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Very strange things

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, December 10, 2019 10:36 AM

Well, if anyone shot that bulb off it wasn't me, I have the highest respect for historic artefacts!  Especially toy  train artefacts.  I'm amazed how many have survived to this point in time.  

Which mean the owners of the same really, really  loved them.  

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, December 10, 2019 12:52 AM

Penny Trains

 

Flintlock76
Wow! A Martian from the REAL "War Of The Worlds!"

I was trying to find a pic of one of those American Flyer prewar signals with the round green face and 3 bulbs but I couldn't find one.  At any rate those AF signals always remind me of the WotW Martians.

 

Is this the signal you are looking for? One bulb is missing though..... Wayne probably shot it off...Wink

Photo by forum member Jimplayer 

zugmann
Miningman
  4) Pennsy dwarf signal. Looks like something from Minions. Going to walk, waddle, right over to you and check you out! Bet I know who their masters are!

More commonly referred to as "pot signals" on the Pennsy.  At least in territories I've been to.  Still many of them in use - some with LED upgrades.

 

Another precious "heritage" left by the "Standard Railroad of the World". I bet they will last another 15 years until our trains would be controlled by A.I ......

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, December 9, 2019 9:06 PM

Penny Trains

 

 
Flintlock76
Wow! A Martian from the REAL "War Of The Worlds!"

 

I was trying to find a pic of one of those American Flyer prewar signals with the round green face and 3 bulbs but I couldn't find one.  At any rate those AF signals always remind me of the WotW Martians.

 

Don't be surprised if that American Flyer signal WAS the inspiration for the Martian look, Hollywood special effects people and designers get their inspiration from all sorts of places.

Remember that grinding "woo-woo-woo-woo" sound the Martian death rays made?  The sound effect came from a Ford starter motor!  

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Posted by Penny Trains on Monday, December 9, 2019 6:53 PM

Flintlock76
Wow! A Martian from the REAL "War Of The Worlds!"

I was trying to find a pic of one of those American Flyer prewar signals with the round green face and 3 bulbs but I couldn't find one.  At any rate those AF signals always remind me of the WotW Martians.

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by zugmann on Monday, December 9, 2019 4:15 PM

Miningman
  4) Pennsy dwarf signal. Looks like something from Minions. Going to walk, waddle, right over to you and check you out! Bet I know who their masters are!

More commonly referred to as "pot signals" on the Pennsy.  At least in territories I've been to.  Still many of them in use - some with LED upgrades.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, December 9, 2019 9:52 AM

Jones1945

Am I the only one around here who wants to stab those jelly-like eyes? AlienTongue Tied

 

No, I wouldn't do that, that would be cruel.

I'd just shoot the thing and call it a day!  But not until I'd determined the bugger was hostile, which of course the movie established beyond a doubt. 

Then I'd try to figure out if Martians are good to eat!

Hey, waste not, want not!  Chef

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, December 9, 2019 9:21 AM

Interesting that the aspect called 'permissive signal' calls for operating at the equivalent of restricted speed...

I have to wonder if these were used at Manhattan Transfer for the relatively brief time between 1925 and the extension of catenary through Penn Station.  It may bear looking into that this is a West End project; was there standardization of the "two-head" round position lights on Eastern terminals along with the Gibbs & Hill electrifications?  I have not been able to read the articles yet so there may be more information there.

When did PRR go from the four-in-a-row position light signals to simple three?  I know it was early but there has to be a story and perhaps we can get it from what remains of historical records if someone has not already told it.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, December 9, 2019 8:24 AM

Check out the "Domino" or "Headstone" signals that were used until the 1970s at Chicago Union Staton.  Article only mentions the South Approach, but they were on the North Approach, too.

https://www.railroadsignals.us/rulebooks/PRRCUS/index.htm

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, December 9, 2019 7:14 AM

Am I the only one around here who wants to stab those jelly-like eyes? AlienTongue Tied

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, December 8, 2019 7:19 PM

Penny Trains

 

 
Miningman
4) Pennsy dwarf signal. Looks like something from Minions. Going to walk, waddle, right over to you and check you out!

 

 

Bet I know who their masters are!  Wink

 

Wow!  A Martian from the REAL "War Of The Worlds!"  

They sure don't make 'em like George Pal did anymore!

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Posted by Penny Trains on Sunday, December 8, 2019 6:52 PM

Miningman
4) Pennsy dwarf signal. Looks like something from Minions. Going to walk, waddle, right over to you and check you out!

Bet I know who their masters are!  Wink

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, December 8, 2019 1:00 PM
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, December 7, 2019 3:59 PM

...Port Imperial refers to the much, much later use of this area by Arthur Imperatore...

