Good evening Leon! I'll be having a bottomless draught and spring for a round for all present. I see Tom was here earlier, and friend DL. For Lars
We all feel your pain. Yes, I know the CGW was last Tuesdays' theme, but I couldn't do anything about it until today. Speaking of which:
The Amazing Great Western Sep. 1953 Railroad Magazine
A glance at the map shows how the Great Western serves the heart of America’s breadbasket. With Oelwein as its center, its lines run, like the four pointers of a compass, through fertile prairie land. Since it serves primarily a farming country, it is not surprising that about 43 percent of its originating tonnage is composed of agricultural and animal products. Manufactured articles account for some 38 percent of the balance, with products of mines 17 percent.
A noticeable characteristic of many of the road’s time freights is the relative frequency of refrigerator cars. The reason for this is that nearly 5 percent of the CGW’s freight revenue comes from fresh meats. Back when the railroad was being built, its first president, A.B. Stickney, founded the now-famous St. Paul Union Stockyards. To this day that cattle and packing center is served exclusively by the Great Western, and the road naturally gets a very high share of the meat traffic. There are also on-line packing houses at Austin, Minnesota; Mason City, Waterloo and Des Moines, Iowa; St. Joseph, Missouri; Omaha, Nebraska, and a half dozen other communities.
Another item peculiar to the Corn Belt Route is the long strings of flat cars hauling truck-trailers. Nightly these highway vehicles roll on flats between Chicago and St. Paul; Chicago and Kansas City, and Chicago and Council Bluffs. Some of the trailers go only to Des Moines, others may go from St. Paul to Omaha; but whatever their destination they are indicative of the company’s aggressive policy to get more business.
The aggressiveness is carried over to the rank and file of the road’s 3000 employees. The engine and train crews in particular are a two-fisted, hard-working breed of men, good railroaders all. They don’t have to worry about fastidious passengers in streamlined limiteds, or about starting trains in such a way that coffee won’t spill in the diners, or sleepers be jolted in their berths. All Pullman and dining service was withdrawn a few years ago, and freight now rules supreme. The big job is to get tonnage over the road, to wheel heavy freights from division to division with dispatch. Most CGW employees are veterans, and they have seen the road through ups and downs; receivership and rehabilitation; maintenance cut to the bone; and, in recent years, an all-out comeback. It’s been a grim fight, but at no time were management and men ready to take the count. The story of the Chicago Great Western is a saga in managerial ingenuity from the days of Alpheus Beede Stickney to William Neal Deramus, III.
It was Stickney, an ex-schoolteacher and young lawyer, who conceived, built and headed virtually every mile of the present-day CGW. A State of Mainer, he came westward to Minnesota upon reaching his majority and soon became interested in railroad construction and promotion. Stickney was aggressive and a good fighter. As one of his antagonists put it, “The trouble with him was that you could not always tell, or even approximately guess, where he would be likely to turn up after you thought you had him licked.” Along with these traits he had a sense of humor.
A story is told by the late Edwin W. Winter, formerly general manager of the Omaha Road and later president of the Northern Pacific, illustrating Stickney’s wit. Stickney, at that time, operated the North Wisconsin Railway, of which “the Omaha” was about to get control. The North Wisconsin road had a wreck under the Stickney administration, and the Winters people were making sport of the mishap. But their merriment ended when the following message came over the wire to Winter.
I understand you have leased the North Wisconsin Railway for twelve o’clock tonight. I also understand the North Wisconsin train is very much in the ditch near Richmond. You can take them both as quick as you please.” – Alpheus B. Stickney
Stickney’s railroad experience also included a hitch with the St. Paul, Minneapolis & Manitoba (now Great Northern) as superintendent of construction. This was followed by a stint with the Canadian Pacific in much the same capacity. Early in the Eighties he became interested in building an independent line from St. Paul to the south. Acquiring the charter of the dormant Minnesota & Northwestern (issued back in 1854), he completed that road from St. Paul to Manly Junction, Iowa, in 1885. At the Junction the M&NW connected with the Iowa Central. All the while, however, the energetic Stickney had his eyes set on the Chicago and Kansas City. It was obvious ,too, that the name Minnesota & Northwestern was misleading, for Manly is southwest of St. Paul, and the proposed extensions were to the east and south.
To further his expansion plans, Stickney and his associates incorporated the Chicago, St. Paul & Kansas City Railway in 1886. This new road soon took over the property of the Minnesota & Northwestern and proceeded to link all the cities in its title. In 1888 the through line from St. Paul to Chicago was in operation. Most of the route was newly constructed with the exception of about fifteen miles from Dubuque, Iowa, to Aiken, Ill., where trackage rights were had over the Illinois Central and the Burlington. The Stickney road entered Chicago from Forest Park over what is now the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Terminal Railroad. An unusual feature on this extension is the Winston Tunnel, just short of a half-mile long, in western Illinois. It is the longest, and perhaps the only, tunnel in the state. Until the coming of the diesels a blower system was necessary to keep the long bore clear of noxious gasses. (to be continued)
Sweep of track into St. Paul Union Station was dominated by Minneapolis-bound train with Pacific 931 on head end. Made in 1948, photo was taken from the roof of St. Paul Depot Co’s engine house.
HI Tom and all.
I,ll have a Holdens please LEON and a round.
TOM Thanks for the railroad maps. Looking at them especially the B&O and the AT&SF ones it seems the railroads had a depot in nearly every town they passed through. I guess they ran all station stopping trains which must have taken a long time to travel a relitively short distance.I had a look at the atlas and saw that there were another 25 stations on the line between Kirkwood and Kansas City on the now UP line that Amtrak uses.
JAMES Thanks for the color pics on the Little Joes on the Milwaukee Road. That is a great photo of the scene at Avery station.
NICK Look forward to the pics and hope Hannah had a.
DOUG Glad you liked the pics. I hope we can get to the Valley Model railroad and a visit to the IRM is a must for 2008. What is the loco the museum is hoping to steam. The expense in getting a steam loco back to working order is not getting any cheaper. In Britain there is a fair bit of a newly restored loco moving to other preserved lines where the hiring fees help to pay for the next overhaul although this generally only covers part of the cost. Although with the larger locos and the greater distance that has to be travelled, I suppose that it would not be practical in North America.
Looking forward to part 2 on the CGW
With the joke, was the two cannibals the same ones who where eating a clown when one of them said" Does this taste funny to you" Oh Dear.
DL Good link to the AC Locomotive Group. I recall seeing 89001 at the Midland Railway Centre at Butterley, it also worked through Rugby on test trains when new. It was then in BR's Inter city livery. It is a pity the AC group could not get use of the Old Dalby test track, to run their locos. while in England I saw loco#87002 which is named after the Group.
I will tell Alan about the visit of Rob Foxon to Rugby in February. You will have to give us a review of the Newark show, if you will. One of his shows I went to had colour footage of the Coronation streamliners in both blue and red leaving London Euston in the late 1930s, marvellous..
LARS. Real sorry you are having problems with the net. It seems as though it is a bad time with computers for some of us, I have had problems here on the net lately. Perhaps its a plot to get us to buy new computers for Christmas.
DOUG I see you have posted part 2 of the CGW so I will have a read of it now .
Well TOM it was real good to talk to you and will call in for Pullman Day, Dentist willing. Talking of the dreaded dentist I had better have a Bathams XXX to prepare and another round please LEON.
Good morning everyone. I'm just in starting up the cooking utensils and coffee pots for Ruth who shall be in in a bit. Actually it's al,most 5am my time and I'm heading into work for six I'm aint's a morning person
So to some acknowmedgements for the bulk of Sunday and monday. Slow days but the holiday's are upon us so we do take what we get round these parts.
Doug-Thouroughly enjoyed the shots and story about the train club in the old interurbans powerhouse. great shots sir no matter how cramped or dark the area's were. They do look like a good club to join. I alway's like seeing old railway buildings preserved and re-used. Great info on your two parter on the CGW , nice to have you back in the land of the posting
James-Great part three on the Lil Joes my young friend, it was worth the wait.
Lars-Great book covers as always sir. To bad about your computer problems. I think Doug's cartoon pretty much sums up all of our collective rants towards the miracles of modern techknowlogy amnd it's applications in modern life. glad to hear about your two cents on history , I'll clarify in a minute or so.
