strainst American Flyer Erector Set I have come across an American Flyer Erector Set in the blue metal case from the late 30's and early 40's. It is incomplete and missing the American Flyer locomotive and transformer. I have been able to find a little information on this set. The first year I think it came with a 1688-3315 Type IX locomotive. The next two years, the set came with a 401 Type XX locomotive and the last two years it came with the 556 Royal Blue locomotive. Is there a way to determine which set I have so I know which locomotive to look for to complete this set? Also is there a site where I can get an inventory of the erector pieces contained in these sets to see what else I may be missing? Thanks Dennis Strickland (strainst)
Hi Dennis,
Your questions appear to be deceptively easy to answer. I am by no means an expert on Erector sets, but as a kid I did have one of the sets that had the walking robot. It actually belonged to my older brother and I believe that he still has remnants of it. I remember many hours of fun with that set, especially building roller coasters.
I did some poking around with Google and came up with a few facts. I'm fairly certain you must have found the same things and visited the same sites. I discovered that it isn't exactly easy to find the information you are looking for.
According to the Gilbert Erector Set Guide Book , the set that you have is the #10 1/2 , also known as the Electric Train Set. It was available from 1938 through 1942. (I'm guessing Gilbert stopped making Erector sets just as they stopped making American Flyer Trains when they turned to war time production)
If you go to the A.C. Gilbert Heritage Society web site you will find a resource titled Erector Parts Guide: Parts from 1933-1962 by Bruce G. Hanson, 2011 edition. Its a wonderfully illustrated guide, and I think you can download it for free. On one of the pages it lists the engines used in the 10 1/2 by year. You are correct for the most part.
In 1938 the 3315 (Type IX) steam engine was included in the set.
In 1939 the set contained the #420 (Type X steam engine) with copper trim.
In 1940 the set contained the #420 again (Type X steam engine) with nickle plated trim.
In 1941 -1942 the set contained the #556 - O gauge version of the Royal Blue
I think the inclusion of these engines in Erector sets, and their eventual seperation from the sets, may help to explain why there seem to be so many orphan examples of these engines. (Just my opinon)
According to this site: harryrinker.com/col-1257.html
Gilbert put the Electric Train Set in a dark blue metal box in 1938 and 1939. If you can believe information that you find on the internet that means that your set contained either the 3315 or the 420 with copper trim.
As far as finding a complete list of the other parts in the sets, I wasn't able to find one. I suppose you could go through the Parts List book by Hansen that I listed above and identify which parts were included in the 1938 and 1939 sets.
I finally had to stop researching because I was having an almost irresitable urge to go to eBay and start bidding on Erector Sets.
In any case, nice find on the Erector. I hope this information helps you to find any missing pieces.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Northwoods,
Congrats on seven years of this great forum! Thanks for the steeple cab pics. They are one of my favorites. The steeple cab locos must be the most varied and longest produced model Flyer offered.
Definitely congratulatons on such a great informative thread.
It has been awhile since I have posted or even followed the forum. On my last post I mentioned my plan to put together a double header. I was waylaid somewhere before that happened. Hopefully I will take that up again at some point. And now I have a year and a half of posts to catch up.
My immediate purpose is to see if you can provide information about some American Flyer coaches - specifically, the 8 wheel 1223's. I have looked over earlier posts on this thread, but didn't find them. I probably overlooked the relevant post. I have also found photos on the Internet of similar cars, but never these cars with a set.
This is what I am trying to find info about. 8 wheel 1223’s. I did see 8 wheel 1123’s with a 4604 locomotive.And 4 wheel 1223’s with a Hiawatha tin locomotive - supposedly uncataloged. Any information will be appreciated. Thanks. Craig
Any information will be appreciated. Thanks.
Craig
Craig,
The red cars with Hiawatha engine is an uncataloged set that appears in a number of wholesale catalogs.
I have recorded set 841T as comprising the Hiawatha engine you show, with a square back (not the rounded back for coupling to the streamline tender like your engine), the freight tender, and 4 red cars. This set was shown in a Morrow Thomas Hardware Company catalog in the late 1930s.
The same Morrow Thomas Hardware catalog shows set 844 with the black engine with similar type cars with no specification as to their color (ie either Blue Streak coaches or red coaches).