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, December 8, 2019 11:34 AM

Well that settles it as far as I'm concerned!  Dave's the man, if he doesn't know what happened then it never happened to begin with. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, December 8, 2019 10:16 AM

The Weehawken Terminaln was definitely mislabeled.  The N YO&W had already stopped using it, and we can be certain that all the passenger equipment in the picture was West Shore New York Central equipment, waiting between rush hours.  The lack of any passeners in the photo is due to the service by then was down to a few Haverstrw - Weehawken trains in the morning and few back in the evening.  There would not be any NYO&W equipment at the terminal at the time of the photograph.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, December 8, 2019 9:02 AM

As I said I would I did some checking on O&W and NYC passenger car colors, and this is what I found.

On the O&W, the late era steel cars had a grey finish with yellow bands, thick below the windows, thin on top.  Their earlier wooden cars (not in service in the late 50's) were maroon.  This is from the Morning Sun book "NYO&W in Color."

The NYC passenger cars on the West Shore were predominantly Pullman Green, but there was a smattering of two-tone grey cars, definately in the minority.  This is from another Morning Sun book "NYC's West Shore Commuter Territory."

So, those cars at the Weehawken terminal could be either-or.  Again, it's too bad it's not a color shot.  We'll never know for certain.  Not that it really matters.

And yes, West Shore commuter service didn't have long to live.  Declining ridership certainly, but to make a long story short what put the final nail in the coffin was the NYC's abandonment of the ferryboat service from Weehawken to Manhattan in March of 1959.  With no easy way to reach the city from the Jersey side commuters stopped taking the trains and switched to buses.  Discontinuance of all West Shore commuter service came December 10, 1959.  

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, December 8, 2019 5:45 AM

Overmod

...There was actually a second pass at this idea, with a gyroscopic (as I recall it) railcar that used two overhead rails for the tilt protection.  This looked as if inspired by Brennan's monorail without actually looking too carefully at why Brennan's monorail worked -- the overhead turned out to be underdesigned; the prototype crashed in a curve, one panic or another came along, and that was all there was for the idea of single ground rail.

I still think there was a passenger future for Brennan's equipment running on top of cables, as you see in a couple of the pictures of the research.  At least for the twenty minutes before there was some high-injury accident... 

The gyro monorail, feel the "magic" of the gyroscope!

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, December 8, 2019 2:25 AM

Flintlock76
You mean it actually worked?

Worse yet, it worked at comparatively high speed (although some of the 'projected' speeds for it were not likely without revised suspension and guiding!)

In that era of little passenger competition from non-rail sources, the thing was interesting, in the same sort of way the cable-driven elevated railway in Manhattan and the Beach pneumatic tube train were.  They were really nifty ... until you started thinking about transporting large numbers of passengers day-in, day-out on them. 

The passenger cars, for example, were built on the British boat-train principle -- which is admirable for commuter service if you can manage slam-door compartments.  This was of necessity because of course there was no lateral room for an aisle, and to get the same amount of seating as in a conventional railroad coach, you had to put one 'side' worth of seats above the other.  This was neither a stability nor a balance problem because you had the obligate overhead rail.  Stations had to be bi-level and of course both levels had people boarding and exiting simultaneously all down the train, which meant much more structure in the station platforms than I think was really expected. 

There was actually a second pass at this idea, with a gyroscopic (as I recall it) railcar that used two overhead rails for the tilt protection.  This looked as if inspired by Brennan's monorail without actually looking too carefully at why Brennan's monorail worked -- the overhead turned out to be underdesigned; the prototype crashed in a curve, one panic or another came along, and that was all there was for the idea of single ground rail.

I still think there was a passenger future for Brennan's equipment running on top of cables, as you see in a couple of the pictures of the research.  At least for the twenty minutes before there was some high-injury accident...

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, December 7, 2019 11:48 PM

Remember that the West Shore yards were very famously in Weehawken, so it would make sense that the O&W's leased facilities were also at least nominally there.  And so it appears they are: Port Imperial is formally located there although Edgewater's terminal is only a short distance away.  What the caption did not say is that Port Imperial was the site where the leased terminal was built, which is the other way around... Imperatore's ferry came long after the railroad ferries stopped running in the late Sixties.

Here is a view of the Weehawken area from a different angle,

in 1938... 'did you recognise your block across the square ... over there...

Strange that the whole of the West Shore's own passenger service would be gone hardly more than a half-decade later...

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, December 7, 2019 10:53 PM

While the terminal was the place that O&W terminated its trains, they were only a tenant.  O&W passenger service ended in 1953.

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, December 7, 2019 10:39 PM

The caption reads as follows:

NY Ontario & Western Terminal Weehawken NJ

Weehawken passenger terminal for the New York Ontario & Western Railroad. On this site today is the Port Imperial Ferry Terminal. At the time this picture was taken, passenger service was no longer running. Photo date 1956. The railroad will cease operation and liquidate within a year.

 

It is entirely possible the caption is in error, but I assumed it was accurate.