Tom-Wonderfull sunday movie choices, The Mosquito sqd movie is one of my favouritesand I alway's love a good maritme flick as well..I do know about wikipedia's background. As Pete said it's a fairly even depiction of history more in a bit however as I think I understand the confusion of my satnce to you folks.wonderfull railway maps in your second installment of sunday photo's sir
Dl-We will share good tea together at some point ( I hope )Canada was the great areodome of freedom during WW2.The base at Moosejaw is still a serving CDN forces base, advance fighter and pilot training for the RCAF still today,and the home to our Snowbird ai demonstration SQD. Amazing howmany small airstrips in Canada were used by the Commonwealth air training program basically anything big enough to land a plane on. I'm looking forward to your contribution to the Pullman's latter today and on the boat trains next week.
Pete-Great shots from Alan as usual. Thanks for the support on or history attempts round here, we shall try to keep it in the not so much in the forground howeverI'll save a bit of the speacil CR for you and purcahse a round later to help ease the dentist's toll on you and your pocket book.
Tom 'n' Lars -Okay i see that there was a bit of confusion on the recent hostory talk let me "slpain" as I see it. In Canada, history is taught ( at least when I was in school still is really ) on not just the world view but how it effects or effected us. The war of 1812 is taught in the US I surmise from both of your comments on how it is was percieved in the United States, it teaches you the reasons as laid out by the why the war happened and how it ended for you. Up hear it's taught thas the root causes, how it effected both sides and more deeply how it effected us ( Canada ) and how that effected the formation of our country . Likely it's given more school time then what you had, so let me try to explain in 5 pages or less As we all aggree on the war was started as a result of the impressing of US seamen the various draconian trade embargos your young country was suffering at the hands of wartorn Europe, Primarily British and French legislation.As the US expanded west in the early 1800's your settlers had some early conflicts with the western Indain nations ( battle of Tippicanoe in 1811 as an example ) many in the US governmentv at the time felt that Briton was supllying arms to the Indains to hold back your western expansion, honestly I've seen eveidence of yes and no on that one. The arms were likley traded to the Indians by the fur traders of The Hudson Bay Company ( Britsh crown corp ) And yes when the warhawks took over in congress in 1811-1812 the odds of war with Britin to right the wrongs became more assured. There were those in the states that felt that wipping British North America of the map would be the best route to take in gaining the recognition of europe and stopping the forementioned worngs that the British Government had done to you. ) Impressing of sailors etc) Actually Thomas Jefferson was quoted as saying in 1812 when war was declared "That the defeat of the British in Canada will simply be a matter of marching" That quote was a rallying cry in the colonioes in Canada and really galvinised the Upper and Lower Canadiain's against the american invaders, likley why so many did take up arms against you. here's where the history at least how it's taught differs.Up hear the root causes are taught, the major battles are taught ( and the minor ones )but we focus on it's nation building impact.When you look at the founding fathers or father's of Confederation as we call them here in Canada. All of them to the one served during the war. Weather you talk about William Hamilton Merrit, ( builder of the Welland canals ) Sir John A( ist PM ) William Lyon Mackenzie ( rabble rouser and country maker ) GE Cartier founder and revolutionary the list goes on. at any rate their experiences in defending Canada ( then still a collection of separrate colonies ) set them on their paths of creating our country.As I said a couple days ago 80% od the soldiers you folks fought were Canadian or natives, so even though the war was declared to get Britain to stop their "anti US "activities it in fact galvinized our founders to create our country.Yes it took another 50 years but it was the beginning. Without getting to into this, there aare an amazing archieve of info and letters etc in Ottawa written by ordinary and the notables of Canadian society during the war of 1812. At the satrt of the war in 1812 there was a general why are we fighting attitude, as the war dragge don through 1813-and 1814 this became absolute indignation at the Yankee invaders ( to many towns and homes burnt etc )galvinized the colonists to survive at all costs, also created the seeds of our independance from England as well, as years wore on we got more and more independant, in 1837 the Upper and Lower Canada rebellions for a better and more honest and powerfull local legislatures. The Charlottetown Confreence and eventually the aggreement in 1867 to become a sovreign nation. The war of 1812 was that initial building block, which is why I say and that we are taught ,that it's a war "Canada" won, if we had just thrown in the towel then, we wouldn't be able to have these disscusions today .I'd be complaining about congress or my states welfare laws etc.No land changed hands, much blood was spilt and I think two nations were truly born.A
Good morning Tom and all in
Please can I have a coffee and light breakfast whilst I give a talk on the UK Pullman cars. Hope the links work – if not try cutting and pasting into your web browser.
I think it if fair to say that the British Pullman Car operation was significantly different than that in North America – so I’m trying to give some information on things from a UK perspective, but hope to learn more about the North American operation – where it seems to me that ‘Pullman’ is synonymous with sleeping cars – I bet I’ll stand corrected on that so I look forward to hearing more!
Anyway, as I understand it G M Pullman was keen to get a market in the UK in the late 19th century, and the British Midland Railway was intent on competing on its London Scotland route and wished to do so by providing quality of service. They thus entered into a deal with Pullman whereby some up-market cars were built in the US and shipped in parts to the UK where they were assembled for this route.
Some of these early cars are pictured here
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10324685&wwwflag=2&imagepos=12
By the early 20th Century a British Pullman operation had been set up, under British management. However, Pullman did not provide sleeping car services in the UK – instead they focused on up market day time travel with luxurious cars providing comfort and dining for which a supplement was payable on top of the 1st or 2nd class fare (or 3rd class actually but the persistence of 3rd class and non existence of 2nd class for most of the 20th C in the UK is another story!). The Pullman Car company designed the cars, owned them, staffed them and earned money from the supplements. Trains ran either as All Pullman car services with no other cars, or very often as Pullman Cars set into the consist of other trains. Certain US associations continue with Pullman – ie they are refereed to as ‘cars’ whereas in Britain most ‘cars’ are referred to as ‘carriages’.
The Pullman Car company had a works in Brighton on the south coast (the building is still there (just)) at Preston Park where cars were maintained and the operation run.
Of course the hey day of the Pullman car in the UK was certainly the classic era – 1920s – 1950s with core themes of the cars well established by this period – typically these included the Pullman Umber (brown) and cream paint scheme, the oval windows for the lavatories at the car ends, distinctive table lamps and at the car end inward opening doors (so the attendant could stand at the door and greet passengers whist the train looked ‘tidy’ – all other carriages in the UK had / have outward opening doors), names for the 1st class cars and numbers for the 3rd class cars.
This classic era is recreated on a number of preserved railways where Pullman cars have been expertly restored (The Bluebell railway being a good example),
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/arrow.html
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/car_fingall.html
but also for the famous Venice Simplon Orient Express owned by US company Sea Containers. Some info and pics of the cars used on the British Leg are here:
http://www.seat61.com/Venice-Simplon-Orient-Express.htm
many of these cars are restored from redundant use for other purposes – like the wonderful Camping Coach pictured here – what a great way to spend a holiday!
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10460590&wwwflag=2&imagepos=60
During this era the Southern Railway in Britain was a big user of Pullman Cars, both on luxury Boat Trains like The Golden Arrow (more next week),
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10175985&wwwflag=2&imagepos=6
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10171361&wwwflag=2&imagepos=40
Or some of the other luxury Pullman trains detailed in this poster
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10173417&wwwflag=2&imagepos=4
Quite often Pullman cars were marshalled into other services, and even the electric multiple units of the SR serving south coast resorts and commuters had them. The 6 Pul units detailed / pictured here are an example:
http://www.semg.org.uk/gallery/6pul.html
For some reason the UK Pullman car company was not nationalised in 1948 – but by the 1950s the govt started buying Pullman car shares and eventually it became part of British Railways. This opened the door for the construction of more modern Pullman cars, some for locomotive haulage like these built in the late 50s early 60s now preserved and used for charter trips on the main line – they still maintained the traditional colour scheme and inward opening doors, but table lamps were to a more modern style, and whilst still luxurious the interiors used modern materials (eg Formica) and styling common to the 1950s / 60s period when constructed (this must have seemed very simple at the time, but to my mind now looks very stylish in its won way too): See
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/eagle.html
http://www.vintagetrains.co.uk/tlw_coaches.htm
Also during this period BR introduced the Blue Pullman trains mentioned here a few weeks back in about 1960 – these were a diesel fixed formation all Pullman service of very stylish design. Sadly none of these were preserved when scrapped as soon as the early 1970s.
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10316314&wwwflag=2&imagepos=42
By the late 60s early 70s various trends served to conspire against Pullman operations – they were seen as elitist by many of the public (and the Unions!), and business expenses were probably also under pressure. Many Pullman Trains were withdrawn by the early 1970s and BR were clearly not planning to build any modern cars to replace the 1930s – 50s cars still then in regular use – some of thse services had become a shadow of their former selves with just a few Pullman cars marshalled into a longer rake. The Golden Arrow for example ended in 1972.
