Lionel to appeal

[Anonymous]

I think Lionel's appeal is an understandable legal move, but not to get the verdict reversed but to get the award brought down and buy some time.
We have to remember they have secured debt to banks to the tune of thirty million dollars. I doubt if they are going to sit on their hands while Lionel peters away more time and money on not only more legal fees but also bonds to match the award and interest payments to an escro account. Lioel is already in arrears to their debtors.
Please see my post on the thread about the Lionel name. Myself and others have brought up some very interesting points on this topic.

Keep On Tracken,
Mario E.

[garyseven]

Who is the judge in the case?
Is there anything pertinent we can learn from previous rulings?
Does it go next to a Court of Appeals with multiple judges?
Is there anything pertinent we can learn from their previous rulings?
Can someone give us a layman's (or in my case, a big dumb guy's) timeline and primer of what to expect next?

[eZAK]

QUOTE: What this does is align a mass of lobotomized zombies in your camp and releases the free thinkers to go elsewhere.

"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than have to have a frontal lobotomy"

QUOTE: It's only "stealing" if someone gets caught

How true! In the corporate world anything goes! Greed is Good!
I've worked trade shows and have seen many people taking pictures (of things they shouldn't) with their pocket cams and cell cams.
They ALL do it!

Who did What? When?
This thing is not over by a long shot.

[garyseven]

The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
Bet your bottom dollar
That tomorrow
There'll be sun!

Just thinkin' about
Tomorrow
Clears away the cobwebs,
And the sorrow
'Til there's none!

When I'm stuck a day
That's gray,
And lonely,
I just stick out my chin
And Grin,
And Say,
Oh!

The sun'll come out
Tomorrow
So ya gotta hang on
'Til tomorrow
Come what may
Tomorrow! Tomorrow!
I love ya Tomorrow!
You're always
A day
A way!

[nblum]

Amongst the comments I've read this is one from an insider, Mort Mann of 3rd Rail/Sunset models:

"I have been reading with interest the response to the lawsuit to beat all lawsuits. I have been in this business for 29 years and I have dealt with the Korean companies for the same amount of time.
In the last 29 years Samhongsa has received dwgs and engine photos for thousands of prototype models from over 30 importers. None of the data left the factory it was copied and the originals returned., it was stolen by Samhongsa for use in building models for other builders. I know this is true because in some models we made htere was detail mistakes and these were repeated when the same model was built for another importer.
For Samhongs who stole so much to claim to be the injured party is really strange. What is even stranger it got to court in the first place.
Mort"

[Anonymous]

Hey BillfromWayne,
Another free thinker here...just migrated...you speak the truth! Tom

[FJ and G]

I'd like to find the $40.8 million MTH Big Boy that Lionel copied. It's gotta be the biggest collector's item ever. Do you think Lionel will put it up for auction to raise some money for their beleaguered company?

I'll start the bidding even tho I can't really afford it right now, at $1,000.

Dave Vergun

[GPJ68]

It's only "stealing" if someone gets caught :)

And just curious ('cause I must have read and forgot elsewhere), what are the time frames for the loco's that were involved, ie:

- When did MTH start the design phase (if known) and when did MTH first start production and sale.
- How long after did Lionel start production and sale?

Not that it matters since the jury has spoken, just curious. Are we talkin' years, months, or just weeks?

[nblum]

Just a little reminder of a historical footnote. In the late 1990s, MTH managed to beat Atlas to market with the same model and road numbers of their first O gauge three rail diesel, and did the same exact thing to K-Line's first scale diesel. How did they do that? Inquiring minds would like to know since no legal wrestling ever occurred.

[Anonymous]

The Korean transcripts don’t implicate Lionel .

What implicates Lionel is the they should have known that the drawings were produced much faster that any others before. The fact of how the CAD drawings came into the possession of K. B. only implicates the Koreans.

The link that MTH found is that Lionel never questioned how K.B. delivered so fast on the engines, etc.

The funny thing is that LIONEL could have reverse engineered the MTH engines; disassembled the MTH engines and re-measured the parts and produced all the drawings from the measurements. But this would have made them late to market.


