LET'S TRY TO KEEP THE LIONEL/MTH....

[Big_Boy_4005]

I hate to say this guys, but it may be television that has done this to our society. All of that advertising that pushes us to consume can't be a good thing, unless you are getting paid to produce it.

The trouble is not with the device itself, the device is a useful tool like any you might find in your workshop. No, the trouble is with the content of it's messages. Think about it!!! It is both seductive and insidious.

Look at the history of television, and the history of the toy train industry. Rewind 50 years and compare lifestyles in our society.

No wonder we like to escape back to the 50's.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ogaugeoverlord

Most people simply are not willing to pay a premium for something just because it is made in America. Whether it is toasters, boots, or electric trains. So if we blame anyone, it needs to be labor, management, and John Q. Public. In short, all of us.

Can't get any plainer than that! We, as a nation are at fault: White, Black, Brown, Mixed, Conservative, Moderate, Liberal, Married, Single, Retired, Working.....................it's us!

We've become a society where we're eager to stick our heads in the sand and then point fingers at others for our economic situaion.

[Anonymous]

If you want US built trains, Weaver makes a good product that is priced competitively with the big imports (including Lionel),.However, as BigBoy4005 pointed out, we no longer have a manufacturing economy here - for instance, we complain about gas prices without realizing that there are no new refineries being built; we cannot make more gasoline faster regardless of how much crude oil is in-house. Steel, chemicals, even wood in some cases, are in the same categories - cheaper to import from a long way off then to try to make here. Liability issues, labor problems, and environmental concerns make creating new industry almost impossible; no business wants to fight all of this so the work just goes overseas. And, price points have a huge impact on it.. Lets be real honest, we are all happier to spend a hypothetical 750.00 on an imported engine that would have cost us 1,750. 00 had it been built here. K-Line's latest stuff is the best example of this.

[Bob Keller]

Most people simply are not willing to pay a premium for something just because it is made in America. Whether it is toasters, boots, or electric trains. So if we blame anyone, it needs to be labor, management, and John Q. Public. In short, all of us.

http://howtobuyamerican.com/

So why don't we give this issue a rest?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bennie Zimmer

You can thank the greedy and irresponsible unions for all of the manufacturing jobs going overseas.

I would like to boycott everything made in Red China, but It's hard to do. I read today that 70% of everything Walmart sells is made in Red China. They currently have 17 billion dollars of Red Chinese inventory on hand.[:(!]

[Anonymous]

MTH is a deperate company. They filed suite because they could not overtake Lionel through normal business competition. Their products are all me-too's. They have no brand heritage and they offer no differentiation over Lionel. The Lionel brand is too strong and has too much history for measly MTH to ever conquer. Give it up MTH.

[AntonioFP45]

John, Ben

Relax, you're both PARTIALLY right!

Unions were established due to abuses by employers in the past dating back the robber baron period. I was a union steward when I worked for a transit company, however, I agree that there are times when unions use the same, shrewd bargaining tactics as the corporations that they are negotiating with. This winds up creating even more hostile work environments. Just examine a typical Class 1 railroad today. Negative feelings exist on both sides. The corporate or agency executives are by no means innocent, but their attitude is that they run the company and will do what they can to increase profits or reduce labor costs and unfortunately will no longer see the human issues, just the expense/profit issues. [V]

Look at a typical toy or electronics manufacturer of the 1980s. To attract good employees, the employer (usually) had to provide a 40 hour work week, offer health care benefits, sick time and/or vacation benefits. Another big factor: Liability insurance, as the lawsuit abuses began to escalate in that time period. And don't forget that the manufacturing equipment had to be serviced and maintained.

Fast forward to the 1990s. The employer is offered an opportunity to outsource the bulk of his production to China. So he gets to cut his labor force by 3/4 its former size, he no longer has to spend thousands of dollars in machine servicing & repair costs, his health care costs for employees "shrinks" greatly, the products are as good or even better in quality, the amount of Workman's Compenstaion cases drop like lead, and his profit margin: Climbs through the roof!

So for him, this is great! His company is viable and profits are rolling in. For the workers? They're hammered, of course and for the ones that are not skilled wind up working for minimum wage at places like Wal-Mart. The only silver lining out of this is that these workers pu***heir kids to get a good education and / or learn a trade that will always be in demand.

We all have to remember that American democracy, as it was in the past, is gone forever, sad to say. So guys, it's not worth flaming each other over this issue. We're stuck with the society that we have.

