some company will build one (although it will be made in China). The cool thing about this hobby is that we get to tinker and play. I can almost guarentee you that 50 years after it was "popular" no one will be talking about the playstation 2. There is no imagination there. The toys that become big boy toys are the ones that grab hold of your imagination and keep you up at night dreaming of them.

One final rant....Polar Express may spark some interest, but is not going to turn around anything. The sets are running for $500 or more. Come on. How many people are going to run out and be able to get one. Not enough newbees like me to make a difference. If they wanted to spark interest, they should have had a $99, 4 car, made in China, rugged set that kids will enjoy playing with. And one that the parents will allow them to play with instead of protecting their investment.

Ok, I'm done, let the flames begin....

Oh no.....Here we go again!

[railfanespee4449]

I think MTH has some decent products, but could they PLEASE KEEP THEIR NOSE OUT OF LIONEL"S BUSINESS AND PRODUCE SOME ITEMS THAT LIONEL DOES NOT HAVE LIKE A 4--8-0, or more starter sets with semi-scale 2-8-0's

[Anonymous]

I've read in other posts that Lionel's estimated revenue (not profit) per year is 60-100 million. The theft happened 5 years ago. IMHO, the verdict for $40 million doesn't make sense. I think Lionel should be liable, but this verdict smells of another "lawsuit lottery" winner.

What has me steamed is how far MTH went--read the MTH press release at http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/005/518tpuns.asp
and ask yourself how many of those engines were not produced by Lionel first. And, how can you award damages for future lost profits when the competition can't produce competing products?

We don't seem to have a say in what happens in the courts, but do have a say in what happens in the stores. I think MTH will suffer a great deal of backlash and IMHO it is deserved.

Finally, while we may not have all the facts, I for one am doubtful that the jury had all the facts. Our legal system has long since forgone fact in favor of opinion. The winners in jury trials always rebut the critics with accusations of ignorance. MTH's own press release reports that judge called the jury "especially sophisticated" because 5 of the 8 jurors had college degrees (implying the other 3 did not). Is that our definition of sophisticated? I wonder if any of the 8 jurors had a toy train?

[Anonymous]

I also take exception to the idea that the jury was sophisticated. Define "Sophisticated." There are many people without college degrees who are more "sophisticated" than many people who have them.

Tony

[Back2Trains]

plasticlizard: glad to hear you are in the hobby. Too many young guys aren't and a lot of us older guys may have only 10 or 20 years left. When my grandsons come over, they play with, among others, a train that was first played with by me, then their mother and aunt for whom a few accessories were purchased and now, them.
This hobby allows kids to be much more creative than TV, video games,etc. do. Unfortunately the competition for their attention is extremely strong.
A few days ago on another thread I made a case for having accessories and operating cars on show layouts. Do this, let the kids pu***he buttons, see what these things do and then watch them nag their parents for a train.
I just saw this morning that KMart and Sears are merging. What a market for trains and all through one retailer! Getting train sets into those stores will dramatically increase visibility. But, not just one $250.00 set, but basic sets at blow-out price levels. And not just sets, but extra track, separate sale cars, FREE catalogs, etc. People who buy a basic set very soon, perhaps immediately want extra track and one or 2 more cars. And cut the prices to bring people in. I see no reason why a section of track should cost $2.00 or more, except that they can get that much for it.
One last thing: if a disaster like MTH's PS 1 was built by the auto industry, the government would long ago have demanded a mandatory recall at no cost to the owners.

Jim

[Anonymous]

MTH was founded on the principal of copying everything Lionel made. MTH didn't care, they just blatantly stole every idea Lionel had. As a business man, this has always incensed me and as a result, I will NEVER buy a MTH product. The latest lawsuit is icing on the cake. Now I really hate MTH. I think they will suffer an incredible backlash from actions. Was Lionel wrong? Absolutely. But only after years and years of MTH stealing everything Lionel had at the expense ot the complete toy train industry. I will tell you right now that if Mike's name is EVER associated with Lionel, I will leave the toy train collecting industry. BOYCOTT MTH NOW !!!!!!!