The N. Shure Co. catalog c. 1936? shows set 622 comprising a windup hiawatha engine, freight tender, red combination car (has to be red as there was never a blue combination car), 2 coaches, and several signals.
There certainly may have been other sets using these cars that I have not yet been able to document.
NWL
Seven years is definitly worth celebrating. In keeping with the spirit of the count, here's seven sets spanning the AF prewar period. Since this is 2015 I thought it might be appropriate to haved set #1324 RCT headed by #9915 and made in 1935 as the center piece. Congratulations Northwoods - great job.
Thanks NWL. I'm beginning to think the 1223's were marketed as just an expansion set of coaches - maybe for the 1123's in a set. These coaches couldn't be simpler in design, but, for me, there is something very appealing about them.
Those seven sets really capure the variety and "character" (for lack of a better word) of American Flyer productions over the years. While I realize American Flyer did base many of their products on real life equipment, they were not pre-occupied with "accurate" detail, and never seemed to lose their artistic flair and charm - at least for most of their prewar models. For me that makes them the most attractive train models.
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer Thanks NWL. I'm beginning to think the 1223's were marketed as just an expansion set of coaches -
Thanks NWL. I'm beginning to think the 1223's were marketed as just an expansion set of coaches
-
Actually, I do not believe that they were made as an expansion set, due to the fact that they have the white letterboards instead of following the design of the others. Therefore, I think they must have been made as a separate set.
I actually have a set of the 1223 cars with the white letterboards with an electric hiawatha and freight tender, which came to me as a boxed set. I seem to think it is one of the sets I described above (set 841). I know there is a number on the box, but do not remember it at the moment.
Thanks NWL. I hadn't noticed the difference in letterboards.
I only saw the Hiawatha set with 4 wheel 1223's not 8 wheel ones. But I only checked Google images. I have misplaced my guide to AF Prewar trains which might have more info.
Does your Hiawatha set have 8 wheel coaches?
Since we're talking about different sets headed by the sheet metal Hiawatha I'll mention that the set number for the Hiawatha freight set in the picture is 842. Inside the set box the cars, locomotive, and tender are "boxed" in cardboard sleeves with the car/loco number rubber stamped on the sleeve.
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer Thanks NWL. I hadn't noticed the difference in letterboards. I only saw the Hiawatha set with 4 wheel 1223's not 8 wheel ones. But I only checked Google images. I have misplaced my guide to AF Prewar trains which might have more info. Does your Hiawatha set have 8 wheel coaches? Craig
I had not paid attention, but my Hiawatha set has 4 wheel coaches.
Thanks for your help. I think I am starting to sort this out. The tin Hiawathas had several designations: NWL's 841T (square back with red 1232 4 wheel coaches); Mersenne6's 842 (round back freight); and then the round back with red 1232 4 wheel coaches in my initial post. I think there must have been a square back freight set too.
UPDATE (finally found my book). Sheet metal Hiawathas were not shown in commercial catalogs. The flat freight version usually had a Type 2 coal tender. The cylindrical version usually had a streamlined tender, but some had a Type 1 tender with a long drawbar. The passenger ones illustrated in the book have articulated passenger coaches. The sets with the 1123 and 1223 coaches aren't mentioned in the book.
The 1122 (red) and 1123 (blue streak) 4 wheel cars are listed as uncatalogued. Both are circa 1935. Neither the 8 wheel 1123's or 8 wheel 1223's are in the book.
I'm thinking the 844 you mention, NWL, is the black steam loco with the red 1123 8 wheel coaches.
It looks like the same black steam loco, but with a different tender, heads up the 798 Blue Streak set. I'm not sure what those black steam locomotives are. Update: In the book these sheet metal locomotives seem to be listed as uncatalogued (department store specials) Type 10 locomotives in both 0-4-0 and 2-4-0 wheel arrangements The 1223 and maybe 1123 8 wheel coaches may have been separate sets by themselves. Craig
It looks like the same black steam loco, but with a different tender, heads up the 798 Blue Streak set.
I'm not sure what those black steam locomotives are. Update: In the book these sheet metal locomotives seem to be listed as uncatalogued (department store specials) Type 10 locomotives in both 0-4-0 and 2-4-0 wheel arrangements The 1223 and maybe 1123 8 wheel coaches may have been separate sets by themselves. Craig
I'm not sure what those black steam locomotives are.
