Lionel to appeal

[garyseven]

What disturbs me more than the verdict, payout or whatever the future may bring is that Lionel has remained silent - "unavailable for comment." No spokesman, no lead attorney, no marketing director, not even an unnamed executve talking on background... this tells me there is currently an absence of directional leadership at the top of Lionel. No one to rally us - the loyal customer base. These are critical hours for damage control. Look at all the emotional speculation it has caused here... Furthermore it is a look inside what is currently going on inside Lionel tonight as you read this. My guess - serious confusion.
That, my friends, should distrub you too.

But, as they say, tomarrow is another day.

[Anonymous]

You know, back in the 1800's, some railroads did some things....

[darth9x9]

I am certainly no fan of MTH (with the QSI law suit and all) but I did work for Mike Wolf part time while attending UMBC in the late 80’s. So I am familiar with the internal workings of MTH. MTH spent some serious R&D on a locomotive (and I can’t remember the model right now) and then they finally released it. Less than three months later, Lionel released the exact same loco. It was a clear case of corporate espionage. I am really surprised that Lionel thought they could get away with it. What is really interesting is that there is still a container full of those Lionel locos that haven’t been accounted for……

[dougdagrump]

Personally I like both of their products but unfortunately both are overpriced and customer service doesn't measure up. If the awards stand guess what, prices will more than likely go up for both of them. Lionel to pay the the award and MTH to pad the profits.
Just call me cynical ! [|(]

[daan]

Another thing, apart from the fact that no company should steal ideas from another, why didn't MTH protect their blueprints from getting stolen? I mean, if they are on a company computer someone must have broken in and copy the files without MTH knowing it. To get behind a company computer, someone from MTH must have accepted an amount of money to copy the stuff, or someone from Lionel must have cleaned their wastebaskets and found a drawing.
If it can cost you 40 million if the drawings get stolen, you should protect them. The fact that another company can build an engine with your drawings is the proof that you didn't protect things too well.
Apart from that MTH has got rights from Lionel to reproduce their postwar, if they lawsuit Lionel because of lost money, they also should tell the judges that they also earn a lot of money because of Lionel's postwar copies.
Stealing is no good, but 40 million because some are so stupid to leave drawings up in the open..???

[Anonymous]

It the future to save both time and thinking lets agree to add another abbreviation:

How about BFGLC= BIG FAT GREEDY LAWYER CONSPIRACY! because in every lawsuit known to man or woman there is a BFGLC, you know where the lawyers on both sides have agreed to screw everyone either directly or indirectly connected with the lawsuit out of every last cent from the beginning of the earth to the end of time.

When a lawsuit is filed in court it is a BFGLC that brings it; the client has nothing whatsoever to do with bringing it either they are just there so we can put a name on the lawsuit; And as to the defendant, we make them do the bad act so we can charge huge fees to defend them. Here Lionel's lawyers saw an opportunity to make huge fees and told LIONEL to wink and nod when the these drawings appeared out of nowhere within a few days of giving them the order to make competeing MTH engines. (Wink! Nod!) I suspect that both MTH's and LIONEL's lawyers met years before the matter was filed at the BAR.

Recall the BAR we lawyers talk about, well here's the truth about it I'll share the secret with you my forum friends: In advance, ALL the lawyers of the world meet a few times a year. We all sit together in a BAR and we decide who will be sued and for what amount; this just saves time. In addition, both the judge and jury are all bought off as part of the BFGLC; You might know this having ever sat on a Jury that the lawyers, as part of a BFGLC, have bribed you to decide their way.. What you did not know is that the Judge gets into a bidding war with both sides; and in this matter MTH paid the judge more money.

The trial is a sham because the outcome is known in advance and decided as part of the BFGLC. But for the sake of the Media we go through the Motions.
When an award is awarded it is, you guessed it, all part of a BFGLC.

I hope this saves time for all of you in the future so you don't need to ever think about these confusing legal matters that arise in this forum; just assume the above took place and use BFGLC to simply and easily describe the situation and then with minimum thought expended on your part, you can get back to trains or whatever.

Always happy to oblige.
Alan

[daan]

Hey Alan, that's not a big advertisement for your job is it?
Brave to talk like that when you have a job in the scene..

[Anonymous]

All I want to do is drink a beer and run trains!!!!,,,,,And listen to some good music! I'm not gonna' let them bad ole' lawers ruin my fun.
If Lionel goes away and MTH and all the others are still around,,,,,,,Life still is good!!!

