LET'S TRY TO KEEP THE LIONEL/MTH....

[Anonymous]

"Boycott MTH now"?

You have got to be kidding (but I know that you are not).

1) As long as MTH continues to manufacture the trains and control system that I want, I will continue to purchase from them. No one can or will tell me what I should or should not buy. (and yes, I am very biased toward MTH).

2) Lionel is not the Lionel of our childhood, and has not been for years. Lionel has been owned by various individuals/companies since the end of the postwar era, each with its own ideas of what it should be. Whoever the current owner is, simply has the rights to the name, dies, logos, orange and blue boxes, etc. It absolutley matters not whether it is owned by Wellspring, General Mills, Richard Kughn, Mike Wolf, or someone else (other than the fact that if Mike Wolf owned it, there would be less competition in the market place) as long as they do a good job with the product and marketing.

3) There are still some that look at Lionel as a villain from what happened to Ives in the late 1920's and early 1930's. That is ridiculous too.

We don't even know what the outcome of all this will be yet.

We all need to just "get over it"...

[Anonymous]

MTH was founded on the principle of copying everything Lionel made? Give me a break! Don't you think that Lionel would have sued MTH long ago if the circumstances were even remotely similar?

As for jury selection, do most of you think that you should have been on the jury to straighten things out? With some of the leftist attitude posts on this thread and those previously, I don't think that any of us could have done any better than the jury that was selected. Given that the points of the lawsuit were at times very technical, could it be be that some of those "sophisticated" jury members had a college degree that might be of some relevance to the case like mechanical engineering? Or would you ratther have a bunch of backwoods hillbillies with 5 teeth between them deciding the verdict?

If not buying MTH products helps some of you sleep better at night, then more power to you. Cutting your nose off despite your face isn't going to change was has or in most cases what will happen to MTH/Lionel. I'm going to continue to buy product from who I want based on the product--not on what's happened. I'm 28 years old and fairly new to toy trains, and I think it's way to early(if at all) to get that frustrated over a hobby.

Robert

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ogaugeoverlord

....topics in as few threads as possible.

Ogaugeoverlord,

With humble respect, as I'm just a short time visitor, if you don't mind my pointing out: It seems that compared to the MR and TRAINS forum moderators, you seem to keep a rather tight and restrictive reign here. That is your right as you're the boss.

Our moderator,Bergie, gives us quite a bit of "Leeway" on the other forums and allows us to police ourselves. Guys like BigBoy4005 and JoeFugate do an exceptional job of encouraging things to "keep flowing" when "flame ups" do occur. Bergie, only jumps in when things "get out of hand" or we e-mail a reasonable complaint.

You state: As few threads as possible. Why? If the hobbyists here wi***o talk, discuss, learn, exchange info, or even vent, then as long as they "keep it clean" what is the problem? Redundant topics show up on the other forums but what often happens is that "Newbies" see them for the first time and chime right on in so things stay interesting.

Well, I guess I've overstayed my welcome. Drop in on the MR forum sometime. Everyone's welcome! [:)][:D][8D][;)][8)]

Peace out!

[macdannyk1]

Ogaugeoverlord is trying to keep the number of overlapping/duplicate threads down, not restricting content. I hate to see the same thing posted on umpteen different threads, pushing down threads that might actually be interesting to me.
And there's always K-Line, Atlas and 3rd Rail, if you're dissatisfied with your current importer.

[Bob Keller]

The purpose of the website is to attract newcomers to the hobby.

If someone comes to the website, sees 15 threads where people are attacking each other over topics that the newbie can't comprehend, he or she will probably leave, never to return.

The exchange of ideas between hobbysts is great.

Fist fights over who is Team Orange and who is Team Purple are stupid. We've given forum members great leeway in their past discussions. All I want are some adult conversation without calling each other names. There is currently very little discussion here, just two sides yelling at each other and I'm a little fed up with it.