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, December 7, 2019 10:30 PM

They might  be NYC West Shore cars as you say, but I'm not so sure.  From what I can tell from the photo the cars on the right have a color scheme that looks an awful lot like the late two-tone scheme used by the O&W on passenger cars.  NYC cars on the West Shore were (I think) always Pullman Green, but I'll have to check that.  I'm not going to check now, it's 11:30 EST and I'm running out of steam.  

Too bad that's not a color shot.

Anyway, I found a video of some vintage O&W action from 1927.  Not near the West Shore line, but interesting just the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxP9VgHuN4c  

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, December 7, 2019 10:27 PM

I went with the caption that came along with the picture.. 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, December 7, 2019 10:21 PM

Those coaches at Weehawken Terminal are very likely NYC Westshore trains awaiting the evening rush.  O&W coaches awaiting disposal would have been stored off NYC property, and instead at O&W's Middletown shops.

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, December 7, 2019 9:12 PM

Yes big thanks to Mike for the Boynton Bicycle Rwy.  Quite a fascinating read. 

The NYO&W was liquidated in March of '57 so not long after that 'Twilight Zone' eerie picture. 

The railroad had running rights South from Cornwall, New York to Weehawken, New Jersey on the New York Central's West Shore. 

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, December 7, 2019 8:51 PM

You mean it actually worked?

Geez.  I guess it was a little too "nouveau" to catch on.  

How does Mike find these old documents for us?  I continue to be amazed.

Vince, your supposition that those O&W passenger cars are awaiting disposition is probably spot-on.  I believe O&W passenger service was dead by 1956.  They never did handle commuters to my knowledge, but had seasonal traffic to resorts in New York State.  Rail traffic to those destinations had just about evaporated by the 1950's.

Wayne

 

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, December 7, 2019 5:02 PM

Well all my Uncles were definitely overmodulated so you fit right in, but I cannot imagine you are quite as bad as those dudes were.

The point is the pic depicts the demise of the service and the trains are dead and I suppose stored, awaiting disposition. It is an eerie scene.

And now ... this!

The Boynton Bicycle Railway 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, December 7, 2019 4:40 PM

Well OK Mod-man, you  know that's the old NYC West Shore Terminal, and I  know it's the West Shore Terminal, but let's give Vince a little credit for finding it, shall we?  Most people not of the area wouldn't even have guessed at it's existance.

Anyway, NYC commuter service down the West Shore didn't have much longer to live, it was all over in 1959, although freight service continued for quite a while longer. 

By the way, Morning Sun's got a book out called "New York Central's West Shore Commuter Territory In Color" by Walter Zullig.  For $59.95 it's a cheap trip home for guys like you and I.  I've got it, very well done, runs right up to the CSX era.

https://morningsunbooks.com   Go to page two under "Hardcover Books"  to see it.  It's item #1641

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, December 7, 2019 3:59 PM

That is no more a "Port Imperial" NYO&W terminal than I'm your uncle.

Remember that NYO&W didn't actually reach Weehawken except on trackage rights, so it's only in Edgewater on tolerance from the West Shore (aka NYC).  Port Imperial refers to the much, much later use of this area by Arthur Imperatore (hence the 'imperial', get it?) for his trans-Hudson ferry service with small boats.  My service with a high-speed ex-Russian lake hydrofoil would have been markedly more interesting...

Those two steam engines are historically important.  As a quiz question, who recognized what the B.B.Ry stands for?

This was, in part, a remarkable way to convert a standard-gauge track into a double-track operating railroad by placing overhead guide rails above the running rails.  Theoretically the original track could still be used by regular train traffic when the 'special' stuff wasn't running. 

See if you can find pictures of the passenger cars; they were even more 'special' than the locomotives.  Many railroads had double-deck cars, but did they have them five feet wide?

On the Internet there is an infamous picture of one of those GP B units supposedly actually leading a train during the dark years of PC.  It goes along with that picture of the GP60B leading at Barstow in 2018: "One hell of a long hood!)  But let's be honest: still more visibility than from a Big Boy!

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, December 7, 2019 1:42 PM

Good stuff!

Photo one.  The poor old New York, Ontario & Western.  As the late Don Ball described it, "The 'road that could not live."  Once the anthracite mines they serviced played out in the late '20s it was all downhill, except for a brief spurt of prosperity during WW2.  Even the F3 diesels the prosperity paid for didn't help.

That Weehawken terminal is a pretty good indication of what was coming, the total abandonment in 1957, which sent a shock and a shudder through the rest of the railroad world.  

But, the "Old and Weary" still has it's fans to this day.  Take a look at this...

http://www.lionel.com/products/new-york-ontario-western-conventional-4-6-0-camelback-253-6-28755/  

I bought one of those Friday after Thanksgiving!  Whoo-hoo! 

Got it here, http://www.henningstrains.com   Well worth a visit if you're in the area, great train shop with great people!

Photo's two and three.  "Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot?"

Photo four.  Yep, units like that GP9B didn't last too long under Conrail.  They were pretty ruthless in eliminating the oddballs.

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