[Anonymous]

does vegas have the odds in yet?...
who will raise prices first. [X-)]
MTH or Lionel? [%-)]

who cares? [:(]

it all smell of sour grapes and dirty pool to me [V]

howsa' bout making trains at a reasonable cost...[sigh]

[ChiefEagles]

Alan, you finally admitted you screw widows and orphans out of their inheritance. Told you I'd let you slide last night. [:D] I think the lawyer conspiracy is nuts. I hope no one believes that. Alan, wait until they get in a "bind" and the lawyer is their best friend then. [;)]

[Anonymous]

Brian W:

For me, the reason I said I would switch to HO if Lionel were to become owned by MTH has to do with MTH's behavior regarding DCC and patenting the technologies others have developed as part of DCS. There are a large number of people who have spent years developing DCC and none of them patented any of their work, in the spirit of collaboration & doing what's best for the hobby. Along comes MTH and they use that body of work & then patent it? That just ain't right.

You can say that stealing MTH's design isn't right either, and you'd be right. According to the jury, Lionel knowingly used plans that were stolen and so profited. Lionel's going to have to pay something back to MTH.

But you want to talk about greed? Patenting something you didn't invent and then forcing the people who did invent it to pay you royalties for [b]their own work]/b] takes a lot of gall.

And then again, Mike Wolff's comments about buying what is essentially a cultural icon & dissolving it for his profit turn me off. I've never met the man, but so far I've found little in him to like.

Tony

[cnw1995]

It does look like something illegal occured in Korea. This is a big hit though. I remember CTT mentioning our part of the hobby market to be estimated at about $90 million - I wonder what will happen to Lionel. I am concerned that something like this will severely impact the benefits we've reaped as hobbyists from competition.

[Anonymous]

Who cares.......The topic is getting very old.
What the hell is use for talking about it.
Don't anyone know that we modelers are going to pay deep out of our own pockets for this now, so stop crying,it'e only going to get worse!
BNSFfan.

[FJ and G]

I wonder if the price on the Acela will now go from $2k to $4K?

Or, will Lionel Christmas bonuses get ax'd?

[FJ and G]

I discussed the outcome of The Great lawsuit of the century with BB the Beagle last night and she just yawned.

She's much more interested in the world of meat.

As matter of fact, I've been timing her wind sprints to various types of meat and set up a course in the backyard, that is 15 yards long.

At the start line, I give BB a sniff of meat so she knows what to expect. Following this, tail rotates, tongue extends and drool.

Then, I toss the meat so that it hits the back gate and drops in the precise location.

Speeds clocked thus far by category of meat:

Pork: 5 seconds
Chicken: 6 seconds
Hamburger: 6 seconds
Fish (Albacore placed inside broken tennis ball): 7 seconds

Dave Vergun

[Jim Duda]

Finally! Some useful, empirical "evidence"...!

Try a dish of Tofu...

[Anonymous]

If the judge does not lower the judgement then I see big problems for Lionel. The payments alone could
send Lionel into a spiral. Mike's comments about the diminished business and past layoffs probably were
self-inflicted by expanding too fast.

[jonadel]

David--

LOL about the timing of the meats and BB the Beagle. I recently heard a radio interview with the president of the Iowa Beef Cattlemen and the reporter asked him what was served at his house on a regular basis, his reply was "if it flies or swims, we don't eat it". You can really appreciate that if you been brought up on corn fed beef.

Time to go downstairs and play.

Jon

[Anonymous]

After reading all this and the news, I've decided I'm not going to worry about the future of the hobby.... but I am going to get a Williams catalog and start planning my purchases there!

[daan]

Thus, when heading this way, another model railway icon will turn off their lights, another thousand people loose their jobs and we have less choice in our hobby shops and if we buy something we pay much more..
We are the customers here, and as I'm concerned I demand competition. If MTH nails Lionel (and probably buys the name afterwards) we have a competitor and an icon less in our train world and we don't want that.
If we are the ones MTH wants to sell his trains to, do we have to take things like this for granted? Or can we make a voice against this neverending-lawsuiting-eachother-thing
which goes on and on and on in the states?
MTH has to take effort to please their customers, otherwise they too can pack their bags, even if there's 40.7 million in it, and those customers are, as far as I have read, not happy with the verdict. Copying should be punished, but 40.7 million is also theft and should be punished as well!!!
Don't think that no-one can change anything here, we are their customers, in the end we are the ones who rule!