Alan

[johnnyc]

Well after reading all the different opinions on both forums I was really surprised I didn't see a link to this article , http://www.toytrainrevue.com/korea.htm . Go down to the bottom of the page and you'll find four links to the actual translated depositions of the Korean Brass employees . Very interesting reading IMHO .

johnnyc

[Anonymous]

The MTH vs. Lionel lawsuit is definately not a lot of hot air. We all feel very passionate about our hobby and all/any points of view concerning this trial should receive equal amounts of respect. After all, a real person took the time from his busy schedule to post and share his thoughts with others, and that is very important to keep in mind.

But to delete posts just because you don't agree with the poster's point of view. Or because you don't want an advertiser or potential advertiser to be the recepient of negative criticism is a big mistake. The majority of Forumites can see right through this selective enforcement of rules. What this does is align a mass of lobotomized zombies in your camp and releases the free thinkers to go elsewhere.

Bill
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[nblum]

It seems to me this is the biggest story in the hobby in the last twenty years, perhaps since *** Kughn bought Lionel. It's certaily rife with possibilities for speculation and rumor as well as thoughtful discussion. What could be more relevant to discuss about the future of the hobby? Personally I find it at least as interesting as any number of threads that routinely drone on for pages on the OGRR Forum. It's Rich's right to douse the flames, but they will pop up in many other places no doubt, so it's a rather futile effort except to keep bandwidth usage down. This is a story and debate that will not die until the final outcomes are set in stone, IMO.

[RI Jim]

Jeez, I just check in here and I see the same old BS. Mr. Polska, Rich closed the thread and deleted at least one other because it got out of hand and ceased to serve any useful purpose, and he had every right to do so. Everyone should stop blowing hot air at each other and get back to talking about trains. [sigh]

[willpick]

I actually thought that Rich would lock the lawsuit thread yesterday, when it really got heated between a few loyalists from both sides of the street. I think he was more tolerant than he usually is, he allowed the "discussion"[;)] to go on until it really just became a person to person bashfest.
After all, Lionel has said it will appeal, so until that process is completed, it's time to get back to talking trains, NOT lawsuits.

[Anonymous]

Melvin is a control freak. If he doesn't agree with something, he deletes it. That's not what a forum is all about.

OGR=[censored]

[okiechoochoo]

Rich called the Lawsuit thread a bunch of hot air. Actually, he might be right. I read all the posts. Not one post was by anyone who was at the trial, saw the evidence or anything like that. It was all speculation motivated by brand loyality in most cases. Nothing wrong with that and in my opinion he should have left it open so people can express their feeling. I was surprised he didn't boot me after I posted my thoughts. But anyway, I really just buy Lionel postwar and some Williams so I don't really have an interest except I sure don't want Lionel going under and I don't want the Lionel name on purple boxes

[Anonymous]

Of course people need to discuss it, especially since we are all toy train consumers and spend money with these manufacturers. . The hotshots at OGR are very bad with PR. Look at how they communicate to their forum members.

OGR=
[censored]

[nblum]

I agree this is potentially the biggest story in the last 20 years or so of three rail train history. MTH and its lawyers convinced a jury that what was standard operating procedure in Korea for many years was in fact a specific attempt by Lionel to undermine their business. The jury obviously didn't hear or care that MTH has done quite similar stuff themselves in producing products of the same design and road name as their competitors using inside information (Atlas and K-Line's first locos and scale locos a few years back). Whether that information was obtained by legal or illegal means we will never know because neither Atlas nor K-Line felt there were grounds for legal action or chose to forego spending the money on that approach.

Now we have the claim that MTH's financial reverses of the late 1990s and early 2000s were due to these few shared partial design files. In fact, most people in the know appear to believe that MTH's reverses of that period had to do with the outmoded PS1 designs they were selling in the face of new competition, the introduction of PS2 with no possible upgrades, and the delay in production of DCS until 2002. Those wounds were wholly or mostly self-inflicted.

Thus on balance, I consider the results of this trial, so far, to be a travesty of justice and facts. Hopefully, the verdict will be voided on appeal or reduced to a less exorbitant amount.