[Anonymous]

Antonio, if you think this is bad, try the OGR forum. There is no freedom of speech there and this topic would never be allowed to be discussed. The threads get deleted or locked because the moderator is a control freak. I would give CTT credit for allowing us to discuss this issue.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by macdannyk1

Ogaugeoverlord is trying to keep the number of overlapping/duplicate threads down, not restricting content. I hate to see the same thing posted on umpteen different threads, pushing down threads that might actually be interesting to me.
And there's always K-Line, Atlas and 3rd Rail, if you're dissatisfied with your current importer.

Hello MacDanny,

A good example on one of my points is Ogaugeoverlords post on the "tribute to Mike Wolf" thread. He suggested that the discussions referring to the QSI litigations that have impacted the HO & N market, be kept on the MR Forum. My question is still "WHY?"

Many of your fellow 3 rail and O gaugers participated and provided input on the MTH/QSI litigation topics on the MR Forum! It was GREAT to read input from the CTT guys! [:D][8D]

If a thread is repititious or boring, it's so simple to just ignore it. [:p] The threads that are interesting to one can be quickly brought back to the front page.

But again, when posting on this forum, it seems (to me) that I had better tread more carefully then when on my usual TRAINS and MR. I find this a tad dissappointing as this entire collection of forums is about trains, the one subject that should somehow bind us together. [;)]

Peace and High Greens!

[Anonymous]

I say, I pox on both your houses. For years, Lionel put out an inferior product, and charged higher and higher prices for the product, depending on shlubs like me who called themselves collector/operators to purchase their ever increasing product line. Then Mike Wolf imported three frieight locomotives, and Lionel pulled his retail dealership agreement.

Then Mike started producing quality detailed product at competitive prices in relatively small numbers, but equipped with a sound system that is now only obsolete, and nothing but an electronic headache.

Lionel then developed TMCC, which revolutionized train control, and brought the hobby into the 21st Century. At first, they would not allow any other manufacturers to use this control system, but eventually licenced its use.

MTH, still smarting from its original dispute with Lionel, developed another wireless control system, that in my opinion, has the potential to be superior, but is not from my experience, very reliable. How do you wire a big layout anyway, and avoid lost signals, runaway trains, trains that can't be found,etc. I sure have tried.

But this latest lawsuit does involve an incidious problem in intellectual property rights that has arisen from knockoffs made in Asian lands. Lionel did steal MTH's blueprints and copied their products. Look at them. Whether it is the diecast scale locomotives that are the subject of the suit, or the RailKing Streamlined Passenger Cars that Lionel copied, there is no question that MTH's product was "ripped off" and sold for profit by Lionel. That is why MTH won the suit.

I have read above that the facts are in dispute. Let me explain something to you lay people. Lionel will appeal based on legal error, not on a dispute of the facts. The fact finder jury has already determined the facts, and no appellate court, certainly not the US CIrcuit Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit in Cincinnati, will overturn that finding of fact, unless there is almost literally no evidence to support the finding. The only way this judgment will get set aside will be based on some technical legal issue, or as some call them, legal technicalities, which usually, but not always involve the admission of evidence that the jury was privy or not privy to, and should or should not have been presented. That being said, Lionel damaged MTH, and now as some others have said, we will see if QSI (owned now by Lionel and the manufacturer of that horrid system called Protosounds One) will be successful in procuring a judgment against MTH for vioations of the same intellectual property rules in the development of the DCS system. That case is much more difficult to bring and be successful with.

But boycotting MTH because of this lawsuit is stupid. I started "boycotting" them about three or four years ago after purchasing a few Proto II locomotives, and later attempting to install a DCS system on a layout that is 48 feet long.

What will come of all of this? Hopefully a settlement between MTH and Lionel that will improve the compatability of DCS and TMCC, and allow both to operate as designed. Perhaps this and the Polar Express craze will inject life into our hobby, something it has sorely missed for years.

We can only hope so.

[Anonymous]

Miles,

If you want to discuss wiring for DCS, I will be very happy to do so. I too had difficulties when the size of a loop exceeded 60-70'. We have been operating a floor display layout with both DCS and TMCC for almost two years now. We have excellent signal strength and very solid control. I would be happy to assist via email if you desire:

[e-mail]

[Anonymous]

Well, I think Mike is going to find out that he can't hit flies with the big guys. Kughn. Young and the Davis family could each buy and sell Mike. Now , the Lionel Countersuits are coming. QSI will get to pick the bones.

