So a reader can do a detailed analysis of his or her own on the difference between the (admittadly blurrey) A New-Rochell Subway sign and an A Westchester Avenue sign, here posted at Westchester Avenue and Pelham Bay Park:
1. Current conditions are not necessarily the same with regard to commercial development in 1947. Ditto. other conditions.
2. In 1947, the A Westechester Avenuec Line. was operated exclusively by convertables, and not by home-built Third Avenue Lightweights until late in the year, when ex--Manhattan 101-200 series began replacing the convertables.
3. 324, in the photo I took, was always a Westchester car, and did not run on routes mainly serving The Bronx.
On Current maps Pelhamdale Ave if it was called that, dead ends at the high embankment of the former NYW&B Port Chester Branch along 1st Street. And ends there. Going SOUTH from the NYW&B -- Pelhamdale Avenue CROSSES what is called COLONIAL AVENUE which becomes SANFORD BLVD. just past, (left, west of), the Hutchinson River Parkway. Sanford Blvd continues due west and crosses over the NYW&B E.6th Street Station after Sanford crosses S. Fulton Ave. in Mt. Vernon.
Pelhamdale Avenue crosses COLONIAL AVE (aka Sanford Blvd further west) and heads at a S/E slight angle curve down to cross US 1 and soon the New England Thruway - and ends at a T intersection at Pelham Road right off the LI Sound and Glen Island Park.Colonial Avenue - if you drive thru it in Pelham in N/E direction from Sanford Blvd, - does not have any commercial real estate as seen that corner seen in your TARS "A" Route Car # 324 photo you wrote was at 163rd St & Westchester Avenue, Bronx. (very wrong there, Dave, as I proved via my cleaner edited version of that photo below:
And the slight "tilt" of the original photo you keep incessantly bringing up, has absolutely NO relevance or bearing what so ever as to determining the route or location of that curved track to the right -- or what it was for !!
The old TARS MAP shows, not in proper full near scale length (more as a greatly compressed length) or perspective -- we see a set of dotted lines coming off what is upon the TARS map then called Main Street -(Colonial Ave on present maps) - into a street called Drake and then down to PELAHM (Road?) and to Glen Island. That dotted line set means long ago gone, abandoned tracks. There IS NO Drake street, whatever, on the present maps !! My original purpose was to prove false, that your original and dogged assumption that the TARS # 324 "A" Route car was at E. 163rd & Westchester Ave, Bronx. In using current street roads by Google Inter-active Maps..."driving / moving" N/E along Sanford Blvd to Colonial Ave., which becomes Kings Highway and crosses under the New England Thruway and ends at MAIN STREET which is US 1 and not the MAIN STREET shown on the TARS map. SO either the TARS map is drawn sloppily or partially flawed in its depiction or whatever. !Follow the roads I named above -- as they appear on the current map (interactive Google version you can move around on is LINKED HERE -- https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pelhamdale+Ave+%26+1st+St,+Village+of+Pelham,+NY+10803/@40.8928721,-73.8434444,14z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c28d6d6d91dd7b:0x4e14c84980bbd783!8m2!3d40.9094435!4d-73.8078286?hl=en ----- and SEE what I am writing about. According to street views presently -- there was no indication of trolley tracks / line on Pelhamdale down to Glen Island -- or on Colonial Ave. to Kings Highway. And there was no where that your corner retail stores scene with the TARS 324 trolley, could be found on any of those current streets (Sandford, Colonial, Sanford or Pelhamdale) because they are all highly residential lined only. So exactly WHERE that TARS 324 Car photo is / was taken that you provided (and I edit-fixed from your poorer edited version) - God only knows ! regards - Joe F
I see have not yetv replied to Joseph Frank's claim that there never any streetcar tracks joining the main "A: New-Rochelle - Subwazy Line where Broadway becomes Pelhamdale Avenue in Oelham.