Realistically, a democrat or republican in the White House is not going to make a big difference as far as outsourcing. If the tax break were lifted from these companies that are outsourcing to other nations, what would happen? Business as usual, but the costs are just passed on to the consumer..............which is us.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bennie Zimmer

You can thank the greedy and irresponsible unions for all of the manufacturing jobs going overseas.

I would like to boycott everything made in Red China, but It's hard to do. I read today that 70% of everything Walmart sells is made in Red China. They currently have 17 billion dollars of Red Chinese inventory on hand.[:(!]

you are full of... VOTE UNION TO RESTORE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY

[Anonymous]

You can thank the greedy and irresponsible unions for all of the manufacturing jobs going overseas.

I would like to boycott everything made in Red China, but It's hard to do. I read today that 70% of everything Walmart sells is made in Red China. They currently have 17 billion dollars of Red Chinese inventory on hand.[:(!]

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'm afraid it is merely wishful thinking to believe that any of the major manufacturers will return production to the US. These are businessmen in charge, not train lovers. No matter what happens, their profit margines will not be allowed to fall. It has always been true that you get what you pay for. The question is, are you willing to pay that much?

To take this foreign manufacturering question one step further, would you be willing to take a pay cut to keep your job? Many Americans are faced with this question every day. Some are not asked, but rather told that that is what will happen, no choice.

We no longer have a manufacturing economy in this country. As hard to believe as it is, this is a service economy. Just think about the kinds of jobs that can be outsourced, and those that can't.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tonkasrme

THERE IS A LOT A PRO AND CON HERE, BUT MAKING THE TRAINS HERE INSTEAD OF CHINA WOULD EMPLOYE PEOPLE HERE.NOT THERE.THAT'S THE TROUBLE ,ALL THE BIG CORPORATION TAKE EVERYTHING OVERSEAS TO MAKE THE BIG PROFIT WE SHOULD BE BOYCOTTING COMPANIES LIKE THESE AND GO BACK TO BUYING AMERICAN PRODUCTS MADE HERE.MY POINT IS THEY WANT TO TAKE OUR MONEY , BUT NO JOBS HERE TO BUY THIS STUFF .HOW CAN I FEEL SORRY FOR EITHER ONE WHEN IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY AND NOT THE HOBBIEST.

Hello Tonka,

Many agree with your views as do I, however, the unfortuante flip side of this coin is that prices on products would rise sharply due to higher labor costs. Sadly, even more companies are farming the work out overseas.

As long as consumers continue to demand low cost products and corporate profit margins are top priority, this trend will continue.

[Blueberryhill RR]

QUOTE: Originally posted by route1rails

It's unfortunate that our hobby has been caught up in this. But if past events are any indication of the future, the Lionel name will continue. I'd say the greatest threat to our hobby is our age group continuing to age, our basements filling with treasures to the point of no room and our kids /grandkids interest in instant satisfaction toys. Maybe Lionel's Polar Express set and the movie are coming out at just the right time, for many reasons.

Tom

I agree. My grandson would rather play with his Play Station. Kids seem to be interested only in action figures and violence.

[Anonymous]

Lionel sure got burned by the asians. With the Dollar dropping like a rock, Michigan would look real good except Lionel sold their plant contents for pennies on the dollar. They should've hung onto that stuff. Now, they probably couldn't take the molds THEY OWN out of China.

[AlanRail]

TONKA

So you're the one boycotting products made overseas!
I was wondering who that was; Gotta tell you that most if not all of the appliances you use from your microwave oven to your TV are made overseas.

So you dont cook or watch TV too. Or are you just down on MTH and Lionel

Alan

next time use a larger font in your threads.

[Anonymous]

THERE IS A LOT A PRO AND CON HERE, BUT MAKING THE TRAINS HERE INSTEAD OF CHINA WOULD EMPLOYE PEOPLE HERE.NOT THERE.THAT'S THE TROUBLE ,ALL THE BIG CORPORATION TAKE EVERYTHING OVERSEAS TO MAKE THE BIG PROFIT WE SHOULD BE BOYCOTTING COMPANIES LIKE THESE AND GO BACK TO BUYING AMERICAN PRODUCTS MADE HERE.MY POINT IS THEY WANT TO TAKE OUR MONEY , BUT NO JOBS HERE TO BUY THIS STUFF .HOW CAN I FEEL SORRY FOR EITHER ONE WHEN IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY AND NOT THE HOBBIEST.

[AlanRail]

NEIL

Unless Mr. Coyote spills his lawyers can never say which it is; fee or contingency; but looking at the amount of the claim it sure looks like a contingency -type case; Most IP cases are because of the rather large awards for IP infringement issues.