The last purpose built Pullman cars built for BR were designed and constructed for the Manchester / Liverpool Electrification scheme of the 1960s. These cars were built in 1965 and again had familiar Pullman styling although to amore modern body side design, painted in a special ‘Pullman’ version of the standard blue and grey BR Livery. I can’t find a very good picture of the cars, but a picture of the train is here. Pete – I wondered if you had memories of these?
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10438813&wwwflag=3&imagepos=2
These cars continued in service until at least the 1980s as I recall seeing them regularly at London Euston Station. Many of them are now preserved and run in certain charter train services. Whether they have original interiors I don’t know since I think some have been bought by Sea Containers to complement its southern operation – they have faked up a classic 1930s interior in these 1960s cars which to my mind is a pretty naff thing to do!!
As I say, these were the last purpose built UK Pullman Cars – since their demise the name Pullman is still used in conjunction with UK rail operations whenever an operator wants to confer the idea of luxury – so it is a powerful brand – but it is little more than an upscale branding of a conventional train with little extra in the way of frills above the standard first class offering. However, the restored cars on preserved railways – or the charter cars fit to run on special service on the main line do mean you can sample Pullman Car travel from the classic era in the UK today.
A good history of the Pullman Cars with some nice pics is here
http://www.semg.org.uk/coach/pull_1.html
The Devon Belle Pullman Observation car (or one of them) resides as a company board room in San Francisco!
Hope this is of interest
DL
G’day Gents!
Tuesday already and we’re heading rapidly to the early close of the work week, for many. Some take off tomorrow thru the weekend, whereas others must work right up ‘til closing time on Wednesday. Most have Friday off, except the retailers, emergency services, and assorted other organizations. We’ll be here! So, check out the Mentor Village Bakery case, draw a hot cuppa Joe, and make a selection from our Menu Board of <light> and <traditional> breakfasts.
Since I’m on a self-proclaimed reduced participation, here’s some catch-up acknowledgments:
DL at 11:13 AM yesterday: My bride says that her father trained pilots for the RCAF, RAF and other nations in Alberta during WWII. But of course, that is all from family history – no first hand accounts from my young wife! <smile> Perhaps he also made it over to Saskatchewan – I’ll have to ask her mom next time we are on the subject.
Having never been engaged in any type of preservation efforts, I have no “feel” for the subject. However, I am most appreciative for the efforts in time, money and labor of those who “bring back” the locomotives and rolling stock of days gone by. Of course as time marches on – which it will and does – there will be fewer ‘n fewer around who give a Rat’s Patoot, and someday . . . .
Lars at 4:18 PM yesterday: Having a “bad ‘puter day!” eh Yeah – I have had my moments and fully understand your feelings. Those animated cartoons from Doug this morning say it all!
We do not have solidarity at this bar – and probably never will when it comes to the business of acknowledging those who ignore us. It’s one of the biggest disappointments I’ve had with all of this since we opened on April12th, 2005. No matter how rude or ignorant some are, we have those who go along with it and do not realize the appearance of encouragement. Yes, we lost some good guys, but customers at any price Not where I come from, I do not subscribe to rewarding bad behavior. I do appreciate your support on this. But, it surely isn’t worth getting one’s knickers in a knot. Chill, Mate, chill.
Doug at 9:38 PM yesterday: Great cartoons! 5- salute to you! Many of us can relate to those! <groan>
Thanx for the part deux of the CGW! Better late than never, eh Good reading!
Pete at 9:55 PM yesterday: Enjoyed talking with you last evening! Finally got that video we were watching completed at nearly 11 PM. <yawn> Late for old timers like us! <grin> Anyway, seems like we accomplished quite a bit for our planned trip to Delson and Gaspe along with an Amtrak run in a few weeks. Way to go!
Amazed that there were 25 stations between here and KCity, MO on the route we take. We’ll have to pay close attention to the passing landscape to determine if there are remains about to reveal the locations. (I suppose we can do that while holding our beverages, eh)
Solution for pre-dentist visit: gargle three times an hour with some JD – swallow it! <grin>
Rob at 5:02 AM today: Thanx for the insights and elaborations on “that” war we’ve been discussing! <grin> Absolutely concur with your assessment regarding the true birth of two nations. That makes the point for me! You missed your calling – but it’s still not too late. Why not get into education History seems to be a natural for you.
We have the “Mosquito Squadron” flick in our DVD library – but I’ve been unable to find a suitable Pix for the Sunday spread. The “633 Squadron
Now arriving on Track #2
RR THEME for the DAY - Number Eight
Used with permission from Wikipedia, the free encylopedia. Formatting differences made necessary due to Forums requirements. Some heralds and images from other sources.
PULLMAN COMPANY
The streamlined Pullman observation-lounge car Coconino, coupled to a heavyweight sleeper painted in two-tone Pullman grey, brings up the rear of the Santa Fe Railway's Chief at La Junta, Colorado on February 27, 1938.
The Pullman Palace Car Company, founded by George Pullman, manufactured railroad cars in the mid to late 1800s through the early decades of the 20th century, during the boom of railroads in the United States. Pullman developed the sleeping car which carried his name into the 1980s.
George Pullman was inspired by an overnight train ride from Buffalo to Westfield, New York to design an improved passenger railcar. He established his company in 1867 and built luxury sleeping cars which featured carpeting, draperies, upholstered chairs, libraries and card tables and an unparalleled level of customer service. Once a household name due to their large market share, the Pullman Company is also known for the bitter Pullman Strike staged by their workers and union leaders in 1894. During an economic downturn, Pullman reduced hours and wages but not rents leading to the strike. Workers joined the American Railway Union, led by Eugene V. Debs.
Exterior view of a Pullman car.
A Pullman car, interior view.
A 1910 Pullman car which served as Denver & Rio Grande Western Railroad Business Car No. 101 now restroed as the Abraham Lincoln.
Pullman Copmany troop sleeper #8483 stands idel at Denver, Colorado on April 22, 1946.
After George Pullman's death in 1898, Robert Todd Lincoln, son of Abraham Lincoln became company president. The company closed its factory in the Pullman neighborhood in 1957. Pullman purchased the Standard Steel Car Company in 1930 amid the Great Depression, and the merged entity was known as Pullman-Standard Car Manufacturing Company. The company ceased production after the Amtrak Superliner cars in 1982 and its remaining designs were purchased in 1987 when it was absorbed by Bombardier.
The original Pullman Palace Car Co., had been organized on February 22, 1867, and after buying numerous associated and competing companies, was reorganized as The Pullman Co., on January 1, 1900.
The best years for Pullman were the mid 1920s. In 1925 the fleet grew to 9800 cars. Twenty-eight thousand conductors and twelve thousand porters were employed by the Pullman Co. A Pullman timeline is at The Pullman Virtual Museum
Pullman Car & Manufacturing Co., had been organized on June 18, 1924, from the previous Pullman Company Manufacturing Department, to consolidate the car building interests of The Pullman Co. The parent company, The Pullman Co., was reorganized as Pullman, Inc., on June 21, 1927.
Pullman purchased controlling interest in Standard Steel Car Company in 1929.
Pullman built its last standard heavyweight sleeping car in February 1931.
On December 26, 1934, Pullman Car & Manufacturing (along with several other Pullman, Inc. subsidiaries), merged with Standard Steel Car Co. (and it subsidiaries) to form the Pullman-Standard Car Manufacturing Company.
Standard Steel Car Co., had been organized on January 2, 1902, to operate a railroad car manufacturing facility at Butler, Pennsylvania, (and a
Good afternoon Tom
Well, now I’ve finished my breakfast I’ll have something from the lunch menu please.
Glad you liked the UK Pullman info – I’m sure other will come up with interesting contributions. Really enjoyed your entry. I did not know about the merger with Standard, did not know about the Superliner Production as late as the 1980s, or the sale to Bombardier, or the recent twists and turns of ownership. Fascinating stuff.
Your comment made me dig a bit more about the car left in San Francisco – turns out this was part of the Flying Scotsman train that toured USA / Canada in 1969 and went Bankrupt in the process. The engine was rescued, but looks like the cars all got left behind (some Brit cars – not Pullmans - from Eisenhower’s Official war time command train also ended up in USA and are at a RR museum in Wisconsin – in that case I think it is fitting that cars from that train went to USA – kind of helps mark the contribution US soldiers made to the UK during their stay here in run up to ’44 and after).