I based my analysis on cojmparing the ERA's 1945 Yonkers-and-adjacent-areas Third Avenue Trackmap, and a street map of the areas. By the time the map was prepared, the single diverging track was already disused, ditto in my 1947 photo. This track had already lost its wire, and paving-over removed any evidence of a former single-track streetcar line.
Again, you are absolutely correct. the proof is the direction of 85th Street one-way street sign in those photos that show it, since the street is.westbound Such evidence trumps my memory, despte my having been in the location possibly a thousand times, using the 84th Street 3rd Avenue Elevated station, and the Third Avenue Transit "T" as well as put-in "Ks." But seldom, if ever, after 1949.
My parents and I also frequented two excelent restaurants (one may have been Kosher) east of 3rd on 86th.
Please post the photo with the elevated train with the clock, both here and on one on Third Avenre Elevated threads. (photo you sent, with now some mild editin)
Dave -
This photo above is looking NORTH from the N/W corner of E. 85th Street along the downtown local track of the El along the west side of 3rd Avenue. Likely around 1945-1947 period. The CLOCK at left - long gone since 1962 when it and the entire block from 85th to 86th streets was demolished to clear way for the Park Lane Towers hi-rise luxury apartments ( opening scenes of the TV show "The Jeffersons" ). Seen is the BECK SHOE store sign on a building just above E. 86th Street towards E.87th St. The station in distance is the Downtown E. 89th Street El Station. The southbound TARS trolley is stopped by the N/W corner of 3rd & E.85th St. This section of the El from just below E. 76th St station thru to E.84th St Station and north to the 99th St yards -- was built in 1878 new and with its lattice girder fabricated center track as seen in the photo. The El by time of this photo was about 65 years old !
The famous "Yorkville Clock" originating from 1898 was at time of above photo, and still is ACROSS the avenue at the East side of 3rd Ave --here is a photo of it below as restored some years ago -- view looking N/W towards E. 85th St along 3rd Ave ---------- Regards - joe F
Here is the photo of 633 as a conduit cae at 85th Street:
Hello Dave
The yorkville clock on east side of 3rd Ave between E. 84th & E.85th Streets is still there -- It was removed 10 or so years ago and completely and beautifully restored, and functioning again, and replaced back on the site it stood. However, its top mopunted 3 pawnbroker balls were removed and never replaced as the pawn show (Sterns) has been gone since the 1970's. Here BELOW is a 2011 view of the clock looking north due west along 3rd Ave, topwards the NW corner of E. 85th St & 3rd Ave (with the hi-rise) (Joe F)
So far, photo of 130 at 85th appears missing, but I had also scanned one of 633, moved from the 59th "X' to the "T" in November 1946, before becoming a pole car for The Bronx in April 1947. I know it's your neighbiorhood becase of the beautiful clock on the west sidewalk. Is it still there?
Glad to help out. Am interested in seeing that other photo that is in the E. 85th St Area of the 3rd Ave EL --- my hometown area when growing up. regards - Joe F
You are ciorrect. I posted a wrong photo. I'll try to find the right one.
Too much in a hurry because iof very limited time to allow access to Imgur.
The photo is at vthe 65th Street carhouse.
Dave -- this is NOT 3rd Avenue at or near E. 85th Street at all !! . I grew up by the El in that area and street (the E.85th St area) location. Check your photos again -- to see if you can ascertain the exact location. ALSO NOTE -- the curving streetcar track in the bottom forground of the photo where it branches off the 3rd Ave streetcar mainline tracks. That would be a clue. Most likely I believe that is the uptown EL's E. 67th Street Local Station just a block above the TARS E. 65th-66th Street carbarn area ! (Joe F)
The same streetcar prior to its conversion from conduit to trollet polr, here at Third Avenue and East 66th Street. March, 1947, last month of the "T" beforer busses. Bhf fne track here to the north continued in use through June for "K" and 125th "X" that put-out and pull-in that would carry passengers.
"
This photo (161st St) is a better re-edit job than the original posted one --- good job ! Joe F
A previously-posted photo here corrected. