Here are two more of the litho gondolas from the 1925-1927 era.
The Illinois Central Side A
Side B
And the Pennsylvania Side A
NWL
Finally, the last car in the series, the NYC gondola c. 1925-1927. I am still searching for a better one to match the condition of my others.
Nationwidelines,
Your collection of sand cars is absolutely stunning. I've found that those earlier small sand cars are very difficult to find, in any kind of condition. Your collection of the 9.5 lithographed cars is very impressive. I have never even seen any of them in person. Thanks for your contributions.
Now back to the more mundane.
The 6.5 lithographed sand cars came in a variety of road names. I posted several of the NYC variations a page back. Here are some variations of the Pennsylvania version.
The 5 variations that I have collected so far are all numbered 1116, just as the NYC variations are.
I have very few 4 wheel cars, but I made an exception for this Pennsylvania example.
Schuweiler states that four wheel cars (1113) were cataloged from 1930-1935, and eight wheel cars (1116) were cataloged from 1930-1932. Four wheel cars were cataloged as 1113 although most were numbered 1116 in the lithography as this example is.
All of the Pennsylvania variations use this herald
Two of the cars appear to be identical except for one small detail. Both have Type V trucks, however one has one brass ladder per side,
while the other example does not.
The 4th variation has Type VI trucks and although Schuweiler does not differentiate the colors of the interiors this one has a snazzy red interior.
The red interior is more evident in the next photo.
I have one more variation of the Pennsylvania 1116 sand car, but I'll save it for my next post.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Northwoods,
Here are some more variations of green Pennsylvania 1113/1116 cars. I realize that some of these may be the same variations as the ones you have shown, so I apologize for the duplicates.
I will let you post your last variation prior to posting the last two variations I have, as I suspect they are similar
NWL.
This is a really great thread. Lots and lots of good information. Sorry to change the subject, but I have a question concerning some AF 1306 passenger cars I recently acquired. I have been trying to figure out when they were made. Looking through this thread it would seem these cars have the later style roof with early style frame and trucks placing them in the mid '20's. One thing about them that is different (besides the shade of the red car bodies) is a slight variation in the lithography of the ends. Notice the upper panels on either side of the end door. The one on the left has just a simple frame around it, but the one on the right has a 3-D look to it to go along better with the lower panels. Is there any information about when this change was made? Or perhaps is the "flat" panel design on the left a misprint of the litho?
Thanks for any help with this and thanks for making all this info available!
As of today (10 September 2014) one of these cars is listed on e-bay. It has later trucks and it has the shading in place on the litho (I agree with Nationwide - this is the only difference I can see). I checked my 1306 which I know was made in 1925 because of the set number and original sales slip. It is the dark green litho and it has the shading in place on the end windows.
As Nationwide noted this could be a variation or it could just be a litho misprint. If it was a misprint it would most likely be due to a flaw in the litho print set up for perhaps one row of the print sheet which would result in most of the cars having end shading and a few (how many would depend on the size of the printed sheet) without the shading accent. At this late date probably the only way to determine if it is an actual print change would be to find a boxed set with all of the cars having the simplified end treatment.
Very interesting observations and conversations gentlemen. handyandy, you are obviously a detail oriented person. All of this drove me to look at the cars in my collection. I don't have many cars with the actual 1306 included in the lithograpy. The few that I do have all have the black shading on the windows on the end except for the brown version of the cars that I have.
I have 3:
Notice that the two cars on the left have the black shading and the one on the right is missing the black shading on the upper windows just like handyandy's car.
I purchased the two cars on the left at the same time and added the one on the right some time later.
All three of the cars have Type II trucks
The two cars on the left have very distinct and clear embossing.
The trucks on the car without the end window shading appear to be from worn dies.
I tend to think that the lack of shading is a printing error rather than a genuine change in lithography as mersenne6 proposes. It does give the variation hunter something else to look for. These small differences give an insight into the manufacturing process. I know that Nationwidelines has a number of examples of slight differences in the production process. It all lends credence to the statement that its easier to find differences in American Flyer production than it is to find identical items.
Mersenne6's observation about the sheets of lithography made me wonder if there are any uncut examples of Pre War Flyer lithography in existence. I have never heard of any but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I realize that it is unlikely, but I know that there are sheets of uncut Marx lithography out there. I'm sure plenty of these sheets were reused for other projects or went into scrap collections during the war.
Thanks for the info and help guys.
Northwood's truck stamping differences reminded me that my two cars are that way, one with good embossing and one, eh, not so much. Not sure if it's coincidence or what but the car with the better trucks is the one with the shaded windows on the ends. The car with the worse stamping is also missing the shading.
Hmmmm.....
Having had a bit more time to look at your pictures this evening I do notice one additional item. The rivet detail on the car with the shading is more elaborate and, at least on the left hand side, larger than the detail on the car with no shading. This appears to be true for the rivet details on the car sides as well.
Oh my, you are right! It might be power of suggestion, but it looks that way on my picture of the car ends as well. I'll have to check them out when I get home tonight. Maybe there was an "upgrade" in the litho at some point.
Naw, all the rivets on both cars look the same. And the one with the extra shading on the end windows is the one with the trucks made from the worn dies!
I've taken another look at the brown cars and from what I can see the rivets look the same on both of the cars. I'm not sure why they look different in the photo; it might just be an optical distortion because of the angle I took the photo at. I wonder if the missing shading occurs in other colors. I have a vague idea of how lithographic process works. Is the missing shading going to appear on any color car printed from the lithographic plate?
Another 1116
As I promised in an earlier post I have one more variation of the 8 wheel Pennsylvania sand car - making 5.