[AntonioFP45]

Ogaugeoverlord,

You've deleted the Tribute to Mike Wolf topic.

IMHO, It's too bad. If you read my last post I was suggesting that everyone think, cool their jets and discuss it. [;)][:D] No, of course no one can accurately predict the litigation outcomes but the thread, towards the end wasn't turning into a "shouting match" as you indicated. Some of the points brought up by both sides were intelligent and again I thought I stated a reasonable suggestion that we keep cool and post intelligently. [8D] You would not even allow the opportunity to let that happen. [V]

You stated before your concern for "Newbies". Overall the number of threads that are or were "controversial" is quite low. Intelligent newbies would not have a problem reading the posts, drawing conclusions and asking questions if some points are unclear.

But again, I acknowledge that you are in charge here but with all due respect, it "seems" that at times you're rather "heavy-handed and restrictive" when it comes to the expression of disagreements between posters. If there is a flare up and it cools down, then why not let it continue as we are here to talk about trains and everything that's related. Reality is not always fluffy.

No disrespect intended towards you, Ogaugeoverlord, but I guess I've just gotten too used to the MR moderator "Bergie" who lets us police ourselves and only jumps in when things start getting out of hand, which did not happen in this case.

I've been enjoying some of the threads here, especially the one about the bus. I'll continue to visit and hope to make positive contributions.

Peace out!

[Bob Keller]

Sorry, wrong guy. I'm not the one who deleted the thread.

[Anonymous]

CHAT TRANSCRIPT ONLINE....

http://www.lionel.com

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ogaugeoverlord

Sorry, wrong guy. I'm not the one who deleted the thread.

My apologies Ogaugeoverlord! Wrong assumption on my part.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mileswrich

I say, I pox on both your houses. For years, Lionel put out an inferior product, and charged higher and higher prices for the product, depending on shlubs like me who called themselves collector/operators to purchase their ever increasing product line. Then Mike Wolf imported three frieight locomotives, and Lionel pulled his retail dealership agreement.

Then Mike started producing quality detailed product at competitive prices in relatively small numbers, but equipped with a sound system that is now only obsolete, and nothing but an electronic headache.

Lionel then developed TMCC, which revolutionized train control, and brought the hobby into the 21st Century. At first, they would not allow any other manufacturers to use this control system, but eventually licenced its use.

MTH, still smarting from its original dispute with Lionel, developed another wireless control system, that in my opinion, has the potential to be superior, but is not from my experience, very reliable. How do you wire a big layout anyway, and avoid lost signals, runaway trains, trains that can't be found,etc. I sure have tried.

But this latest lawsuit does involve an incidious problem in intellectual property rights that has arisen from knockoffs made in Asian lands. Lionel did steal MTH's blueprints and copied their products. Look at them. Whether it is the diecast scale locomotives that are the subject of the suit, or the RailKing Streamlined Passenger Cars that Lionel copied, there is no question that MTH's product was "ripped off" and sold for profit by Lionel. That is why MTH won the suit.

I have read above that the facts are in dispute. Let me explain something to you lay people. Lionel will appeal based on legal error, not on a dispute of the facts. The fact finder jury has already determined the facts, and no appellate court, certainly not the US CIrcuit Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit in Cincinnati, will overturn that finding of fact, unless there is almost literally no evidence to support the finding. The only way this judgment will get set aside will be based on some technical legal issue, or as some call them, legal technicalities, which usually, but not always involve the admission of evidence that the jury was privy or not privy to, and should or should not have been presented. That being said, Lionel damaged MTH, and now as some others have said, we will see if QSI (owned now by Lionel and the manufacturer of that horrid system called Protosounds One) will be successful in procuring a judgment against MTH for vioations of the same intellectual property rules in the development of the DCS system. That case is much more difficult to bring and be successful with.

But boycotting MTH because of this lawsuit is stupid. I started "boycotting" them about three or four years ago after purchasing a few Proto II locomotives, and later attempting to install a DCS system on a layout that is 48 feet long.