Anyway – by coincidence I find a UK preserved railway is raising money to return the San Francisco Pullman Observation car to the UK!! They just launched the project back end of September – all explained on this link.
http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/news322.htm
I quote:
“A £30,000 appeal has been launched by Swanage Railway volunteers to save a Pullman observation coach from the USA that was hauled by the world famous ‘Flying Scotsman’ steam locomotive – and return it to England.
“Currently located in San Francisco, California, the Pullman observation car has fronted an office building since being left on the quayside at the end of the ill-fated ‘Flying Scotsman’ tour of the USA and Canada back in 1971.
“Used variously as a café, conference room and a humble store over the last thirty years, the owners have decided to renovate the offices and have concluded that they no longer require the car.
“Agreement has been reached with the Swanage Railway Trust for the coach to return home, not just to England but to Southern Railway metals and a new working life on the Swanage Railway
More info on the car is here:
http://www.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=2216
Including its location in San Francisco:
150 Chestnut St, San Francisco
Looking this up it is pretty central in the city – shame I did not know about this when I was in San Francisco a few years back when I took a run on Amtrak C – Zephyr from Denver where my brother was working at the time. I’d have taken a look.
I guess what with SF being so close to many of you statesiders you’ll have to go and take a peek – can’t be far from you surely? Can you fit it in to the re-union weekend events?
Meanwhile – Tom, what about us putting a collecting tin on the bar for the repatriation and restoration of this car on the bar? All contributions can be donated.
I’ve just fixed up to spend a weeks vacation in the town of Swanage with a group of friends in Jan (of course just a handy co-incidence it is served by a preserved steam railway…)
Regards
G-day Tom and all present!
Ruth- I just need a coffee for now, thanks.
Well my computer is officially dead. Last night after sending an email and coming here to post, the Mother board fried. I have no internet at home. So here I am at work waiting for some empties that I will be switching out later, enjoying these computers. unfortuantely I cannot see any of the photos that you guys post. I can go on to a few links though. So I will do my best to get back to some more comments later on things I can't see.
I would say that The Sunday posting was very successful. Some really neat pics out there. I remembered who posted what yesterday and on Sunday.
Rob- Thanks for all the info on the reactment at fort George. That must have been quite the fight. I would have enjoyed watching something like that. To see how everyone fights is amazing. Thanks. Your Via rail pics are nice. I don't think I have seen a Red F40. I don't know how you could miss something like that rolling along. Thanks for the comments on the Little joe article. I glad you found it interesting.
Barndad- I thought it was interesting, the model railroad you took pictures of, that they would use an old substation to place it in. It's acually very cool. You could drive right up to the substation and see where all the trains pasted by. I especially liked the layout they had taken the time to build in the building. Wow! Thats is one large layout. Do you know what they are modeling mostly? I saw a lot of mix.
BTW: The dead dog joke goes on the Groan-o-meter as a 4. It was bad but funny at the same time.
Glad you liked the Little joe article. I think it gave a good explanation, though brief, on how it came to be.
Lars- Your C&NW Passeneger book cover caught my eye. Do you know were I would beable to get more info on the book? Possibly so I could purchase it. thanks.
Pete- Your picture of the narrow gauage locomotive was really cool. I have never actually been up to a narrow gauage locomotive. It would be cool to see one some day. At the North Shore Sceneic Railroad, they have a few Narrow gauage cars that they acquired along with a narrow gauage trolley. The trolley still runs and they use it over the summer. Nice pics. Steam is always a nice sight to behold.
Yes the turbine is a interesting locomotive. My friend has the movie. I could get the name for you if you want.
Thanks for the comments on the little joe article. Next week should be good also.
DL- I just saw the Observation car the flying Scottsman has. That is one nice car. Our cars don't have that big bay window on the back. Usually ours have a walk out portion where you can sit and watch the back of the train roll on. Pretty cool to see a observation still in service.
I'm glad you thought the Little Joe an interesting article. I learned something new also. I didn't know the passenger Joe had roller bearings. It does make sence though.
Tom- I saw your NP map that you had posted. I copied it to my documents for future reference. Thanks for the maps. It helps in finding places along a railroad. I also liked the the Pullman Article. I'm going to read it over again so that I understand everything. But interesting none the less. Thanks
Well, If I have missed you on any pictures from Sunday I will get to you. I dont' know how long the computer will be down.
Happy railroading.
James
Enjoy the day one and all . . . .
Until the next time!
Lars
Good afternoon, fellow barflies. Ruth my dear could I have a rather larger Keith's to wind up my day, thank-you. Oh here's a tip and some extra for a round for the evening folks.
Well some interesting info passed by on these pages today, a first off general thank-you to all who have contributed and help keep this site sane and relevent, except for the odd detour once in a while.
DL-First in with info first acknowledged. Wionderfull piece onn the English Pullman services, sounded like quite a hefty service at one time.The links were quite usefull and informative. i still ahve a couple to check out but an all around good show.Nice to hear about that repatriation project. Niot all that hefty of a price to move the car, given the distance it needs to come. I can remember our musuem spending $20,000 US to bring LE&N 797 back from the sSeashore Museum in Kennebunkport in the early 90's and that wasn't near the distance, shows the prices CN and CP charge for freight shipping ( the car was shipped in a train on it's own wheels )
Tom-Ye gods and little fish hooks but that was a well rounded piece. I don't know if I have anything left not already posted by yourself on the Pullman company. Still interesting to see the number of little sub companies and divisions PS had near the end.
lars-great photo's to back up the Pullman Posts today sir liked the picture of the Blue Pullman, didn't really look all that different from it's NA cousins.
James-Too bad to hear about the dimise of your PC. Hopefully you won't be out of action too long, I'd hate to loose another regular contributer around here. Check your newspapers. Similar re-actments likely happen around your neck of the woods, they are fun to watch but much more fun to participate in.
Finnally Tom n Lars-I'm glad to see that we are on the same page of the history books again <grin> still different perspectives for everything. Thanks for the and wishes of a new calling for me Tom. Unfortunatly the youth of this country are less and less interested in the mundane stories of things past. if it isn't on Utube or an MP3 player the meaning is lost sad really. I had actually seriously concidered a carreer in either teaching or digging ( archeology ) didn't ahve the bucks to pay for the coarses at the time and it would take a million yeasr at night school. So I live through my books could be worse.Actually lars if Tom ever gets finished reading the two books I gave him concider borowwing them they are a good read.
Rob
Good evening Tom and friends! I’ll have a bottomless draught and buy a round for the house. I brought more Michigan quarters for the jukebox, so let’s get some tunes playing! Excellent stuff from DL today with our Pullman theme. You really outdid yourself sir! I too, did not know how much influence Pullman had abroad. I thought that efforts to market outside of the U.S. weren’t too successful. There’s a relatively new book out on the Pullman company, and I got to see its author at a 20th Century Railroad Club meeting. I’m sure to see him again, and will purchase his book the next chance I get. Pete, the loco we need to fix at IRM is our Frisco decapod, and we need to drop table operational to be able to do it. I’m betting that the table will be in service in 2007, which makes 2008 a likely year to get our steam service back up. As for your cannibal joke … did you hear that one cannibal said to another, “I sure hate my mother-in-law”. The other replied, “she doesn’t taste that bad to me!” (everyone groan together)
Thanks for the kind words Rob, and the history lesson you have going with Tom as well. Great Pullman Wikipedia work Tom. There’s a lot of good stuff there. James, bummer about the computer. The Valley Modelers are completely HO, and proud of it. Mostly saw diesel engines though there were coaling and water facilities for steam. Glad ya’ll like the animation, especially Lars who provided first class Pullman signs and ads today. Really liked ‘em! Here’s my humble submission for today:
The PS-1 was the largest selling boxcar ever built in North America. From the first production in 1947, until the end of 40-ft. car sales in the early 1960s, more than 80,000 of these cars were sold by Pullman-Standard, most to a very standardized design featuring the first large-scale use of welding in freight car assembly. This example purchased by the St. Louis-San Francisco as part of an order of 2850 cars well illustrates this historic design. Its smooth sides exemplify the PS-1’s welded construction. The underframe, for which welding was already an established technology, was less noteworthy by this time as a welded structure.
The built date of this car, shown on the car side, was May, 1956, near the end of large-scale sales of 40-ft. PS-1’s. This size car, virtually the standard of North American railroads since shortly after 1900, rapidly became obsolescent as shippers demanded wider doors (note the 8-ft. door on this car) and larger car interiors. In the 1960s, cars became both longer and taller inside, and the 40-ft. car was relegated to work service or to scrap.
