LET'S TRY TO KEEP THE LIONEL/MTH....

[3railguy]

I have a lot of faith that Lionel will pull throught this. They have done quite well recently with truly outstanding products. Both starter sets and scale equipment. What concerns me is many of the brainchildren who orchestrated this have left the company.

[nblum]

Assuming the bankruptcy court approves these loans and their terms, what this almost certainly means is that the odds of MTH collecting even a penny of their original judgement any time soon is zero. This will enable Lionel to work in the court system to reverse or reduce what was an idiotically large and misconstrued finding in the first place. Good luck to them, and may MTH never see one red cent of this judgement :).

[Buckeye Riveter]

From the Detroit Free Press
Lionel agrees to loans
Model-train firm to borrow $60 million
December 14, 2004 BY TOM BECKER
BLOOMBERG
Lionel LLC, a maker of model trains since 1900, reached agreements to obtain almost $60 million in loans to allow it to remain in business and pay down debt as it tries to reorganize under bankruptcy protection.
The complete story can be seen at:

http://www.freep.com/money/business/lionel14e_20041214.htm

[3railguy]

John, I couldn't agree with you more. The magnitude of the misappropriations were blown way out of proportion in my opinion. Too much focus is being put on the issues.

[Anonymous]

I believe that the timing of this controversy is unfortunate for the whole hobby and industry. For the first time in several decades, a toy train is one of the current holiday season's most popular toys and the industry is busily bickering over this issue rather than focusing on supplying the marketplace. Both MTH and Lionel need to concentrate on promoting toy trains to as wide an audience as possible. The brave new world of toy trains requires suppliers who are committed to reacting to marketplace conditions quickly and who are also capable of producing large quantities of toys that find favor in the marketplace, not just boutique trains for hobbyists.

[CB&Q]

We needed good p.r. to attract new comers to this great hobby alas this won't help. this reminds me of the great LIONEL-AMERICAN FLYER Battle of years gone by. In a way were part to blame for wanting it cheaper& faster and so the less honorable tried to do it not so honestly. Both sides need to take a breath & do whats honest . If you make a good product & afordable it will be bought. I wonder how well MTH would have done in 40's-50's era? food for thought I wonder if 100-years from now if anyone will even care about this topic?????

[3railguy]

QUOTE: Now I am a former Lionel employee... This goes back to when they were producing trains out of Michigan, perhaps even the last years of it..

It is sad that the Michigan plant was shut down. I often reminisce the days of Fundimensions and LTI when trains were made the old fashion way. Magetraction, mechanical reverse, field wound motors, etc. Crude by today's standards but simple, durable, and reliable. Today's trains are fantastic but they can be finicky and are not what I call user friendly when it comes to maintenance and repairs.

[Back2Trains]

PCBs were illegal before PS-1 came out, so our swampland is still safe.

[Anonymous]

Let me offer my thoughts:

The allegations of MTH in this matter are that they've lost profits and that's what they're suing for. I've been told that $40 million is only 80% of what they were asking for, and that this affected 20 locomotives that they lost profits on.

Now I am a former Lionel employee... This goes back to when they were producing trains out of Michigan, perhaps even the last years of it.. I know the kind of production volumes Lionel built high-end locomotives at the time, and there's no way that the profit on even 20 locomotives (also a figure I have a hard time buying) could come close to $40 million.. You might get close if you went by total retail sales, but the manufacturer sees maybe half of that, and profit comes after materials and overhead.

Forget about the stolen locomotive design, nobody is more or less clean than the other, and it's not like we're talking about nuclear secrets or the secret to eternal youth here... These are toys that involve basic mechanisms that have been around for decades. Sure, the electronics are new, but correct me if I'm wrong, that isn't even at issue here.

I have a hard time believing that this is really about anything but agressive business practices... The kind they teach you about in junior high civics when they talk about monopoly busting back in the railroad days... Kinda ironic, I guess, if you think about it.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RI Jim

"Lionel was framed by MTH. Lionel is innocent." Yeah, and I've got some swampland in the Everglades to sell 3Railguy. Bet he'd buy it too.

RI Jim, I'm not interested. That swampland is loaded with PCB's because I deep sixed my MTH PS-1 engines there.

[RI Jim]

"Lionel was framed by MTH. Lionel is innocent." Yeah, and I've got some swampland in the Everglades to sell 3Railguy. Bet he'd buy it too.

[3railguy]

LIONEL WAS FRAMED BY MTH

LIONEL IS INNOCENT!!!

[Anonymous]

[:D]I am 33 yrs old and have been learning the hoppy all over again with my 5yr old who teaches me everyday things I had forgotten or never took notice of. I work as an engineer and my son is a bit disappointed that I am not a train engineer.[:0]
His recent birthday party of 8 boys reinforced the strength of this hobby. Our 8x10' layout caused half of the boys to literally jump for joy when the engines started. [8)] They could not get enough of taking turns running them. My 8x12' layout as a boy got dusty after 5-10 years. Our goal now is to keep it "new" with a portable takedown layout for use Sept - Dec. so every September will be like Christmas for us.
Growing up with Lionel and Marx I have decided to stick with Lionel for all future purchases and the recent court battle enforces that decision.[^] Long live Lionel![;)]
--Steve
Portland CT

[Anonymous]

Neil,

I will let George "Gabby" Hayes be the guiding light in my life from now on. "Gaul Dangit!" (did I spell that correctly?).