What will come of all of this? Hopefully a settlement between MTH and Lionel that will improve the compatability of DCS and TMCC, and allow both to operate as designed. Perhaps this and the Polar Express craze will inject life into our hobby, something it has sorely missed for years.

We can only hope so.

Thank you, and [#welcome] to the forum. That is the most common sense filled and logical accounting of this situation that anyone has ever given on these forums, and I completely agree.

One minor distinction, and please correct me if I'm wrong. This really doesn't change the outcome of the case, as Lionel is still guilty of wrong doing. From what I have read, Lionel did not seek to gain access to the MTH plans, but when offered, did not refuse them. If this was a criminal case, it would be akin to the difference between first and second degree, intent.

I don't really see Lionel getting this reversed on appeal, though they sound optomistic. They may get damages reduced substantially. There is always the possibility that they will squirm out on a technicality. Future damages? After being ordered to not produce the models in question. That seems a bit draconian.[;)]

Like you, my mind was made up about MTH electronics long before this lawsuit. I made the decision based on the needs of my model railroad.

It just frustrates me so much, that our hobby has to be dragged through the courts at all. MTH has proven that it can sue and win in court, but that does not improve the hobby. I have stopped caring whether MTH is right or wrong, because I feel they have lost sight of the ball. I know that there are a lot of people out there, that share in my frustration.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

I have stopped caring whether MTH is right or wrong, because I feel they have lost sight of the ball. I know that there are a lot of people out there, that share in my frustration.

There are also a lot of people out here who think that MTH continues to make the highest quality, best bang-for-the-buck trains on the market today with the best operating system available. All of the naysaying in the world will not change that.

[3railguy]

I just counted four new thread topics on the subject. LOL!

[Anonymous]

I read Lionel’s Moderated Chat transcript and it appears to me that it was like preaching to the choir. Only a couple of hardball questions were asked and all the others were softballs. But I sort of expected that, since they emphasized the term “Moderated” chat in their notices.

This entire issue of MTH vs. Lionel is kind of disheartening to me as most of my collection is comprised of pre and postwar Lionel and the fond memories my Lionel trains give to me. I never did buy much Lionel Modern Era stuff because I just felt it just wasn’t up to par. Or sure, I do have some Modern Era Lionel locos and rolling stock, but the great balance of my collection is comprised of MTH.

Yet, I would never want to see Lionel go under or suffer what it is going through now. Non-the-less, I have mixed feelings about Lionel, especially since they moved production off shore, and this resulting move didn’t bring their prices down at all.

Then what about Lionel’s recent stupid move into HO. Yeah, a bunch of guys flamed me over on that other board when I voiced my opinion on Lionel’s move to HO. What about all the money Lionel pissed away on that idiotic venture? Money that could have been well spent on their core business of O-gauge trains.

What amazes me though, is that Lionel never protected many of their patents, copyrights and intellectual properties. Take for instance the art for their very famous 1954 catalog cover. In 1999 MTH used the same image for their catalog, then Williams recently followed suit and used that image in their advertising. Why is it that Lionel’s management were never held accountable for not protecting their patents, copyrights and intellectual properties.

In my opinion the Lionel name, has been suited and courted by a succession of corporate pin-heads who’s only real motive was to use Lionel’s most recognized name in the world, to churn perceived profits. In doing so, Lionel has become the proverbial corporate “trophy wife”. But now the trophy wife is showing signs of aging and is carrying along a lot of excess baggage. Making her a lot less attractive.

Some guys rant and rave and blame Mike Wolf for Lionel’s woes. To be sure, Mike Wolf is a savvy business man and , in my opinion, a genius. He did what any savvy business man would do and that is, he took advantage of the opportunities he encountered.

If Lionel was managed and operated correctly, there wouldn’t have been such great need for, and acceptance of, the products manufactured by Mike Wolf, Gerry Williams or Maury Klein.

If Lionel’s management is searching for blame--searching for a devil to blame this all on, all they have to do is look honestly into a full length mirror.

BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[nblum]

Definitely some truth to what you say. But remember that *** Kughn and Neil Young, and *** Maddox, all key figures in Lionel's innovation and success, as well as other train guys like Ken Silvestri and Bob Grubba, all were Lionel guys too. People tend to forget that the last 20 years at Lionel hasn't been all about corporate suits who don't know or care about trains. In fact, a good argument can be made that the brief, unlamented Gary Moreau era, was the exception, rather than the rule. And even under Moreau, guys like Silvestri and Grubba, and others we don't know about, kept Lionel moving forward in many ways.

[Anonymous]

New Hi Rail Times!!! Go To www.coilcouplers.com

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

New Hi Rail Times!!! Go To www.coilcouplers.com

That was very creative the way the story was laid out. I have to admit though, I find the conspiracy theory in the story hard to believe (that Lionel was set up by Mr. "Coyote"). Basically a couple of guys messed up royally and Lionel got hammered as a result.

I do hope that Lionel does pull through, just as it did years back when it filed bankruptcy then.

[Anonymous]

No flames from here plasticlizard.
You wrote some really thoughtful insights. My now 36 year old son and I are "building the dream" and we certainly hope to charm, then challenge and then capture his 3 year old son for this hobby. And perhaps the one year old girl-child too. And maybe in good time a few of said kids companions too. The new LR&H can accomodate about six operators if the Roadmaster wishes it to be so. Or, it can be operated by two when necessary.

Both my own and his Mothers (a tomboy that one, lucky us) Lionel 6-8-6 (Models of the Pennsy S-2 turbines) and their original consists are "on the rails" here.

[Anonymous]

A very interesting column in O Scale Railroading magazine(old issues available free on line, referenced: issues 9,10,11) called Crapola from the Cupola, written by the owner of Pecos River Brass, John C. Smith, details his dealings in the Korean train world. It is a tanqle of death threats, surveillance,espionage double dealing but mostly confusion. Any neophyte entering this world tempted by the siren song of low cost and high profit would be an easy mark. After reading it ,.I had a much better understanding of what went on. Mike Wolf had the advantage of a greater understanding of this culture within a culture by weight of his longer involvement in the market. Lionel lacked same. There but for the grace of God go I, might be an appropriate rejoinder to anyone venturing into this web of easy money.

[Anonymous]

I have read through some of the postings here. Like most people in the hobby, I am interested to see how others are feeling regarding the legal issue. Like most as well, I have my own thoughts. First, both MTH and Lionel make great stuff! Often overlooked is Atlas, KL and Williams. They too make great stuff - just not nealy the same quantity. As for the electronics of TMCC and DCS - for those of you who write about what works or doesn't - please check your wiring! I have run both - independent and together for 2 years with no problems. One guy has written he has hade trouble with a large layout - 48 ft. My layout is about 12ft by 12ft - and I have had no problems whatso ever - even with lashups - including multiple lashups!

As for the legal issue - Lionel did the wrong thing. They now need to pay for it! Timing could not have been worse - in an industry where its hard to find the statistics - I am assuming our hobby is on a decline! My kids don't want to play with trains - they would rather play something electronic. Did any of you read the story in the WSJ today on the entire TOY industry - it's changed 9and maybe forwver!). Sorry fo rht e babble folks - but maybe we can stop talking about the legal mess - especially the negative comments for both compnaies - and focus on the future of the hobby?

One more thing to say - the lack of the toy train makers to accept the internet as a channel is bothersom to me - a buyer. They avoid it - and that will hurt them in the long run. I have always felt that Lionel favors larger distributors/retailers over the little guy - that's why we don't see little train hobby stores anymore. They are bitting their hand - if you know what I mean! OK - One more point - I met Mike from MTH last year - one word - DEVOTION - that man get's it! SOmething tells me Williams and KL get it too! maybe thatt's the ticket!

[eZAK]

There is only one thing to say to all this........

Go with the true leader in the industry...........

Buy more K-line [:D]

[AlanRail]

Conspiracy... bah HUMBUG!

