I picked this up last weekend at out local antique mall for $6. My first O Gauge Flyer. Missing a set of wheels and the brake wheel. Haven't had a chance to look for a parts supplier, is there a go to place for Flyer? I usually deal with Jeff Kane for my Lionels.
Dave
It's a TOY, A child's PLAYTHING!!! (Woody from Toy Story)
M636C The brown and cream colours belonged to day parlour cars of the British Pullman Company. This was not associated with the USA Pullman Company but was associated with the European "Wagon-Lits" company, that also ran day parlour cars lettered "Pullman". The original cars were built in Chicago and were Maroon. Later cars were built in England and were Brown (called Umber) and cream. The Brown and cream was used from 1900 until around 1970 when the few surviving cars were painted blue and grey. British Pullman cars are very popular models because they were used all over the country and were the most luxurious cars in general use. The present Queen often used a Pullman car to travel to horse races for which she trained her own horses. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=British+Pullman+Cars&qpvt=British+Pullman+Cars&qpvt=British+Pullman+Cars&qpvt=British+Pullman+Cars&FORM=IGRE Unlike the AF model they did not carry lettering for the railway operating them. Another error was the "George V" locomotive which had only inside cylinders but AF applied outside cylinders to the model. M636C
The brown and cream colours belonged to day parlour cars of the British Pullman Company. This was not associated with the USA Pullman Company but was associated with the European "Wagon-Lits" company, that also ran day parlour cars lettered "Pullman".
The original cars were built in Chicago and were Maroon. Later cars were built in England and were Brown (called Umber) and cream. The Brown and cream was used from 1900 until around 1970 when the few surviving cars were painted blue and grey.
British Pullman cars are very popular models because they were used all over the country and were the most luxurious cars in general use. The present Queen often used a Pullman car to travel to horse races for which she trained her own horses.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=British+Pullman+Cars&qpvt=British+Pullman+Cars&qpvt=British+Pullman+Cars&qpvt=British+Pullman+Cars&FORM=IGRE
Unlike the AF model they did not carry lettering for the railway operating them.
Another error was the "George V" locomotive which had only inside cylinders but AF applied outside cylinders to the model.
M636C
Thanks for the info. I wondered about the Pullman lettering and did not know it was common in England. I should have guessed as the Hornby cars are also lettered Pullman.
NWL
More British Flyer...
The largest engine offered for the British Market was the George V 2663 locomotive. This too was modeled after a real George V 2663 engine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotives_of_the_London_and_North_Western_Railway#/media/File:LNWR_locomotive_No._2663_George_the_Fifth.jpg
The engine also has L & NWR cast into the boiler, which is for the London & North Western Railway. The L & NWR operated from 1846 to 1922. In 1923 it became the London, Midland, & Scottish railway or LMS.
The British Flyer set came in various configurations with 6 inch litho passenger cars. The cars came on both 4 or 8 wheel frames, with both a coach and baggage car being produced. The brown with white/cream trim must have been a British livery color, as I have seen Hornby trains in a nearly identical color scheme.
There is a 3rd British Flyer locomotive, which I do not have and cannot show pictures of. I have seen one and it is slightly smaller than the George V locomotive pictured above, but in the same style. The engine is not labeled George V.
I think AF were trying to reproduce this locomotive:
http://www.lner.info/locos/N/n1.php
The inverted "U"shaped steam pipe (reproduced on the right side of the model) directed steam into the water tanks for operation on underground lines in London, where Gamages was located.
Three if by Rail?
American Flyer began offering trains for specific non-american markets around 1915-1916 with the introduction of Imperial Limited and Continental Flyer roadnames that were directed toward the Canadian market. There is also a Yankee Flyer coach that was offered c. 1916, possibly also for the Canadian Market. The Dominion Flyer roadname, also offered specifically for the Canadian Market, appeared in the 1920s. These trains are featured in several Canadian retail catalogs, including Eaton's and Hudson Bay Company.
British Flyer was manufactured and sold in the British Market c. 1920 to 1923. British Flyer was advertised by Gamages department store of London in the early 1920s. The locomotive designs are unique to the English market and are tough to find.