Note also the large railroad emblem at left with the nickname, “Frisco,” the even larger “shipper’s slogan” at right, and the reflective side-sill rectangles intended to aid motorist visibility. This is an outgrowth of much greater awareness of public relations in the mid-1950s by railroads. Pullman-Standard photo.
This will be me …. Decorating the house for the holidays in a few days
http://www.lotsofjokes.com/media/pic_0232.jpg
Hi Tom and all.
I'll have a pint that ROB so kindly offered but I will have to have a straw, My chops are hurting after a trip to the dentist, please dont mention the cost as tears and keyboard are not a good combination.
DOUG Thanks for part 2 of the CGW, and I think we can all relate to them computer cartoons It reminded me of a scene in Fawlty Towers when John Cleese's car wont start so he beats it with a tree branch .
ROB Thanks for the CR. . I have enjoyed reading about 1812 we were taught next to nothing about it at school. I wonder how much the conflicts at the time spurred on the Industrial Revolution.
TOM.Yes on our trip it will be interesting to try to spot where the closed stations were. It may in some places the small town the station served may not be there anymore perhaps.
Great theme day material on the Pullmans, with great details from you on the US side and DL on the British cars. Many thanks .
Maybe we can fit in the Pullman Museum in 2008 in Chicago.It seems a shame that the Pullman Co ran into the troubles with the courts in the 1940s, its name though will live on though.
Glad DL was able to clear up the Devon Belle situation.I travelled on the one already in England on the preservered South Devon Railway between Totnes and Buckfastleigh . The back end of the car was where a small bar was situated.
DL Enjoyed the links although the pics on the Science & Society site wont load at the minute I will try again later.
It is strange that the Midland Railway was the first to have a Pullman car and the London Midland region was the last to run an all-Pullman train on British Rail yet the LMS did not run Pullmans.
I well remember the Electric hauled all Pullman Manchester Pullman and the Liverpool Pullman, which carried standard carriages as well on the West Coast Main line. In the evening the two trains would follow each other, after leving London in the evening rush hour.
The cars that made up the traine were :
Pullman First with Kitchen that weighed 40 ton and seated 18.
Pullman Parlour First that weighed 35 ton and seated 36
and Pullman Brake First that weighed 35 ton and seated 30 .
These cars used a system called "Pressure Ventilation" which I guess was an early form of air conditioning.
Another pic of the Metro-Cammell Pullman Eagle at the Bluebell Rly.
I believe these were the last BR cars to appear in the traditional pullman Umber & Cream colours.
After working the Yorkshire Pullman , after some years of storage they found some use on the Steam Locomtive Operators Association (SLOA) on some of there steam and diesel hauled specials. although they were a lot more comfortable than the standard MK1s, they were not at all popular with a section of the railfans that went on the steam tours mainly due to not having windows in the doors that opened, unlike the MK1 stock. In fact I still can remember a letter to the railway press at the time entitled "Pullman Prisoner". I think at the time some people would have paid a higher fare to travel in the MK1s on a steam tour.
Although they were better that a MK1 in comfort they did not compare well to the older Pullman cars in my opinion.
This Pullman car was serving light refreshments at Horsted Keynes at the Bluebell Giants Of Steam Gala in October.
Good link on the 6-PUL units, I had forgotton about those.
LARS Reallt great set of posters . Those London Tramways ones are a gem, ones I had not seen before or knew nothing about the Pullman connection.
On the Yorkshire Pullman in the 30,s this train was often hauled by a Great Northern 4-4-2 Altlantic, it made a splendid sight .
I do hope you can make the rendezvous in May it will be good to have a jar or two together.
JAMES Thanks for the kind words on the pics, hope you can get your computer fixed real soon.
Just caught up with the recent posts and good to see you in again ROB and have a beer on me.
Great to see those Pullman ads again TOM. The ads had style like their cars..
DOUG. I guess the drop table is the one you have shown photos of it being built. Lets hope the Frisco is in steam when we go there in 2008.
Great idea to show the Pullman- Strandard box-car . The 80,000 sold proves what a well made car it must have been. Have a great Thanksgiving.
Well the jaw is slowly recovering I think I will try a Holdens special now LEON Please.
Good evening Leon, I think that I will take Pete up on that offer of a beer, thank-you sirSo nice to see that the Pullman day is still pulling into the station.
tom-I thought you were going to take it easy on the posting this week <grin>great little rerolls to top out the day for you. Looks to be another theme day success pretty good I would say.
Doug-Good to see you sneak in the back doors this evening.A usual fine post from you.PS freight casr were certainly big business for Pullman, I can't think of too many railways that didn't roster some of their car types.And the beat still goes on today though under the auspices of Trinity Industries. can't go to far in teh railway world without stumbling accross some of their Coalporter's or autorack cars. Oh happy painting BTW, one heck of a way to spend your holiday's. glad that you enjoyed the histroy lesson's classes are dismissed I think for a bit. Actually the bit of a post I put up this morning was part of my essay to try and get into York Universities History program way back when, I was excepted but unfortunatly..... school never happened oh well.
Pete-Good to see you mate, tough I think your swollen face actually scared our resident cyclops he hasn't come back out of his shed yet. Nice photo's and ifo to round out the English Pullman's. I love that Umber and Creame paint job truly classyMy I think the entir Napoleonic era and it's endless warfare did indeed spur on the industrial revolution, wars tend to do that,never worth the cost though
Well good evening again Leon, another round of Keith's if you would be so kind sir. Well looks like another fine Tuesday theme day is winding down here at the Saloon by The Siding.Great info from da boss and the rest of the barflies throughout this day and evening. So here's my veery humble contribution to the cause. Most of the US stuff was covered quite well by Sir Tom in his posts today, but here's a bit more on the inaugural Pullman's all those many years ago.
THEME FOR THE DAY THEME FOR THE DAY THEME FOR THE DAY
The First Pullman Trains on The Union Pacific
CLASSIC STEAM #36
The First UP Passenger trains west of Missouri sported a locomotive,mail , and baggage car,passenger coach a sleeper and abusiness car.These trains held 110 passengers for the kingly fare of $63.33 per person.Second class or Immigrant class tickets ran at $26.81, but the coaches ofr these fares were just hitched to the back of freight trains and the trip took four to six days instead of the 60 hours for the first calss passenger trains.The trip accross the entire country, from New York to San Fran. took just over a week, and cost $150.00 .By today's standards these trips would be nightmarish ( some argue amtrak still is )but compared to the earlier excursions they were a dream come true and the essence of modern railroading ( at the time ). A year after the historic meeting at Promontory, the cross country fare was reduced to $136.00 for first class and $110.00 for emigrants, who now also got to travel in passsenger trains instead of the back of freights.
Comfort came to UP in the form of Pullman's first Palace Cars. These height of luxury cars were the ornate new plush sleepers which George Pullman and Andrew Carnegie first created in 1867.When Pullman and Carnegie first approached Durant with the idea for sleeper cars the UP's response was a contract requiring that the Pullman cars be kept under UP control. In january of 1868, the Pacific Pullman Company was formed, with UP taking 2600 of it's 5000 shares , Pullman and Carnegie each getting 1200.
These new Pullman cars were an instant hit,which further inspired George Pullman to produce and develope the "Hotel Train" it ran with Dinning Drawing room and Saloon cars which were added to the original sleepers, to create a rolling 5 star hotel.These editions eleiminated the need for meal stops and cut down travel time conciderably. The Hotel train ran only one year, but it's short lifespan and suggested to theb UP what type of deluxe luxurious trains could be produced in the future of rail travel.
The rest is as they say history, Pullman's became satndard fare on most railways in the US. Even TH&B and CP handled through Pullman's from connecting routes through Canada. The TH&B andled throuigh sleepers from Chicago and NY from it's NYC parent. And SOO and CP operated through sleeper service on their joint Winnepegger and Wolverine Runs.
Good morning Tom and gang! I'll have a light breakfast before running off to work. Great additional material Pete, and Rob contributed more Pullman meterial later. Do you guys ever sleep? I'm not sure there is much of a museum down in Pullman. I think it's more plans to build rather than a place that actually exists. I'll check into it, because it might be a place we need to visit in 2008. Good to see Eric once again! Always a pleasure sir.
Here's a little more on my CGW to read with your coffee, and it ain't done yet!