The folks in Lionelville haven't read the Korean deposition transcripts. If they had they would have concluded that the Koreans did it for the money not for Mr. Coyote. Could he have lied? Certainly! Did He? I doubt that he would want to face both theft and perjury charges. How easy for Lionel to investigate the guy's bank accounts for funny deposits. Swiss accounts?

Mr. Coyote did not need to entrap Lionel. They did it on their own. Lionel could have said no.

Alan

[Anonymous]

Alan,

I agree with you, but there are some who want so badly to believe in Lionel that they will eagerly swallow the proverbial Kool-aid and believe this nonsense.

The really sad part is that Lionel does not have to resort to this type of thing in order to be successful or to have their customers believe in them. I hope that the Coil Couplers web sit, along with the recently posted juvenile speculations, is not an official instrument of Lionel. I suspect, but do not know, that it falls more into the genre of "Mr. Wendys".

I posted this recently on the OGR Forum:

"Anyone who has read almost any post that I have written knows that, although I run both DCS and TMCC, I am very biased in favor of MTH. I am a part of a group that does DCS demonstrations for MTH. I took verbal shots at the previous (and deservedly deleted) thread entitled "A Reason to Believe".

If there is a future hope for Lionel, it does not lie in syrupy, poorly written stories on the internet, it lies with some of the people in the field at Lionel.

We set up our floor layout at Cal-Stewart last Friday. DCS response was solid, as normal. TMCC response, which is also always solid, was very bad. Lots of flickering, engines stopping, etc. Those of us working on the layout figured that the temporary electrical was providing a poor groung reference for TMCC, but we had no solution for it.

The local Lionel representative has a reputation for being a very decent, very honorable guy. In very unselfish fashion, he provided me with the info to get TMCC working properly (Running a separate ground from another source to a three-to-two ground plug, and connecting my TMCC transformer to that). We soon had TMCC up and were, in rapid fashion, running both MTH PS-2 and Lionel TMCC products in command together (as usual) on the floor layout.

I am not going to use the Lionel Rep's name, as I do not have his permission to do so. He did not have to assist me (he could have just told me to "pound sand", as the expression goes). I am sure this never entered his mind.

People like this will make me, a die-hard MTH guy, buy Lionel again. "

[nblum]

Even if this semi-fictional essay is meant as disinformation, Lionel is hardly alone in putting out such stuff. There are many in the industry and hobby who believe drinking the Kool-Aid involves believing the allegation that without these MTH materials Korea Brass could not have produced the locomotives in question, and that the design and manufacture of diecast steam locomotives involves anything that could be reasonably construed as a "trade secret." I am of the opinion that this is the underlying message of the postings on the Coil Couplers website. These stories' main purpose is to reinforce the belief amongst Lionel customers that Lionel did nothing wrong and that indeed THEY are the victim in this lawsuit, not MTH, whatever the details of how these events came about. In other words, the stories support Lionel's versions of the facts of the case. What else would one expect?

[Anonymous]

MTH WAS the victim, Just not $41 million worth. If Mike presses for the full amount, he will be greatly disappointed. If this award survives appeal without being reduced by an order of magnitude, than something is radically wrong.
.

[3railguy]

The Coil Couplers tale was written by a Lionel fan for Lionel fans and it has some pun intended. It tells Lionel fans what they want to hear. It is certainly Lionel biased but I don't see it as tasteless. It even admits fault on Lionel's behalf. There may be some decieving thoughts in the story but they are no more decieving than some of MTH's advertising.

I am in agreement that the damage assesement is way too much. MTH's fall in sales had a lot to do with the economy. It also had to do with Lionel installing TMCC in these engines where MTH offered PS-1 boards. TMCC offers much more than PS-1 and TMCC is what people wanted.

Legal or not, MTH has exploited Lionel with reproductions of pre and postwar Lionel designs. This has many Lionel fans upset and they have every right to be. MTH's excuse is they improve the quality and offer something Lionel doesn't. Well, the same goes for Lionel installing TMCC in MTH engines. Lionel gave people something they wanted.

Flame all you want. Nobody can stop us from siding with Lionel. Nobody can stop us from buying Lionel. As long as people buy Lionel, there will always be Lionel.