Update: In the book these sheet metal locomotives seem to be listed as uncatalogued (department store specials) Type 10 locomotives in both 0-4-0 and 2-4-0 wheel arrangements
The 1223 and maybe 1123 8 wheel coaches may have been separate sets by themselves.
The black locomotives are an earlier version of the 401's. The copper piping was used prior to nickel plated piping, so some of the early 401's have copper piping also.
As for the lack of the trailing truck on them, if they had the whistle in them, there was no room for a trailing truck.
I am not sure there are different set numbers for Hiawatha sets with the rounded back or square backed engine, as Flyer was simply using the parts that they had. As for my descriptions, they are based on catalog artwork.
Yes NWL. I did see where the lack of a trailing truck in these locos was because of a whistle. An early 401 makes sense. Thanks.
From what I read, the sheet metal Hiawathas were most likely advertised in department store type catalogs which you evidently have. No set numbers are listed in the book I have for the electric locomotives or sets. Only the streamlined loco, tender, and coaches are illustrated.
This type of set (which I think is the one you have) is not listed in my book.
I understand about the sets not being listed in the book you have. I have a combination of paperwork items, which includes:
1) dealer price lists sent to the dealers by American Flyer, which sometimes have "specials" listed in them, which are not in the actual Flyer catalogs
2) numerous scanned copies of wholesale catalog pages
3) a spreadsheet containing sets listed in Butler Brothers catalogs from c. 1910 to 1940, which was compiled by a friend
From all of these sources, I have created a spreadsheet of my own that lists sets by number, with information about the contents, source, year, etc.
However, even with all of the above paperwork items, I know I am missing stuff, as Flyer did so many odd and unusual uncataloged sets/items for various retailers.
Therefore, I constantly search for information relating to Flyer advertising and paperwork.
NWL, if you don't have the particulars of the set 842 in the celebration photo above let me know and I'll get you a list of the contents and the stamped ID numbers on the storage sleeves.
Thanks NWL. I really appreciate your help with identifying these cars.
You have much better information than I do to work with. I did see these pages on the Internet, but was not they were the same sets. I'm thinking they may be pages from a flyer you already have since the numbers match with what you originally wrote.
Thanks again for your help.
Thank you Southern Colorado - the set 842T in the flyer you posted is the set in the picture. It's interesting to note that the stamped set number on the box does not include the "T".
As for the T being included in the set number or not, I have seen various sets that are stamped with it and without it, as well as advertisements for various identical sets/set numbers that both have and do not have the T. Not sure what the difference may be, but I do not believe it is a significant item.
I am wondering if maybe sets with the T included a transformer and sets without the T did not include a transformer.
My set has a transformer - boxed like the rest. However, the set has no track and there isn't really any place in the box to put it - I wonder if there is any chance the "T" would stand for track?
mersenne6 My set has a transformer - boxed like the rest. However, the set has no track and there isn't really any place in the box to put it - I wonder if there is any chance the "T" would stand for track?
Doesn't make sense that you would need a transformer without track? I have seen a number of sets where there seemed to be no room for the track, but yet it was there. As I said, I really have no idea what the T stands for.
Nice work folks. You have done some excellent sleuthing here. I've certainly learned some things from your posts. When I collect, I usually buy one or two pieces at a time; so sometimes I am unsure what piece goes with what. These lower priced uncataloged cars have always been hard to place in a set. Thanks for providing some great documentation. NWL I would love to see your spreadsheet for the sets carried in other catalogs.
All I can offer is some photos of the individual cars.
1123
Red 8 wheel car, red lettering on black background
1223
Red 4 wheel car, black lettering on white background
Red 8 wheel car, black lettering on white background
1122
Blue 4 wheel car, black lettering on white background
Blue 8 wheel car, black lettering on white background
I was able to get some additional information from Gary who posts on the prewarOgauge forum Yahoo group:
Northwoods Flyer It looks like I have the makings of some entries on Steeple Cabs here. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
Here is the underside:
The other addition is the maroon varsion:
Many more happy years!
Dennis (strainst)
3199 Tenders and Truck Colors
So I have a question for others out there, as well as my own thoughts on this issue. My question is, has anyone ever seen black trucks on a 3199 Tender?