Below is a British Flyer Great Northern Railway (GNR) tank locomotive. It has been reported that these locomotives were originally painted black and did not sell well due to the real engines being painted green. Some of the engines were repainted green, in order to help sales. The engine pictured below is one of the repainted green engines. The black paint is clearly visible underneath the green paint in areas with heavy wear or chipping.
One other item to note, is that actual English tank locomotives would not have come with a tender. American Flyer reportedly sold these sets with 120 numbered tenders. Although both of my British Flyer engines came to me without tenders, I suspect they had them at one time, because the couplers that are normally found on cars would not have coupled to the cast iron post found on the engines.
The engine pictured above would have came with 1107/1108 size cars that were lithographed special for the British Market. Additionally, the roofs on these smaller cars featured a rounded shape, like actual rolling stock found in the British Market.
So, the British Flyer trains were here and gone by the time the Sesquicentennial came around.
Paul Revere - The Oriental Limited set of 1927 was updated for 1928 and its name was changed to "The Oriental"
The set lithography was similar but not exactly the same. Below is the full 1927 Oriental Limited set.
Engine 3012, baggage, Paul Revere coach, and Lexington Observation
Changes for 1928, include new car frames and truck frames, blue litho doors and window frames, and the engine lithography changing slightly and the body now featuring a roof mounted headlight and 2 brass plates per side. Even the style of the brass plates changed for 1928 to have black enamel backgrounds with raised brass lettering, instead of brass backgrounds with stamped lettering.
....The British are Coming...One if by Land....Two if by Sea.....
Those are beautiful!
1926 was the United States' sesquicentennial and American Flyer noted the United States' history in several ways. 1926 was the first year that the majority of American Flyer sets began having set names. Prior to 1926, the only set I can find with a name was the Twentieth Century Limited, the top of the line O gauge set with the 3020 engine and illini/columbia cars.
However, in 1926, American Flyer used such names as: President's Special, Sesqui-Centennial, All American Limited for wide gauge sets and names like: The Suburban, Capitol Limited, Broadway Limited, Rocky Mountain Special, Washington Special, Senatorial Limited, Jeffersonian Limited for the electric o gauge line.
The naming of sets continues throughout the remainder of American Flyer O gauge production and the windup sets were given names in 1927.
Flyer had also been naming cars for some time, with Illini, Seattle, Chicago being lithographed on to cars as early as 1922. In 1926 the standard gauge cars had names such as Valley Forge, Washington, America, and Pleasant View.
In 1927, the trend of naming cars continued and The Oriental Limited set had car names such as Paul Revere and Lexington.
The British Are Coming, One if by Land.....
One more thought on this. I was talking with a good friend of mine about finding the wrapping paper for these cars. He agreed with me that finding the wrapping paper was important, as he had always suspected the later items were wrapped too.
His last thought mirrors another theory of mine, that the track with these late sets had to have been packed in separate boxes, as it would not fit in most of the set boxes with these sets and that American Flyer would not have wanted the cars to be scratched by the track during shipping.
I have long suspected that the track was packaged separately just because some of the set boxes are too small to fit track in them.
I know that the 1934 Aluminum Zephyrs were packaged in 2 diffferent ways, one set box is larger and accomodates both track and transformer and one set box is smaller and only fits the engine and cars.
..... The British are Coming!
Set 1721 R - B&O Freight set of 1936
So I have finally been able to answer a question that I have always suspected, but could never prove. The question is "How was American Flyer Mfg. packaging (wrapping) their trains in the late Chicago era. Specifically, I wondered if their freight cars came in individual boxes or were wrapped in paper? I knew that the 6 inch cars, both passenger and freight, often were wrapped in paper or were found in cardboard sleeves with the engines typically having their own individual boxes. The larger, deluxe streamliners always came with individual boxes for the cars. My question really stemmed from the fact that if one were to put individual boxes for freight cars into the set boxes, they would not all fit in the set box.
Today, I am able to satisfactorily answer that question, the 9 inch freight cars came wrapped in paper. I purchased a very complete set 1721 R from 1936 and when it came, the cars were wrapped in brown paper, with the paper having tape on it, from taping the paper around the car. That in itself, was only a clue and in looking over the paper, I was able to find the car numbers for the log car, sand car, and caboose all rubber stamped on the pieces of paper. I suspect the paper for the box car is not original and I did not get original paper with the tender either.
As I indicated, the set was very complete, down to the original 3-in-1 oil sample bottle, wrapped in the the 3-in-1 American Flyer instructions.
Here are photos of the set, note I did not take pictures of the box, but it was very nice.
The set is a bit dirty at the present time and needs new drive wheels on the engine, but that will have to wait.
As an added bonus the set came with a tank car, that must have been a separate sale item purchased by the previous owner.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, when Bill Pirie submitted a cartoon to "The Collector" he frequently set it up with an article. Or perhaps its more appropriate to say that he illustrated his article with a cartoon. Here is the article that accompanied the first cartoon that was published in "The Collector". It appeared in Volume 5 No. 1 The Summer Edition of 1982.
Last Call for Dinner
By Bill Pirie #1262
The grotesqque proportions of some of our tinplate treasures would surely lead to bizarre, humorous, and sometimes dangerous situations if these old toys were blown up to full size and actually used by passengers and crew members. As a junior grade railroader years ago I traveled many miles on trains with my parents and was always impressed with the neat joining of passenger coaches and the easy passage possible from one to the other. Arriving home I would couple some A.F. cars together, put them on the table and sit in a chair and study them endlessly, pondering how the miniature passengers were going to make their way out those little lithographed end doors and across that huge reach spanned only by a pair of the t-slot couplers.
An extremely hazardous incident could occur if a passenger on his way to the diner was caught between cars when the “Automatic Brake Stop” was actuated. As everyone knows the engine drivers lock, the train slides to a crashing halt and our poor customer would be squashed like a bug as the slack between the cars slammed together, thanks to American Flyer’s disappearing couplers – unless he was lucky enough to catapult through the door, though in that case he would be plastered to the inside of the bulkhead like a piece of wallpaper, every bone in his body fragmentized.
I was always willing to concede a few points; for instance I could understand that it was patently impossible for a small locomotive powered by a spring to have the ten or twelve wheels of the prototype and was willing to settle for four, but how in the world was that little firemean going to cross that huge chasm between engine and tender with a shovelful of tin coal?
I remember an argument that took place between me and a buddy when we were about seven years old. Influenced by his A.F. engine, he insisted that real engines had red wheels but I paid more attention and knew better; the upshot of this was that train time found us at the station to verify the hue of the engines wheels. For the life of me I can’t remember the outcome but I surely must have won the argument as engines hadn’t had red wheels since about the eighteen seventies, and my childhood was spent at a much later date.
If you are wondering what the American Flyer disappearing couplers are that Bill is referring to; this is what they look like.
These also happen to be known as "garter loop' couplers.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
I corrected the link, but you might have to copy and paste it into a new window.
Your link did not work. Can you copy whatever was posted and put it in a post here.
I posted the same question over on the OGR site and one of the members, Dreyfuss Hudson, provided this link:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,870026
I was sorry to hear of Bill Pirie's passing but it gave me some information about him. He also suggested that I do a Google search for "Bill Pirie model trains" and that provided some additional information. I am continually amazed at the information available from other train enthusiasts and on the internet.
Northwoods,
I always liked Bill's cartoons from The Collector. Unfortunately, I do not know anything about him.
American Flyer Collectors Club
"The Collector"
Perhaps some of you who read the postings here remember the AFCC - The American Flyer Collectors Club. The club had an official publication called "The Collector" I became aware of the club and its newsletter/magazine in 1989 or 1990. I was busy collecting American Flyer S gauge at the time and I was really excited to find a national club and magazine devoted to American Flyer. I subscribed and had a subscription until the publication ended and I assume the club did too. Once I started getting "The Collector" I discovered that besides the S gauge trains that fascinated me there was a whole era of production of American Flyer Trains before WWII. I had a few submissions accepted and printed and I was delighted to have one of my photo submissions used as the cover for one issue.
Over the years I have acquired the entire run of "The Collector" and from time to time I dig them out and have a wonderful time reading. Members of the AFCC were encouraged to write articles and submit questions and photos. The list of contributors is a "Who's Who" of early train collectors. The information available in that little quarterly publication is amazing. I recommend it if you are interested in American Flyer and particularly if you enjoy the stories told by people who were there at the beginning. I have to admit that in some ways "The Collector" was my inspiration for starting this thread.