Also it could be a blend of both; a fat fee in the beginning followed by a lower percentage too. So who knows for sure unless MTH says.

Alan

[nblum]

Someone, I forget who :), stated that the MTH attorneys took the case not on contingency but on a fee for service basis.

[Anonymous]

Believe it or not, I DO buy MTH trains. Their Rugged Rails NYC caboose gives you a nice looking car for the price Lionel gets for an 027 piece of junk from warmed over postwar tooling and their INNOVATIVE subway trains are truly expanding the 3-rail market. The court judgment, however is INSANE.

[AlanRail]

John

No one was implying that you should not support Lionel in this matter; either with your pocketbook or your heart. Or that there aren't people on both sides spinining tales until were all dizzy.

The first refuge of a scoundrel is patriotism ( waive the flag) the second is conspiracy ( they are all out to get me). Here no one has yet to raise the flag and claim MTH is unpatriotic ( although it has come close) so instead they are going for the conspiracy theory.

Lionel has said time and time again that its lawyer's approach was faulty. So then maybe they forgot to look for the Korean-MTH connection. Do you think?

As Paul Simon once wrote: " A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.." Lionel people will continue to give Lionel the benefit of the doubt, or create doubt whenever necessary. I think this story is another spin and here it has us talking on that.

I'll continue to buy Lionel too and wait an see if MTH ever gets a dime. I think the real losers here are MTH's attorneys who took the case on contingency. Imagine; 1/3 of nothing won't pay the rent.


Alan

[3railguy]

The Coil Couplers tale was written by a Lionel fan for Lionel fans and it has some pun intended. It tells Lionel fans what they want to hear. It is certainly Lionel biased but I don't see it as tasteless. It even admits fault on Lionel's behalf. There may be some decieving thoughts in the story but they are no more decieving than some of MTH's advertising.

I am in agreement that the damage assesement is way too much. MTH's fall in sales had a lot to do with the economy. It also had to do with Lionel installing TMCC in these engines where MTH offered PS-1 boards. TMCC offers much more than PS-1 and TMCC is what people wanted.

Legal or not, MTH has exploited Lionel with reproductions of pre and postwar Lionel designs. This has many Lionel fans upset and they have every right to be. MTH's excuse is they improve the quality and offer something Lionel doesn't. Well, the same goes for Lionel installing TMCC in MTH engines. Lionel gave people something they wanted.

Flame all you want. Nobody can stop us from siding with Lionel. Nobody can stop us from buying Lionel. As long as people buy Lionel, there will always be Lionel.

[Anonymous]

MTH WAS the victim, Just not $41 million worth. If Mike presses for the full amount, he will be greatly disappointed. If this award survives appeal without being reduced by an order of magnitude, than something is radically wrong.
.

[nblum]

Even if this semi-fictional essay is meant as disinformation, Lionel is hardly alone in putting out such stuff. There are many in the industry and hobby who believe drinking the Kool-Aid involves believing the allegation that without these MTH materials Korea Brass could not have produced the locomotives in question, and that the design and manufacture of diecast steam locomotives involves anything that could be reasonably construed as a "trade secret." I am of the opinion that this is the underlying message of the postings on the Coil Couplers website. These stories' main purpose is to reinforce the belief amongst Lionel customers that Lionel did nothing wrong and that indeed THEY are the victim in this lawsuit, not MTH, whatever the details of how these events came about. In other words, the stories support Lionel's versions of the facts of the case. What else would one expect?

[Anonymous]

Alan,

I agree with you, but there are some who want so badly to believe in Lionel that they will eagerly swallow the proverbial Kool-aid and believe this nonsense.

The really sad part is that Lionel does not have to resort to this type of thing in order to be successful or to have their customers believe in them. I hope that the Coil Couplers web sit, along with the recently posted juvenile speculations, is not an official instrument of Lionel. I suspect, but do not know, that it falls more into the genre of "Mr. Wendys".

I posted this recently on the OGR Forum:

"Anyone who has read almost any post that I have written knows that, although I run both DCS and TMCC, I am very biased in favor of MTH. I am a part of a group that does DCS demonstrations for MTH. I took verbal shots at the previous (and deservedly deleted) thread entitled "A Reason to Believe".

If there is a future hope for Lionel, it does not lie in syrupy, poorly written stories on the internet, it lies with some of the people in the field at Lionel.

We set up our floor layout at Cal-Stewart last Friday. DCS response was solid, as normal. TMCC response, which is also always solid, was very bad. Lots of flickering, engines stopping, etc. Those of us working on the layout figured that the temporary electrical was providing a poor groung reference for TMCC, but we had no solution for it.

