Lionel to appeal

[Bob Keller]

A Lionel spokesman says the firm will appeal to $40.7 million jury award.

http://www.trains.com/maghomepage/maghomepage.asp?idMagazine=4

[willpick]

Well, well. MTH has published a press release, detailing the verdict. I read it on the OGR forum. Now comes the next phase: Lionel will appeal, to overturn the verdict,the monetary awards(both compensatory and punitive). This will drag on for at least another 2 or 3 years[censored][censored][banghead][banghead][banghead]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Wow, that's a chunk. Lionel was stupid to accept and produce trains form clearly ill gotten plans. The dollar amount seems a bit excessive, but the verdict was right.

[macdannyk1]

Give me a bleeping break. You mean to tell me a jury thought $40mil was a fair settlement for bleepin' TOY TRAINS!?! That there is such a high demand for articulated O Gauge engines that $40Mil seemed OK to them? My gosh, I thought I'd never see the day when Florida was surpassed as the stupidest state in the Union, but looks like Michigan has gained that top spot. Ugh.

[nblum]

I obviously was wrong about how the jury would see the evidence, and of course, there is evidence we have not seen in public. Evidence we may never see, although if I were MTH, I'd make it public ASAP if possible.


Based upon what evidence has been presented, I'd guess the jury was truly impressed by the appearance of wrong doing rather than any real evidence that these events in Korea led to the problems MTH had in the late 1990s. I think those were largely self-inflicted.


But the jury has spoken, and, barring a successful appeal, Lionel and Korea Brass, and, in my opinion, the whole hobby and industry, have plain old run out of luck. The "show" belongs to MTH. Too bad.

[FJ and G]

So Lionel is a crooked company. Maddox left just in time.

[nblum]

Well, Dreyfus was convicted too :).

". In 1894 papers discovered in a wastebasket in the office of a German military attaché made it appear that a French military officer was providing secret information to the German government. Dreyfus came under suspicion, probably because he was a Jew and also because he had access to the type of information that had been supplied to the German agent. The army authorities declared that Dreyfus’ handwriting was similar to that on the papers. Despite his protestations of innocence he was found guilty of treason in a secret military court-martial, during which he was denied the right to examine the evidence against him. The army stripped him of his rank in a humiliating ceremony and shipped him off to [life imprisonment on] Devil’s Island, a penal colony located off the coast of South America. "

A hundred years later the French government admitted that it had convicted an innocent man.

So on occasion, the legal system comes up with the wrong answer. Did it do so here? Who knows?

[ChiefEagles]

Neil, enough now. Its water over the bridge. Jury is in.

[MartyE]

$40 million seems a bit steep to me. It's amazing how much one can get from a lawsuit these days. I won't argue the suit itself but $40million? Come on.

[garyseven]

"Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling. Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes. The dead rising from the grave. Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria."

[Anonymous]

Good. Now maybe Lionel will learn a lesson. But We'll see if MTH actually gets 40.7 million. Lionel may offer a lower sum up front or face MTH in endless court battles.....we'll see.

[macdannyk1]

What lesson would that be? Keep a closer eye on your sub-contractors? Because they're the theives here, not Lionel. Of course, if these jurors have seen evidence that we don't know about, then maybe it's justified. Just remember, kids, it's a court of LAW, not TRUTH...

[Anonymous]

Let's see.... Lionel now owes MTH a hefty chunk, and UP will probably win their case.....

That's probably enough to break Lionel, but Mike Wolf could sweep in, take over lionel and pay off UP. Mike Wolf could soon own this hobby!

[Anonymous]

Integrity IS,,,,and always will be a good thing! ,,,, No matter who did what,,,,,

[3railguy]

It's just a jury verdict. Next comes the judge's verdict. Their will undoubtedly be an appeal. Lionel will probably take away MTH's rights to do reproductions of prewar Lionel like *** Kughn did.

[Anonymous]

Ever notice when you just get interested in something again, spend a little money, OK, a lot of money, do research, become reasonably knowledgeable and then it seems it all goes to hell. Happened with antique cameras (everyone who had a camera with a bellows thought they were gonna retire if they sold it), old radios (super collectors priced me out of collecting), old cars (only the truly rich can play in that park now) and now TOY trains! Best plan may be just to PLAY and enjoy all the "toys" while we can.

The clock is running and the money too. Got anyone to leave it to who cares? I wonder anymore...I look around my "stuff" and see fuel for the nation's cyber attic...eBay, although when we're gone, who're the buyers? So, is this going to put a nail in the toy train hobby coffin? Not while I still have life, hope and a new catalog!

[Anonymous]

NEXT

Lionel appeals OR offers MTH a reduced settlement amount for not appealing.