[FJ and G]

spodwo,

agree 100% that it should have been left open. People need to discuss this.

BTW, CTT has gotten some really really GREAT publicity in the Washington Post, w/Neil speaking on background. You'd think that CTT is the only toy train mag. The folks at the other mag should also be conducting interviews.

Dave Vergun

[spodwo]

Hmm - I think it should have been left open there as well. Biggest news since ??? Lionel closed shop in Michigan.

[Anonymous]

Yes, Richie Melvin closed the lawsuit thread. Did you read the pompus and condescending remarks he made? OGR=[censored]

[MartyE]

Although I agree that if Lionel did use MTH's design they should be punished but...I highly doubt that the 50 employees and downturn in their profit had to due with the issue. Just my feelings.

[FJ and G]

Rich on the other forum just closed the big Lawsuit thread. I see this one is still open.

[FJ and G]

The Lawsuit (I guess I can capitalize this because it is the mother of all toy train lawsuits--at least until the UP lawsuit comes up) is plastered all over the front page of today's Washington Post business section (and even jumps inside), with huge picture of Mike Wolf and a steam engine pumping out a high volume of smoke.

Anyway, Mike makes the case that the case is more than just winning. He states: ...the damage was already done. Between 2000 and 2003 sales fell by $20 million [as result of Lionel's theft], triggering the layoff of about 50 MTH employees. We could not pay our bills.

It is no small thing for one person to lose his job, but 50 people?

Wolf acknowledged in the article that "People are very upset about this." [as evidenced from some of the replies to this post with people's panties in a wad--my comment]. Mike continued: "When it comes to Lionel & MTH, it's like Democrats and Republicans. People stand by their manufacturer."

Interestingly, the editor of CTT is also interviewed (Neil B) in the article, giving mostly background info that you are all aware of.

Another interesting tidbit is that in the article, Mike managed to do some advertising, with descripitons of some of the toy trains and their prices.

While many if not most of you look at The Lawsuit as having a negative impact; on the bright side, people are now aware that Lionel still exists and that a company called MTH also makes really cool trains. Without The Lawsuit, how could toy trains ever have made it BIG on the TOP of the front page of the Washington Post as well as in other newspapers?

[wallyworld]

The news is anti-climatic in that it's a natural course of affairs in the legal system to request another round of proceedings. A real front page headline worth at least several columns would have been if they did not appeal the verdict. One I would have preferred to read was some positive news such as progress between all the parties on compatibility issues. All of this really tarnishes the squeaky clean face of the industry with a fairly good sized shiner.
K-Line, Williams et al not being in the midst of this dust up, as indirect beneficaries as some of these posts attest, can't help but stand aside with some amount of satisfaction from the two big boys exchanging legal blows.

[okiechoochoo]

Gee, I don't know what to say. I know for sure I will never buy anything from Mike Wolf. But then, I never have bought any MTH or RK. Come to think of it, I never have bought any modern Lionel that I kept. I buy that old Lionel postwar and new Williams. I guess I don't much care what happens with this settlement thing. That's the beauty of staying low tech and traditional

[daan]

Thus, when heading this way, another model railway icon will turn off their lights, another thousand people loose their jobs and we have less choice in our hobby shops and if we buy something we pay much more..
We are the customers here, and as I'm concerned I demand competition. If MTH nails Lionel (and probably buys the name afterwards) we have a competitor and an icon less in our train world and we don't want that.
If we are the ones MTH wants to sell his trains to, do we have to take things like this for granted? Or can we make a voice against this neverending-lawsuiting-eachother-thing
which goes on and on and on in the states?
MTH has to take effort to please their customers, otherwise they too can pack their bags, even if there's 40.7 million in it, and those customers are, as far as I have read, not happy with the verdict. Copying should be punished, but 40.7 million is also theft and should be punished as well!!!
Don't think that no-one can change anything here, we are their customers, in the end we are the ones who rule!

That's my final reply to this.
Daan.

[Anonymous]

After reading all this and the news, I've decided I'm not going to worry about the future of the hobby.... but I am going to get a Williams catalog and start planning my purchases there!