Six unit diesel at Graf, Iowa, heading 190 loads. Heavy use of locomotives like this is “secret” of how CGW hauls heaviest tonnage per train of any railroad in the country
On the Kansas City line much of the cater-cornered route across Iowa had been constructed by “The Old Diagonal,” corporately known as the Wisconsin, Iowa & Nebraska Railway. Indeed, the Stickney0inspired Chicago, St. Paul & Kansas City purchased the Old Diagonal when the latter was a going concern with trains running between Des Moines and Waterloo, and a short branch serving Cedar Falls. The CStP&KC spanned the gap between Waterloo and Oelwein on the north, and by the end of 1888 reached St. Joseph, Missouri, 158 miles from Des Moines on the south. With the leasing of the Leavenworth & St. Joseph Railway in 1891, plus certain trackage rights, the Stickney road had trains running into Kansas City.
Meanwhile, A.B. Stickney had more plans for continued expansion, but near-insolvency temporarily halted further track laying. He, however, succeeded in reorganizing the road without a receiver. A new company, the Chicago Great Western Railway was incorporated in 1892 to take over all the property of the CStP&KC. By an ingenious method of getting security holders, most of whom resided in England, to exchange bonds of the old company for stocks of the new, the road emerged without any mortgage indebtedness. At that time the CGW was said to have been the only American trunk line without bonded indebtedness. An unusual feature of the reorganization was the issuance by the company of debenture stock, along with three other kinds of security.
A bitter foe of discrimination, including rebating and rate-cutting, Stickney found time to write a book called The Railway Program (1892) attacking these vices. Probably the most outspoken volume ever penned by a railroad president, the work did much to further the cause for better regulation. The whole subject is more or less academic today, but in the ‘90s shippers often sought rate concessions and railroads were sometimes bludgeoned into acceding to their requests.
A man of action, outspoken and fearless, the red-headed A.B. Stickney often blazed his own trail. When he wanted a railroad bridge across the Mississippi to St. Paul he completed the structure and then asked the Government for permission to build it. The War Department acquiesced! He is said to have been the first to introduce compartment sleeping cars west of Chicago and to adopt the a la carte system in dining-car service.
Railroading in those days was a rugged occupation. Contemporary accounts relate how cowboy attendants on stock trains between St. Paul and Chicago whiled away their time shooting glass insulators off telephone poles. They often rode atop cattle cars, and not a few were crack marksmen. Company linemen were kept busy repairing the damage. For many years, too, the Great Western was a haven for boomers. If a man could not hire out on the larger roads like the Milwaukee, North Western or the Burlington, he hit the “Red Stack,” as the CGW was known because of the distinctive coloring of its smokestacks. It was often said of Great Western trains that they never had the same crew twice.
One of the principle shortcomings of the road was that it did not have “friendly” connections. Many overtures were made by CGW officials for strong traffic alliances but generally to little avail. Before the turn of the century Stickney rode with the bearded James J. Hill, head of the Great Northern, in the former’s private car. Stickney was desirous of getting the Empire Builder to use his line as a connecting link between St. Paul and Chicago for Great Northern trains going to and from the West Coast. Jim Hill had not purchased an interest in the Burlington at that time and was open to suggestion. As the train sped along, Hill, as was his way, took a little book from his vest pocket and with great gravity looked over some notes. Finally he raised his leonine head and quoted a sizeable figure as the ton-miles hauled over a division of his road.
With equal austerity A.B. Stickney whipped out his pocket memorandum, pondered a few minutes, and quoted another figure – considerably in excess of Hill’s – as being the current ton-miles moved over the Great Western.
"Stickney, you’re lying,” said the Empire Builder.
“So are you, Jim,” retorted the Great Western president. After that both men resumed looking out the window; and as we know, the Great Northern found a connecting link elsewhere. Perhaps it was best the two forceful and strong-willed executives remained apart and that their interests did not overlap.
By 1900 the Chicago Great Western obtained stock control of the Wisconsin, Minnesota & Pacific, operating between Red Wing and Mankato, Minn. Via Randolph. Shortly afterward it purchased the Duluth, Red Wing & Southern, extending from Red Wing to Zumbrota, Minnesota; and the Winona & Western, running from Osage, Iowa, to Winona, Minnesota, with a branch to Rochester. Soon the 26-mile gap from Zumbrota to Rochester was spanned, giving the CGW a north-and-south outlet to the latter town, subsequently made famous by the Mayo Clinc. (to be continued)
The band played on. In this undated photograph, railroad workers listen as rail-borne musicians in Union Army uniforms strike up an air. Road being built was St. Paul, Minneapolis & Manitoba, later to be part of Great Northern. Stretch of fill here was just outside Fort Assinaboine
Gentlemen …. find your turkeys!
Mid-week in mid-continent USA and things are going fine here at the Saloon by the Siding. Just waiting for some customers to enjoy our <light> ‘n <traditional> breakfasts from the Menu Board, some pastries from the Mentor Village Bakery, and of course some freshly ground ‘n brewed coffee <regular> ‘n <unleaded> over in the urns.
A great looking morning with blue skies and temps expected to reach 60 (F) – it’s that time to get some outside decorations put up for Christmas. <ugh> Yeah, for some it may be a tad early, but we don’t lite ‘em off ‘til about the 2nd week in December. Just want to get a leg up on it with the nice temps and so forth.
Let’s get to the acknowledgments since my last narrative:
DL at 12:28 PM yesterday: Fascinating info regarding the effort to bring home car #14 – Pullman observation coach – from San Francisco. Really chock full of most interesting things to “go,” browse and enjoy! Many thanx.
A thought regarding “donations” being sought here at the bar. Anything serious should be kept off the Forums. I know that Kalmbach would take a dim view toward using their services along those lines. So, let’s just encourage the guys to droppa few bucks for the effort. It’s a good idea.
Appears as though they just may reassemble the entire consist if what I’ve pieced together holds true. That would be something else, eh
One of those coaches named “Lydia” should be of interest to our friend BudKarr BK and his bride, Lydia! Perhaps they’ll spring loose with a gold bar or two!
The approximate distance is 1740.8 miles (2801.5 km) from St. Louis, Missouri to San Francisco, California. Just a bit of a stretch for a weekend jaunt!
James at 2:18 PM yesterday: Join the club – ‘puter problems R us ‘round this place! <argggggggggh>
Nice work with the inclusive Post!
Lars at 4:19 PM yesterday: Really enjoyed your book cover and posters on the Pullman Company from both sides of the pond! Really appreciate your participation in these Tuesday Themes, for without you and your submissions, something surely would be missing!
Yes, it is indeed one of the positives from this cyber experience to have made a few friends here at the bar. With Pete and I living relatively close (nearly 2 hours by car or train) we’ve found many reasons to get together – either for train trips for the guys or some pleasant lunches with the gals. A plus fer sure, fer sure! Looking forward to meeting a few others at our spring Rendezvous here in St. Louis.
Rob at 5:08 PM yesterday: Your commentary regarding the youth of Canada could just as easily be spoken of the youth in this country as well. Not all, mind you – in yours or mine – but it does seem that history and appreciation for what it took to build our respective societies isn’t as important has having a cell phone stuck in one’s ear, a water bottle in hand, an MP3 player plugged into an ear, all in the name of multi-tasking! <geesh> Revelations such as those make me appreciate the times I’ve had on this earth. I remember when there was no TV – no gizmos and people actually read books!
Speaking of which, I shall mail those books off to Lars after I read ‘em. Good idea!
Doug at 7:07 PM
Hi Tom
Let’s have something from the evening menu and a pint of Caledonian Deuchars IPA please.
Can’t recall if I thanked you and Rob for info on RCAF training info before we entered Pullman theme day – even if I did won’t be of harm to thank again. Interesting stuff.
Lars and Tom – sure I appreciate the mileage to San Fran is a bit more than ‘a trip to the corner shop’ as we say, but do you guys really need me to tell you when you have an excuse to ride sleeper trains? <grin>
Rob, was thinking about your comment about re-patriating the Pullman observation saloon to the UK – I bet costs are lower due to it being close to a port – and Swanage at this end is not far from Southampton so I guess if they can get it ship board it may be easy – in fact that site said they had raised the money to bring it back, most funds now required for restoration. Rob, I look forward to enjoying a brew of tea with you some time I can make it Ontario and your street car museum!
Pete – you remind me about the sister Observation car in Devon – in July I had to accompany someone to Exeter on the train and rtn the same day – I thought I’d press on to Paignton for a trip on the steam line there before heading north in the evening. I alighted the BR train at Paignton and crossed to the steam platform to see a GWR loco and that saloon pulling out on the last round trip of the day. I have to say I take a dim view of preserved railways that can’t be bothered to align their departure times with the arrival of connecting ‘real’ trains – it re-enforces the view that they are ‘playing trains’ and can’t see the wider picture. Sadly (for them) they lost out on my fare, the supplement I’d have paid to ride in the Pullman and the money I’d have spent on an afternoon tea!