It is a light orange
It has the same markings as the green versions.
It has Type IV trucks
I have seen 4 wheel cars in orange, but I don't have one in my collection yet.
The shading is a function of the way the system is configured for doing the litho printing so if the system is set up for printing multiple copies of the car side on a single sheet of material (the usual procedure) and if the setup is different for, say one row, then the prints for that row will all have the same error but the rest of the sheet will look the way it was supposed to.
Do they use the same plates for making different colors of the car? Which would explain my brown and handyandy's red car.
Thanks mersenne6
Yes they do. In fact you can set up the process so that it prints different colors on the same sheet i.e. the first row of sides is brown, the second row of sides is green, etc. One result of printing multiple colored sides on the same sheet is that if there is a defect in just one of the rows that defect will only show up in the row with that particular color.
One place where I am quite certain this occurred was the Bing litho treatment of their 8 wheel NYNH&H boxcar. Every medium brown version of this car that I've ever seen (perhaps a dozen or so) has a printing flaw with respect to the left side corner brace. All of the other colors of this car have the side brace as it should be but on the medium brown it is very indistinct and not printed in a separate color. It was for this reason that I offered the thought of a possible error in the litho stones earlier in the discussion concerning the shadow detail on the car end.
Here is a picture of a 4 wheel PRR in orange.
I know that one does not see these orange cars very often and the 4 wheel ones are not as common for some reason.
I suspect this car dates to the mid 1920s, but am not sure.
NationWideLines,
Thanks for adding the 4 wheel version. As I have said, I have very few 4 wheel cars in my collection but these 1113/1116 sand cars are not usually that expensive so I may add them as I find them.
Here is one more variation of the #1116 - 8 wheel car. It is lettered for the CB&Q and comes in red.
I have it with Type IV trucks
And Type V trucks
Schuweiler lists it as also coming with Type II trucks, so I have that version to look for.
Here is an odd one. I am not sure if it truly came on this frame, but this is how I acquired it. I have seen the earlier gondolas with the winged loco litho on this frame, but not this later body, other than this one of course.
Here are two of the early 6.5 inch gondolas, one in green and one in red, with the winged loco lithograph.
I have also seen these on the early 4 wheel frames like the previous CB&Q car has, but I do not have any.
Here are 3 variations of Nation Wide Lines cars, which is the store brand of JC Penney's.
This car features the early frame style
Eight Wheel car with later frame type
Finally, a 4 wheel frame.
For some reason, the 4-wheel frame cars seem to be the more difficult version to find.
A bit of a sidetrack. I just noted this car, it is a late lithographed illini car. What is wrong/different with this car?
Oddly, I have two cars that are just like this, one c. 1928-1929 and one c. 1931-1932.
Nationwidelines A bit of a sidetrack. NWL
A bit of a sidetrack.
Pun intended I hope!
I spotted the anomaly right away, but I'll let some other folks see if they can spot it.. Who ever pays that much attention to the ends of their cars? I think we have handyandy to thank for this. He has us all looking at the ends of our cars for variations. Thanks Andy
Since you spotted it, I will post another photo that makes the difference stand out.
The car at the center is the normal late variation, with the two cars on either side representing the unusual variation.
Obviously, the door punch out is on the right side on the unusual variations as opposed to the left side on the normal variations. The odd thing, which is not as apparent in the photos, is that the cars are embossed for the door on the left, but the door is punched on the right, with no embossing.
Great quiz question NationWideLines. As long as we are looking at the ends of Illini cars here is another variation.
The Type IV trucks would indicate that the car is from the 1924 - 1927 era I think.
When we get to the observation platform we find not only a punched door on the left, but that door is highlighted with a border and rivets. There is also a large lithographed window for the passengers to observe the scenery.
Note too that the frame is black. The variations to Illini cars make them an independent collection in their own right.,
The lithographed end is the end that appears on the cars from c. 1925 (first year of observation car) through approximately 1927. The cars that I have that are from c. 1928 and on all have the painted ends. The blue NWL observation also has a blue painted end.
The tail cars from 1922-1924 have two portholes and no observation deck.
No examination of the 6 1/2" lithographed sand cars would be complete without including the uncataloged 311131 sand car. It was available in 1936 and 1937. I have most often seen it included in the uncataloged sheet metal Hiawatha set.
The number is included on the side, and as you can see it has the cheaper Type X trucks.
As we know nothing is ever simple when collecting American Flyer. This 8 wheel car comes with either a grey or a red interior.
Oh, and did I mention that it also comes as a 4 wheel car? I don't have one of those yet. But I bet someone out there has one that they can post a photo of.
202 Banjo Signal Variation
The 202 is a relatively easy accessory to find. And as we have documented elsewhere on the thread it has a number of variations
I recently came across another variation; this one in blue.
I have never seen another banjo signal in blue, but that color does appear on a number of other accessories. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen the 202 banjo signal in blue?
I realize that it could be a re-paint. That would be alright with me. I didn't pay a great amount for it. If it is an authentic variation it just goes to show that there are still variations in American Flyer production that are still to be found. As Lou Palumbo says in his column "Views from the Underground" in CTT - Keep searchin'.
Back on page 7 Northwoods posted:
"This is the 403 Locomotive/Tender combination. It has the Type XX locomotive(401) 2-4-4 and a Type IV tender(421). It has nickel trim and therefore comes from early in 1940. It is Gilbert production."
Here is a later 1940 version of the same Locomotive /Tender, as there is no rubber stamp below the cab window.
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Very cool.
The tender reminds me of the Marx "wedge" tender. I wonder if Marx copied Flyer or the other way around? Or did they each come up with similar designs on their own?
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month