(I do wonder how all of this will play out 10 years from now).

In the meantime-Happy Holidays!!!

(I think we both need to run trains more!!!)

[nblum]

I'm not positive but I believe someone told me that if you listen to "After the Gold Rush" and "Long May You Run" daily, there is no question but that one will be Dang Tootin'.

In any case very creative individuals express themselves in ways that don't always impress all of us more conventional (as opposed to command) folk.

I think as long as MTH acts as if it has declared corporate war on its competitors, there will be unconventional literary output on the subject from various quarters. Is it good for the hobby? Probably not. Is it inevitable given the conditions that exist? Probably.

[AntonioFP45]

Neil,

Whether we agree or disagree, you stated your points quite well and to the point.

There's no denying that MTH produces quality products. No denying that Lionel did screw up; no conspiracy theories.

But hopefully after the smoke and dust from the Lionel and the QSI cases have settled, MTH makes a concerted effort to clean up its image and change some of the business practices that the company currently engages in. I sincerely believe that MTH would gain far more customers if it did. As an intelligent businessman, Mr. Wolfe is very likely aware of this. A great starting point is, as mentioned above, the lack of collegiality and interest in common industry standards..... This is one of the issues that stirred up HO modelers in MTH's refusal to cooperate with the NMRA.

From what I've read Mr. Wolf does occasionally read the threads on this forum as well as the MTH related threads that were on the MRR Forum. It would be great if we no longer had guys flaming each other with extremely opposed views and instead readily support the products offered by manufacturers, including Lionel and MTH.

Or, MTH could continue the "status quo" --business as usual and the negative PR and feelings continue to hang in the air like a dark cloud .

[Anonymous]

Neil,

I am not sure to what extent the "press" from either side is influencing anyone. I think most of us really just buy what we want and can afford.

I was not suggesting that actual people were "nutcases" I was pointing out the lack of logic with which some people veiw things in some cases (not you, you are as die hard for Lionel as I am for MTH-we are both already lost...).

I was suggesting that those who write under fictitious names might be operating from the lunatic fringe. Z.W. Messengetti, for example, has spent a lot of time and effort in writing "Dawn" and "A Crescent Moon", time which would have been much better spent in therapy...

I am also wondering about Clyde Coil.

I had no idea that I was "Dang Tootin" until I read that in one of his columns (I suppose he was addressing everyone in his audience when he stated "Yer dang tootin!"). I am still trying to figure out how to be "Dang Tootin".

I will work on it. I will make it a personal goal to become "Dang Tootin" in every aspect of my life from now on.

Lionel can do much better than this-like letting you, some of their other good people, and their products speak for themselves.

[nblum]

I feel better almost all the time :). Thanks for asking.

[maddognc]

Feel better Neil?

[nblum]

Indeed, most people who feel negatively about MTH did so long before the misguided and trumped up lawsuit.

They reacted to MTH's misleading and derogatory advertising of the 1990s, the attempts to sabotage Atlas and K-Line's initial introductions of scale locomotives using information concerning those releases to come to market with exactly the same diesel in exactly the same road names at the same time.

Those who see MTH as a largely malign influence on the industry and hobby at this point note the total lack of collegiality and interest in common industry standards that would serve both the manufacturers and the consumers.

The final touch is the litigious approach to Lionel's coming out with scale locomotives that effectively competed with their own product and their attempt to bulldoze DCC manufacturers. Turn about isn't fair play in the MTH scheme of things. This litigious approach has intimidated some DCC manufacturers into not incorporating new features in their products. It has created a similar climate of animosity and loathing in the HO community that mirrors what MTH has created in the O gauge three rail community.

No amount of self-righteous nonsense PR about "stolen plans," which is transparently exaggerated and misleading will convince people that MTH is a positive influence in the hobby at this point. No volume of press releases will convince people in the industry that MTH has any claim to being the wronged party in its campaign of multiple attempts to win in court what it will never win in the marketplace. Enjoy their products by all means if one wishes, but claiming that those who do not wi***o buy their products because they are a bad actor in the industry are some sort of nutcases just doesn't jibe with history and the facts on the ground.

[Anonymous]

Neil is correct.

Its not just the lawsuit. There are many influences...

The corporate espionage allegedly committed by Lionel and its minions, if true, is apalling (so far, the court systems, both in this country and Korea, support that the espionage did take place-I do not pretend to know enough to predict what the eventual outcome will be).

The interesting logic of those individuals who post that MTH should be boycotted for having copied old Lionel designs (designs whose patents have long since expired and fallen into the public domain), yet revere Williams for doing a wonderful job reproducing a great deal of Lionel's postwar repertoire (this is not a dig at Williams-he manufactures quality products-just to draw a contrast of how some view Williams is vs. MTH for doing essentially the same thing).