Eric and Pete – sorry about the science and society pic lib link – hope it works another time – I like selecting images from this archive as they are very high quality (plus being from a national museum I’ve sort of paid for them to be there with my taxes!).
Doug – interesting stuff about the Box Cars – shows Pullman were a big manufacturing force in US – don’t think I mentioned that in UK Pullman did not build cars – they managed and maintained them in house but car construction usually carried out by the leading private carriage and wagon (C&W) manufacturers here.
Pete – did not know no Pullmans on the LMS – I think none on GWR either – I recall reading GWR could not reach agreement with Pullman Car Co so developed their own luxury saloons – GWR ‘Super Saloons’. I saw one at Didcot Railway Centre many years back.
I agree, the modern (1960s) Pullman’s don’t start to match the luxury of the 1930s cars – but I think they have their own period charm. I’m sure you are right about those MK1 Pullman’s being the last to carry the trad livery – I’ve ridden in one on a steam special to Stratford upon Avon last summer (Shakespeare Express)
http://www.shakespeareexpress.com/sv.htm
Thanks for your contribs on the Manchester and Liverpool Pullmans – I did not realise the latter was mixed rake service – I think it ended earlier than the Manchester Pullman – probably reflects the declining economic fortunes of Liverpool in that period sadly.
I’ll definitely report back on Newark Films – it is about 8 days away but sure to be good. Flyer advertises some film footage from the Edwardian Period I think.
Tom – interesting link about the University Archive – I’d enjoy the timetable archive that is part of it. Always fascinating. Just bought my new copy of the UK All Line timetable for winter 2006/7 yesterday – it runs to 200+ tables across 2,646 pages of passenger train timetables. It is shame they are going to stop printing these after next summer on the basis that there is ‘little demand’ now that information is on the web. A great shame!
You are no doubt correct about collecting tins at our place – since I’m in Swanage in January I’ll find out what is going on with this Pullman Car – maybe put some ‘non virtual’ money in the pot there and have a drink to the Our Place regulars!
Afraid it is a quick visit today as we are down to the bride's mom for Thanksgiving in a while, so allow me to get a round in please RUTH.
ROB Glad you enjoyed the Pullman pics.Great post on the UP Pullmans, it seems that the early Hotel train was the pioneer of the luxury trains that followed.
I see in the KC star that an original 1940s era Kansas City Streetcar has been returned to K.C. and is going on perminent display at Union station there.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/16070872.htm
It says it was in Toronto for a time.
ERIC I bet they are some good stories that guy who used to work for Pullman. I think there are a few more pics of Alan's German trip to come.
DOUG Thanks for the latest installment of the CGW, it certainly seems it was a road full of caracter, The image of the cowboys shooting the telegraph insulators from the top of the cattle cars is wonderful.
DL Perhaps we can look into the non Pullman premier cars the GWR and the LMS had. I know the London & North Western Railway built some very elegaant 12-Wheel cars that was used on the 2PM "Corridor Express on the London to Glasgow run. A version of this type of carriage, which was used for the Royal Train, is in the NRM at York.
Hope you have a great time at the Swanage Railway and look forward to hear what locos were running there.
It certainly is annoying when a preserved line cant be bothered to offer connections to the main line when the stations are adjacent.
So the Devon Belle car is on the Paignton line now, it was on the other line the Paignton line owned, the South Devon Railway before. If I remember right the Paignton line sold the South Devon to some the preseravtion society a few years back. I think the Paignton line is run much more as a business than a preserved line.
A pub in Dumfries Scotland where Robbie Burns used to drink ,perhaps he enjoyed a Deuchars there.
TOM Great Pullman day yesterday.
With distances over here I was told once it is nearer from London to New York than it is between New York and San Francisco. I dont know how true this is
As you say we will have to look into a trip to Chicago, there seems plenty of railroad interest to see there.
As I say I will be away from the bar for a few days unless I can get on a puter. Anyway I did not want to leave without wishing everyone:
A VERY HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL THE PATRONS OF OUR PLACE.
Pete.
Good evening Tom and friends! I'll have a bottomless draught and spring for a round. Did everyone get their turkey yet?
Sorry I missed the Pullman Nostalgia post Tom. You were right, ... it was a winner! As for the additional CGW stuff, well ... it's a long article and I don't have a whole lot of time to type it all up, and that's why it's dragging out so long. I didn't even have time to put together a pike piece for today. Wonderful to see DL here, and thanks for your Pullman insites. I just know I have more Pullman stuff around here to find! Great to see you too today Pete, and thanks for your words as well. Seems like Tom is hinting at a practice Rendezvous in Chicago, which sounds just fine to me. Anytime gentlemen ... I'd be pleased to assist and host anytime. I see manager Lars made it in as well. Glad you like the cartoons, but you know I have a lot more groaners in me that must be released ... just like the following:
A woman was looking in the bedroom mirror and says to her husband,"I feel horrible, I look fat and ugly. Pay me a compliment".The husband replies, "Your eyesight's damn near perfect".He never heard the shot.
G-day Captain Tom and all present.
Leon- I forgot to order from you my friend. Just a coffee for me, thanks.
I just found out that my mother board actually didn't fry. The computer ( After a diagnostics check and defrag) discovered 10 problems with the motherboard and how it's running things. So It has been correcting them for a portion of the day. I have internet again...
Bandad- I finally see your animation pics. The one with the man holding the gun up to the computer was hilarious. Well I'm glad to see The Valley Modelers are using an old substation for there layout. And Yes, HO is the only way to go.
Your CGW article was really cool. I think 6, 1350 HP F-units is a little under powered for a 190 car train. How did they do it? Thats really amazing!!
Pete- The Kansas City streetcar was very interesting. I'm glad the city took part of its time to help rebuild a portion of rail history. Street cars are really cool to have around. Glad to see it restored. BTW: Liked the pics you posted today. Really liked that interesting Coach. It is white and blue. Would that be a royal car of some type?
Lars- Thanks for the adresses on where I can find the books. I will get right on it and look that book up. Thanks.
Rob- I was quite relieved to find that it was problems the computer could "fix." Some of the time its, A Fatal error has occured and can't be fixed. I will have to look in the news paper for re-actments like that. Thanks for the tip.
Eric- In fact I have the web address to the Little joe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Little_Joe_locomotive_at_IRM.jpg
This should take you to the Joe. It is a former Chicago, South Shore and South Bend Little joe. They say it is able to operate..... Also glad you liked the Little joe info. Glad I could help.
Tom- I know what you mean. This computer has had it's problems. Just glad they could be fixed so that I could come back aboard and read and post.
It's that time again. Wednesday models!!!
A new addition. Not exactly Milwaukee road, but I had to have it at the price I got it. I was quite happy to know that it has sound equipped! This is a B30-7.
This is also new. The cement plant had its foundation lifed and moved across town. This is next to the large Grain elevator.
A nother new addition. This is a U25B. The early version with the longer nose. Phase 4. This is more of the Milwaukee road style.
Had to get a shot of the hard working men who contribute so many hours toward the railroad.
Good evening Leon , just a Keith's and a round for the house if you will. I've come to make sure that the trainload of turkey's arrived and are all preasnt and accounted For. ( this year the reefers are not being parked ajacent to Boris's shed ) All will be set for the special food services this holiday weekend, H&H and Copperkettle will have the turkey dinners and all the fixings ready and waiting for all who wish to partake. Nice to know that Cindy has offered to help as well.
tom-Thanks for the on my passenger stuff.I manage to dredge up the odd interesting tidbit now and again.I'm putting up my outdoor lights this weekend as well, usuually first of december I'll light em up. My mother's falt she's such an big Christmas person, I can remember helping yank down outside halloween decorations on OCT 31st and helping her start to put up the Christmas ones ( no joke ) love her to bits. Sounds like you and Pete will have a ton of stuff to disscuss on your rail journey's, like that wouldn't happen anyway eh Thanks for the speacial over "on de otha thread"
lars-Nope post secondary is a pay as you go over here.Gov loans are available but the repayment terms would to use a Tomism "gag a haelthy maggot " actually in the late 80's when I was comming out of high school the criteria to qualify for the govt, loans was lets just say none to friendly , it was based on the family income rather than the students. Therefore I only qualified for a $1000 a year which wouldn't have covered the cost of the text books let alone the tuition or dorm/apartment fee's. York university was (is) in Toronto big bucks even then. Times have changed now the whole shot 5-10,000 a year can be put on these govt loans with few questions asked. Unfortunatly our youth once they graduate tend to carry a debt load of 20-100,000 $ all which needs to be paid back within ten years of gaining employment. I may indeed hit some night school coarses, if for no other reason than just to expand my brain. When Tom mails you those books I think that you will enjoy them. Pierre Berton wrote them , he alway's a good read, one of our more prolific authors ( passed away a year or so ago ) other books written by him are , The last Spike and The National Dream ( two volumes on the building of the CPR ) Vimy ( chronicles the Canadian Corps and the Battle of Vimy Ridge during WW1 ) dozens of others. All are non-fiction but he's just an intreesting read , he tries to hit the story from all angles.