That's my final reply to this.
Daan.

[okiechoochoo]

Gee, I don't know what to say. I know for sure I will never buy anything from Mike Wolf. But then, I never have bought any MTH or RK. Come to think of it, I never have bought any modern Lionel that I kept. I buy that old Lionel postwar and new Williams. I guess I don't much care what happens with this settlement thing. That's the beauty of staying low tech and traditional

[wallyworld]

The news is anti-climatic in that it's a natural course of affairs in the legal system to request another round of proceedings. A real front page headline worth at least several columns would have been if they did not appeal the verdict. One I would have preferred to read was some positive news such as progress between all the parties on compatibility issues. All of this really tarnishes the squeaky clean face of the industry with a fairly good sized shiner.
K-Line, Williams et al not being in the midst of this dust up, as indirect beneficaries as some of these posts attest, can't help but stand aside with some amount of satisfaction from the two big boys exchanging legal blows.

[FJ and G]

The Lawsuit (I guess I can capitalize this because it is the mother of all toy train lawsuits--at least until the UP lawsuit comes up) is plastered all over the front page of today's Washington Post business section (and even jumps inside), with huge picture of Mike Wolf and a steam engine pumping out a high volume of smoke.

Anyway, Mike makes the case that the case is more than just winning. He states: ...the damage was already done. Between 2000 and 2003 sales fell by $20 million [as result of Lionel's theft], triggering the layoff of about 50 MTH employees. We could not pay our bills.

It is no small thing for one person to lose his job, but 50 people?

Wolf acknowledged in the article that "People are very upset about this." [as evidenced from some of the replies to this post with people's panties in a wad--my comment]. Mike continued: "When it comes to Lionel & MTH, it's like Democrats and Republicans. People stand by their manufacturer."

Interestingly, the editor of CTT is also interviewed (Neil B) in the article, giving mostly background info that you are all aware of.

Another interesting tidbit is that in the article, Mike managed to do some advertising, with descripitons of some of the toy trains and their prices.

While many if not most of you look at The Lawsuit as having a negative impact; on the bright side, people are now aware that Lionel still exists and that a company called MTH also makes really cool trains. Without The Lawsuit, how could toy trains ever have made it BIG on the TOP of the front page of the Washington Post as well as in other newspapers?

[FJ and G]

Rich on the other forum just closed the big Lawsuit thread. I see this one is still open.

[MartyE]

Although I agree that if Lionel did use MTH's design they should be punished but...I highly doubt that the 50 employees and downturn in their profit had to due with the issue. Just my feelings.

[Anonymous]

Yes, Richie Melvin closed the lawsuit thread. Did you read the pompus and condescending remarks he made? OGR=[censored]

[spodwo]

Hmm - I think it should have been left open there as well. Biggest news since ??? Lionel closed shop in Michigan.

[FJ and G]

spodwo,

agree 100% that it should have been left open. People need to discuss this.

BTW, CTT has gotten some really really GREAT publicity in the Washington Post, w/Neil speaking on background. You'd think that CTT is the only toy train mag. The folks at the other mag should also be conducting interviews.

Dave Vergun

[nblum]

I agree this is potentially the biggest story in the last 20 years or so of three rail train history. MTH and its lawyers convinced a jury that what was standard operating procedure in Korea for many years was in fact a specific attempt by Lionel to undermine their business. The jury obviously didn't hear or care that MTH has done quite similar stuff themselves in producing products of the same design and road name as their competitors using inside information (Atlas and K-Line's first locos and scale locos a few years back). Whether that information was obtained by legal or illegal means we will never know because neither Atlas nor K-Line felt there were grounds for legal action or chose to forego spending the money on that approach.

Now we have the claim that MTH's financial reverses of the late 1990s and early 2000s were due to these few shared partial design files. In fact, most people in the know appear to believe that MTH's reverses of that period had to do with the outmoded PS1 designs they were selling in the face of new competition, the introduction of PS2 with no possible upgrades, and the delay in production of DCS until 2002. Those wounds were wholly or mostly self-inflicted.

Thus on balance, I consider the results of this trial, so far, to be a travesty of justice and facts. Hopefully, the verdict will be voided on appeal or reduced to a less exorbitant amount.

[Anonymous]

Of course people need to discuss it, especially since we are all toy train consumers and spend money with these manufacturers. . The hotshots at OGR are very bad with PR. Look at how they communicate to their forum members.

OGR=
[censored]