Individuals who speak of how terrible MTH PS1 is, while extolling the virtues of QSI, who designed it. (not a shot at QSI either, they make good quality products).

The juvenile (or perhaps senile) ramblings of the Z.W. Messengetti's of the world, attempting to float bizarre conspiracy theories in a desparate attempt to vindicate Lionel, at least in their own minds. If Lionel is innocent, they will need no such vindication, and certainly not in such a ludicrous manner.


Even with all of this nonsense to influence me, I will not be prevented from occasionally purchasing a Lionel product if I choose to do so. :)

In the meantime, most of my train $$ will go to MTH.


People preach that MTH is somehow evil for sueing (and apparently winning) in the case against Lionel where, so far, (according to the courts) MTH appears to be the wronged party.

Interesting logic.

[nblum]

It's not just the lawsuit that's influencing people, IMO.

[RI Jim]

I vote with my wallet too and I buy what I like, regardless of manufacturer. Not buying certain trains because of a lawsuit is nonsense IMHO.

[Anonymous]

Even if Lionel did go out of business as a result of the law suit, I will still continue to "vote with my wallet".

MTH will continue to get my business!!! I want the best operating, best sounding (my opinion) trains for my $$:



MTH Premier Big Boy at AGHRS.

[Anonymous]

I understand that restitution must be made from stolen ideas and technology. Altho, I must make this statement, and correct me if I am wrong...

Wasn't Lionel trains the mfg co. that made it possible for this company to exist. Wasn't it Lionel that built up the customer base!! I still agree with a restitution but c'mon!!! I guess there are no little elements that Lionel has created over the years, from trains, to tech, to text, to PR, to organizational practices, to even marketing, that this company has utalized.

If this company puts Lionel out of business then I will see to it I never give them one single cent for aiding in the destruction of my company (ya - I keep it alive with my purchase just like everyone else). And ya know what? Other company... the consumer controls your fate as well!!!

[Anonymous]

Not to long ago a gentleman was on the O-gauge forum claiming he was planning on bringing a scale 4-4-0 to market. An american company, scale size, and without TMCC or sound. The asking price was to be around a 1000.00. The responses basicly ran the course of 1000.00 is to steep. I can't remember if it was going to be america made or not. But people like to pay lip service but when it comes right down to it, we vote with our wallet. And the voting seems to be, give me scale, detail, quality, and give it to me at a cheap price.
Bill

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

I hate to say this guys, but it may be television that has done this to our society. All of that advertising that pushes us to consume can't be a good thing, unless you are getting paid to produce it.

The trouble is not with the device itself, the device is a useful tool like any you might find in your workshop. No, the trouble is with the content of it's messages. Think about it!!! It is both seductive and insidious.

Look at the history of television, and the history of the toy train industry. Rewind 50 years and compare lifestyles in our society.

No wonder we like to escape back to the 50's.

Sorry, Elliot, but I can't put the blame for the state our nation is in on television. It's all of us that are to blame. We elected the politicians; we bought the products, we buy into the idea that material wealth is an OK thing.

I believe it was Antonio who wrote about why outsourcing is so prevalent. His points are right on. From a business owner's perpective, the costs are lower going to overseas labor. Charge the same price here & you make a killing.

The thought that the US will slide back into a 3rd world country doesn't enter the equation; all that matters is the profit now.

In a way, it's short term thinking that's hurting the country. But it's not television's fault that the people making the decisions lack vision.

Tony

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dbburr

QUOTE: Originally posted by pmberman

MTH is a deperate company. They filed suite because they could not overtake Lionel through normal business competition. Their products are all me-too's. They have no brand heritage and they offer no differentiation over Lionel. Give it up MTH.

Even though I'm against the MTH vs. QSI litigation action, we have to look at reality here. I have seen MTH O scale products up close. Their products are decent and well built and the customer support is not an illusion.

QUOTE: The Lionel brand is too strong and has too much history for measly MTH to ever conquer.

----Sorry but this statement just doesn't "fly". Depending on how legal and financial proceedings turn out, MTH or another company can "buyout" or consolidate with a company like Lionel. I hope this doesn't happen, and while it's unlikely it is possible. MTH's "measley" size is irrelevant. The final outcome depends on business and court decisions. The legal and business arenas today are now run by ambitious tigers with big claws! So outcomes often cannot be predicted until the final moments. A realistic scenario would be that MTH in the future could be in a position where it could afford to "buyout" Lionel. If Lionel's owner's are given a large enough offer, do you think that they would say no? In today's business environment, corporate rivalry is put aside when it comes to large scale transactions.

Many of us in the HO world were shocked when Athearn was bought out by Horizon. Sad to say but the reality is that corporate loyalty to customers today depends on the bottom line.

Another example: Who would've had thought that Kmart would have bought out Sears? Years back the very notion of this would have been laughed at.

Peace and High Greens!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pmberman

MTH is a deperate company. They filed suite because they could not overtake Lionel through normal business competition. Their products are all me-too's. They have no brand heritage and they offer no differentiation over Lionel. The Lionel brand is too strong and has too much history for measly MTH to ever conquer. Give it up MTH.