Doug-loved the latest CGW article, nice to see you back in the flow of things again,your pereps for Chicago seem to be taking on epic proportions
Dl-Your welcome for the RCAF info. If you get the chnace when you are over here again, CFB Trenton Ontario has a small, but nice RCAF Museum on their grounds, there most interesting exhibit at the moment is an RCAF Halifax Bomber that was repatriated from the bottom of a fyord several yeasr ago now.It's been completely restored ( not air worthy ) interestingly enough the pilot was on hand at it's handing over cermonies and he was handed his thermos which ws found wedged under his seat, battered but intact,hopefully he didn't drink the tomato soup that was inside it seeing as the plane was shot down in 1944
Pete-Interesting story on that streetcar. Likely a PCC have to guess due to the lack of picture. But the TTC bought out most of KC's PCC fleet when the Kansa City transit ended streetcar operations. It was cheaper to buy up[ used cars and convert them to Toronto guage then to buy new,they picked up PCC's from Birmingham and Cleveland as well. In the end TTC operated a unified fleet of 775 PCC's from the end of the Witt's tenure in 1966- till the early 80's when the new CLRV's began delivery. today their fleet is all CLRV / ALRV's with two PCC's left as herritage summer use charter cars.
James-Fine locomotive editions young man. Oh and good to see the inclusive post and to hear that the ole mother board isn't as fried as you had feared. always liked the C30's and the Uboats, alas canadian railroads never embraced GE locomotives till the late 80's and 90's so none served on this side of the boarder.The F40 in the red's a rarity, VIA will paint up two or three locomotives like that a year, all advertising makes the locomotive into a rolling billboard, helps pay the bills. ther's at least one "slime green" one floating out there with big "Telus Mobility" signs all over it. The Red one was painted for the CBC's 50th aniversary ( Canadian Broadcasting Network TV and radio) Also a crown corporation.
Eric-Nice to see you back sir,I had hoped it was not more computer woes that kept you away, good to hear that it wasn't.That WP piece was from a WP theme day we had oh last year, sparked quite a bit of disscussion amongst the legion of the lost at the time. Tom's numbers are about smack on for the F40's, VIA still ahs about 10 or 12 others stored servicable above and beyond the 42 that are in service. Certaion trains and districts are better suited to the continuing usage of the F40's over the P42's. My hometown is a Prime example, we have 10 VIA's a day usually only two are GE powered, they have difficulty with the Dundas hill leading into town, the GE's just don't load up and dig in as well as the F40's I figure that VIA will run them till they drop, then run them some more.
Well gents set up some rounds for holiday toasts, the bar chandler is buying for his American friends sorry DL and Nick but you guys still have to buy LOL
Hi Tom and everyone, a round for the house.
Lots to be thankful for. Our Place for sure. You guys.
Missed the boat due to circumstances but here's a couple things
http://images.nypl.org/?id=469747&t=w
http://images.nypl.org/?id=469738&t=w
A train always helps. This one is at Buffalo in 1936. Seems to be about air-conditioning.
http://iarchives.nysed.gov/images/extscaled/airconditpullmancarfull.jpg
Explored that link that Tom put yesterday and found this Milwaukee Road ad
http://tjrhino1.umsl.edu/Barriger_Collection/milwaukee_ad.html
Here's that Little Joe of Illinois Railroad Museum coming down the street
http://davesrailpix.com/cssb/htm/ss335.htm
It's going to rain on the parade today, but R. H. Macy sells dry goods.
http://images.nypl.org/?id=1219153&t=w
Long Island Rail Road coach and London, Midland & Scottish 4-6-2
http://photoswest.org/photos/00020501/00020567.jpg
You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant
http://images.nypl.org/?id=482752&t=w
Nick, was it Down By The River by Neil Young and Crazy Horse?
A
Mike
Happy Thanksgiving to our U.S. customers!
Another blue sky day here in mid-continent USA, where the petrol prices have “soared’ to $2.19 (rounded) – they just have to gouge the holiday motorists, eh Anyway, temps are supposed to be in the 60s (F) again. Nice day and I hope it is so wherever the rest of you are!
Getting right to the acknowledgments, after a most annoying start - lost this Post on two tries - fortunately, I had the bulk of it on my WP. <good grief!>
DL at 11:12 AM yesterday: Wish I had more info to pass your way regarding the RCAFs training in relation to your uncle’s experiences during WWII.
Insofar as overnight passenger train travel is concerned – I NEVER require an excuse! Problem is I prefer VIA Rail, and the costs for me to get to the station from mid-continent USA are becoming rather prohibitive. For example, what used to be a round trip fare for TWO is now nearly tripled, and that’s with months of advance planning – no last minute stuff. If anything factors in against our travels to the UK it will most certainly be the air fares. Of course I have a built-in-bias against traveling coach for such a long distance. So, I’m already operating against the curve when it comes to finding affordable fares. <grim>
Your comments regarding the preserved railways having no consideration regarding the scheduling with “real” trains brings to mind the way Amtrak operates here. For example, there’s a train that arrives in Kansas City, Missouri from Los Angeles on a daily basis – the Southwest Chief. The schedule has it arriving at 7:26 AM at KCity’s Union Station. Now, there is also a train scheduled to depart for Chicago, via St. Louis at 7:30 AM. So any passengers aboard the Chief who wish to change trains for destinations in Missouri or Illinois (other than Chicago – where the Chief terminates) they must wait until 4:30 PM for the next train – and that one terminates in St. Louis. Confused You betchaboots. Make any sense Nope. And it’s been going on like this for decades ‘round the country. Amtrak is NOT a rail system, it’s simply a hodge-podge remotely resembling one – but with so many glitches that it is sadly laughable. <groan>
Several years ago that library that I mentioned hosted a two-day seminar on passenger equipment and diesel locomotives from decades past. It was a terrific forum to attend. There were so many facets to it all, with representatives from those great times providing narratives to their slide collections and 16 mm motion pictures. Quite a bit of the library’s offerings were on display – but hardly all – and you can bet those tables were in demand. My bride had given me the admission as a birthday present, one that really will be hard to top. As with you, I can easily become engrossed and enthralled simply browsing through the schedules of the day, or the rosters of equipment, or . . . . <grin>
Pete at 2:32 PM yesterday: Many thanx for keeping the place vibrant with your visit!
Check out the info from Lars, as he addressed your comments regarding the distances between New York – London and New York – San Francisco. Gotta watch that anecdotal stuff, eh
Interesting and enlightening story out of the KC Star – however, as pointed out by Lars, wonder why they didn’t include a picture of the trolley Happens all too often these days – citing the VIA Rail special trains on Remembrance day of this and last year.
Liked that Pix of the pub. My late friend up in Dartmouth (Halifax) who hailed from Scotland, was an active member of the Nova Scotia Robert Burn’s Society. He could quote Burns’ poetry and do so while engaged in dialogue about diverse subject matter. The pipers and tributes from the members still echo in my aging head.
Received your Email and will hold the reply ‘til Sunday. Enjoy the Thanksgiving holiday and weekend in southwestern MO!
Lars at 4:29 PM yesterday: A very introspective Post from you and I found it to be one of your finest! Covered lots of territory.
There are times when I too think back on that part of my life where career played heavily into my comings ‘n goings. Would I do it a
G-day Tom and all present.
I just noticed from Tom's latest post and a few others have talked about it, that Cindy has taken over for the day.
Alright Cindy, could I get a cup of OJ with a splash of Vanilla. Thanks.
Just came on this fine morning to wish everyone here a....
Happy Thanksgiving!!
Hope the Gobblers are good!!
Happy railroading
Happy T-Day to all! No time to stay for a drink, but I'll spring for a round. I have to get back to my work before it's discovered that I'm not working! Hope my family here all have a terrific day with their family and friends, and get those holiday lights up while the weather is nice! Have a feast!
(great graphics Tom)
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