If LNL appeals it needs grounds that the judge acted improperly OR that the award amount is and judgment was inconsistent with the facts notwithstanding the verdict (hard to do in a jury trial)

BUT judges reduce larger than life awards to something more reasonable all the time; you just never hear of it because the newspapers don’t feel that that is as big a news-item as the original verdict.

It doesn’t say if attorneys fees were awarded or if Wolf's counsel did this on a contingency if so they get hmmmm 40% of 41 mil. … Not bad for 2 years work.


Alan

[Anonymous]

Reading comments here and at OGR, there are some lionel adherents whose remarks indicate they would not buy MTH products should Lionel disappear from the scene. Most everybody knows the quality of toy train products is comparable today, so does it really matter who makes it as long as you want it?
Can they really be so dogmatic about toy trains?

[Anonymous]

let's see $12,000,0000/$700 say the profit per train so thats what
the jury must have figured on sales of 17,143 train enginess MTH did not sell because of LIONEL's theft and about the same in future sales

Does that seem right that LNL cost them 35,000 high end engine sales ???

Alan

[Anonymous]

Lionel.... MTH.....

We, the consumer, have access to the best model trains manufactured in China and Korea. Who is honestly concerned about what middlemans' brand name is on the retail box for these imported products?

[Dr. John]

In the end . . .

the lawyers win!

[Kooljock1]

If I were a conspiracy nut...and I'm not saying I am...I would wonder about the odds of a set-up.

But again, I'm not a conspiracy nut.

Jon [8D]

[Anonymous]

You're right, the greedy lawyers win and we in the hobby LOSE!

[:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!]

Maybe it's about time for me to go to Z scale. Bigboy, are you coming with me?
[C):-)]

[Buckeye Riveter]

I would be very surprised if a toy train company can take a $50,000,000 hit.

From my observations of other companies over the years taking large hits, Chapter 11 will be filed for protection from MTH. This is similar to a case here in Ohio several years ago when a county successfully won a very large judgment against an architectural firm. The day after the verdict, the architects used the bankruptcy laws to protect themselves. In the long run, they screwed up [B)] and finally were forced by the Federal Court in Cleveland to file Chapter 13 and now they don’t exist and the county only received pennies on the dollar. [:(] Where the assets of the company finally ended up, is another story for another day.

If the lights are on at Lionel corporate headquarters tonight, something is brewing.

[overall]

If Lionel goes bankrupt over this, I will probably never buy another MTH product again. I will never see my MTH products the same way again either. I will go with Williams or Weaver or K-Line but not MTH. Lionel probably does owe MTH something if what Mr. Wolf says is true, but not anywhere near $ 40 million.

George

[ChiefEagles]

Dr. John and Allan are right. The lawyers win. Was telling my town atty about it tonight before Town Board and she said they will get 1/3. [V]

[Anonymous]

OF COURSE THE LAWYERS WIN! WE ALWAYS WIN
WHO ELSE IS THERE!..... Wolfe??, MTH

(except if you happen to be LIONEL's Lawyers they lost the case... but wait they got paid too. So you're RIGHT the Lawyers always win!!

And LIONEL's taking of Wolfe's designs, yep it wasn't Lionel it was Lionel's lawyers that did that. so they could garner fees in a lawsuit. Hey maybe Lionel's lawyers had a big fat greedy secret conspiracy with MTH's lawyers to file this lawsuit in the first place.!!

that's why I just love this profession.

HA! WHY should any of you win ... you did nothing but complaint for 4 years!!

Alan

[ChiefEagles]

Alan [sorry for misspelling your name above], did not know you were a lawyer. Will not tell any lawyer jokes on you tonight [you've heard them all I'm sure]. My whole family is made up with lawyers and judges. I love to give them a hard time. I am not a lawyer, just a retired state bureaucrat. I'll get you later. [:D]

[Anonymous]

This case isn't over yet. The evidence will be revisited by the Judge, and if that holds up, he will check out the possibility of an inappropriate penalty based on MTH's earnings over several years, seeing what the income and profit levels were and will either keep the penalty or lower it, or if he feels that the award is insufficient he will increase it. I do, however, hope that the jury did not base the guilty finding on the "should have known" part, that to me seems to be a very tough thing to prove. Lionel will survive this, as badly as Mike wants to hurt Lionel, or possibly take control of the company, he's blowing smoke and having "pipe dreams"!

Just my two cents..[:)] Happy railroading and be well.

dobba2000
Bob Dobbins

[eZAK]

AHHHHH!!!

Corperate Greed at it's best!

And YOU thought Lionel and MTH were above UP! HA.