I ask this because the 3199 tender was introduced in 1930 at a time when American Flyer was switching from black painted trucks to gray painted trucks. I have 2 very original 1930 sets that have 3199 tenders with gray painted trucks, but the rest of the set has black painted trucks. The first of my 1930 sets is this Man-O-War set with Ambassador type cars.
Here is a close-up of the tender with this set. First the side photo
Next a photo of the bottom.
Note there is no rubber-stamped number on the bottom and there are rivets on the bottom that hold extra weights in place on the inside.
My other 1930 set is the Steel Mogul set and it has an identical tender, with freight cars that have black trucks.
This next tender is from an unusual 1931 New Steel Mogul set that featured an unusual 3300 casting that is marked 3190. This 1931 set features gray painted trucks on all cars. Again, side and bottom pictures
Note that this tender has a rubber-stamped number on the bottom and the tender draw bar has an extra length added to it (I believe to accomodate the unusual 3300 casting that it came with).
Anyway, I can only theorize that the gray painted trucks were in fact introduced in 1930 and the sets from that year were using up leftover trucks/cars that had black painted trucks. However, this is only a guess.
This switching of truck colors also may explain freight cars that I have seen with the eariler black frames and gray trucks, which I had originally assumed to be 1930 production due to their truck style, as being later 1930 production that was using up earlier painted frames.
One last mystery to leave you with, a 3199 with black painted trucks and a rubber stamped number on the bottom.
Note that this tender is labeled for Nation Wide Lines. Of the 3 NWL 3199 tenders I have, two of them feature gray painted trucks and only this one came with black painted trucks.
This one also came with a most unusual engine configuration. The other two NWL tenders came with passenger cars with golden state plates on them. One with a 3190 engine and the other without an engine, which is now mated to a 3300 engine that came with NWL plates on it.
This tender came with a 3195 type engine (with 3185 plates on it as the NWL engines are found that way) and a set of 6.5 inch NWL lithographed freight cars.
So, I ask for feedback from my fellow collectors as to if anyone has seen a 3199 tender with black trucks?
We've been pretty busy here of late. Its great to see all of the posts.
strains,
Thanks for the additional information and the photos of your Erector "No. 10 1/2 Electric Train Set" Good Luck in your hunt for an appropriate engine. Thanks too for the photos of the blue and maroon versions of the 1218. I've read about them and seen the entries in the Greenberg Guide but I've never seen a photo of either.
Mersenne6,
Thanks for the photos of the #7 clockwork sets. My knowledge of that area of Flyer production needs improvement. I'm always learning something new here on the thread.
NationWideLines,
You have made another interesting find with that #3199 tender. I've checked through my collection and I don't have any 3199s with black trucks. I'll be keeping my eyes open for one now though.
I was going through my boxes and came across the missing example of the Champion passenger cars. I'll reprise the examples here.
1122 - 4 wheel (Blue Streak)
1122 - 8 wheel (Blue Streak)
1123 - 4 wheel (This is the one missing in the last entry on these)
1123 - 8 wheel
1223 - 4 wheel
1223 - 8 wheel
Cracker Jack!
These two items are reported to be Cracker Jack prizes c. 1920. All I can say is these items come up very rarely on ebay and when they do they are always referred to as Cracker Jack prizes. They are copies of the 1201/1218 style engines that were first introduced in 1920 and were sold in various forms/numbers through the early 1930s. They have "American" and "Flyer" cast into the lower portions of the body, just above the frame. These two examples are a purplish and yellow/gold color variations. I am not sure what color variations may exist. The last photo provides a reference to their size.
108 Switch Tower
I do not believe that photos of this item have been posted here before. Here is a 108 Switch Tower, with original box. Wish I could have gotten it for the original price of $2.00
I am told that this version is in the late color scheme. The early color scheme has a maroon/red colored base and brown lower building.
That tower is a beautiful fine! I know about what you paid for a tower in that condition with box. I have seen many at York in much poorer condition go for way too much money! Thanks for sharing!
Major That tower is a beautiful fine! I know about what you paid for a tower in that condition with box. I have seen many at York in much poorer condition go for way too much money! Thanks for sharing!
Thanks, I have passed on many of these over the years because I thought their prices were too high. This one came my way at a great price, which is why I finally bought an original.
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