The local Lionel representative has a reputation for being a very decent, very honorable guy. In very unselfish fashion, he provided me with the info to get TMCC working properly (Running a separate ground from another source to a three-to-two ground plug, and connecting my TMCC transformer to that). We soon had TMCC up and were, in rapid fashion, running both MTH PS-2 and Lionel TMCC products in command together (as usual) on the floor layout.

I am not going to use the Lionel Rep's name, as I do not have his permission to do so. He did not have to assist me (he could have just told me to "pound sand", as the expression goes). I am sure this never entered his mind.

People like this will make me, a die-hard MTH guy, buy Lionel again. "

[AlanRail]

Conspiracy... bah HUMBUG!

The folks in Lionelville haven't read the Korean deposition transcripts. If they had they would have concluded that the Koreans did it for the money not for Mr. Coyote. Could he have lied? Certainly! Did He? I doubt that he would want to face both theft and perjury charges. How easy for Lionel to investigate the guy's bank accounts for funny deposits. Swiss accounts?

Mr. Coyote did not need to entrap Lionel. They did it on their own. Lionel could have said no.

Alan

[eZAK]

There is only one thing to say to all this........

Go with the true leader in the industry...........

Buy more K-line [:D]

[Anonymous]

I have read through some of the postings here. Like most people in the hobby, I am interested to see how others are feeling regarding the legal issue. Like most as well, I have my own thoughts. First, both MTH and Lionel make great stuff! Often overlooked is Atlas, KL and Williams. They too make great stuff - just not nealy the same quantity. As for the electronics of TMCC and DCS - for those of you who write about what works or doesn't - please check your wiring! I have run both - independent and together for 2 years with no problems. One guy has written he has hade trouble with a large layout - 48 ft. My layout is about 12ft by 12ft - and I have had no problems whatso ever - even with lashups - including multiple lashups!

As for the legal issue - Lionel did the wrong thing. They now need to pay for it! Timing could not have been worse - in an industry where its hard to find the statistics - I am assuming our hobby is on a decline! My kids don't want to play with trains - they would rather play something electronic. Did any of you read the story in the WSJ today on the entire TOY industry - it's changed 9and maybe forwver!). Sorry fo rht e babble folks - but maybe we can stop talking about the legal mess - especially the negative comments for both compnaies - and focus on the future of the hobby?

One more thing to say - the lack of the toy train makers to accept the internet as a channel is bothersom to me - a buyer. They avoid it - and that will hurt them in the long run. I have always felt that Lionel favors larger distributors/retailers over the little guy - that's why we don't see little train hobby stores anymore. They are bitting their hand - if you know what I mean! OK - One more point - I met Mike from MTH last year - one word - DEVOTION - that man get's it! SOmething tells me Williams and KL get it too! maybe thatt's the ticket!

[Anonymous]

A very interesting column in O Scale Railroading magazine(old issues available free on line, referenced: issues 9,10,11) called Crapola from the Cupola, written by the owner of Pecos River Brass, John C. Smith, details his dealings in the Korean train world. It is a tanqle of death threats, surveillance,espionage double dealing but mostly confusion. Any neophyte entering this world tempted by the siren song of low cost and high profit would be an easy mark. After reading it ,.I had a much better understanding of what went on. Mike Wolf had the advantage of a greater understanding of this culture within a culture by weight of his longer involvement in the market. Lionel lacked same. There but for the grace of God go I, might be an appropriate rejoinder to anyone venturing into this web of easy money.

[Anonymous]

No flames from here plasticlizard.
You wrote some really thoughtful insights. My now 36 year old son and I are "building the dream" and we certainly hope to charm, then challenge and then capture his 3 year old son for this hobby. And perhaps the one year old girl-child too. And maybe in good time a few of said kids companions too. The new LR&H can accomodate about six operators if the Roadmaster wishes it to be so. Or, it can be operated by two when necessary.

Both my own and his Mothers (a tomboy that one, lucky us) Lionel 6-8-6 (Models of the Pennsy S-2 turbines) and their original consists are "on the rails" here.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

New Hi Rail Times!!! Go To www.coilcouplers.com

That was very creative the way the story was laid out. I have to admit though, I find the conspiracy theory in the story hard to believe (that Lionel was set up by Mr. "Coyote"). Basically a couple of guys messed up royally and Lionel got hammered as a result.

I do hope that Lionel does pull through, just as it did years back when it filed bankruptcy then.

[Anonymous]

New Hi Rail Times!!! Go To www.coilcouplers.com