Recently I was thumbing through some copies and I came across cartoons created by Bill Pirie. He also wrote a number of articles over the years and often created a cartoon to go along with the theme of the article. His first cartoon appeared in about 1981, I think in Volume 5 No. 1 of "The Collector".
I've done some searching on the internet but haven't been able to find out any information about him. Does anyone know anything about him; was he a cartoonist by trade? Is he someone that was well known in the train collecting community?
vintageflyer I dont believe that the 6" cars ever had link couplers from the factory. I have seen the freight cars with them but I assumed they were changed with the available truck kits from Flyer.
I dont believe that the 6" cars ever had link couplers from the factory. I have seen the freight cars with them but I assumed they were changed with the available truck kits from Flyer.
My experience with the 6 inch cars is that in 1938, when the 9 inch cars had the curly couplers, the 6 inch cars had the hook couplers found on the 1937 cars. In 1939, when the 9 inch cars had the link couplers, the 6 inch cars had the curly couplers on them.
The link couplers do not fit on the 6 inch cars without cutting the ends of the cars, as the couplers will not allow the cars to turn without some modification to the end of the frames.
I have a gunmetal/nickel, red car set also. I believe that the tender still has the Pennsylvania style decal, but I'll have to verify that.
Also I dont believe that the 6" cars ever had link couplers from the factory. I have seen the freight cars with them but I assumed they were changed with the available truck kits from Flyer.
That is the set I have with my gunmetal colored engine with the nickel trim. I purchased it as a set several years ago on an auction and have had a number of comments from collectors relating to the tender.
I know that the gunmetal 401 with nickel trim is a reported variation and I have seen at least one or two of them over the years. The tender is more unusual and I have never seen or heard of another decaled similar to it.
NationWideLines,
The transition era from Coleman's Chicago Flyer to Gilbert's Flyer is fascinating. It would be interesting to have some first hand reports of the marketing strategy that was involved. Your example of the grey tender is unique. I wonder how many of them came off the line that way because they had run out of the larger decals.
Here are some photos of the cars that you mention coming with that engine and tender. I have a Type XX engine with a curly que coupler in the front that I paired up with the 1939 cars. I think its an unpowered engine from the double header set that got upgraded to a powered engine. Perhaps another example of Gilbert using up the stock on hand.
Nickel Trim.....
I know that 1940 is typically referred to as the beginning of Nickel Trim, so I offer up this...
This engine/tender came with 3 red 6.5 inch cars that are circa 1939, as they are chicago era enamel coaches with curly couplers. The engine and tender are gunmetal gray in color, with nickel trim on the engine, with 401 rubberstamped under the cab window.
The engine and tender are 100% original and the only thoughts I can offer are that the engine/tender is near the end of production and no billboard stripe decal was available for the tender; therefore, the tender recieved 4 small decals on each corner. It makes for an odd looking tender and no others have been observed with these decals.
I believe that also at this time the windows on the coaches changed from white to silver, and the belly pans changed from white to black.
Nicely done eveyone. I think you got most of the details.
The set appears in the 1940 catalog.
It is Set #4001 Pioneer Passenger Train
1940 puts it in the Gilbert era and they are still using up stock from production in Chicago.
The engine is indeed a #401 and the unique feature that I was refering to was that it had nickle trim, which Gilbert switched to in 1940.
The cars are 3/16ths O gauge.
Its a fairly simple set, but listen to the catalog copy describing it and you can't help but to want to have it speeding around your layout.
"Bright red enamel cars with silver and nickle trim make a vivid picture as they whizz around the track hauled by the husky pressed steel locomotive - finished in realistic locomotive black with nickle trim. Beaming electric headlight and eccentric arm double action piston rods add to the realism - and the tender is piled high with imitation coal."
If it were 1940 I know I'd be putting this set on my Christmas list.
3/16ths passenger cars?
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
It appeared in 1940(?). Is it the fact that the headlight is black rather then matching the trim?
Trivia Question #20
What is the name of this set? What year(s) did it appear in the catalog?
What makes the engine unique?
It goes faster in reverse than forward. Not a brush issue however. I might rewind the stationary f and clean inside while I'm in there.
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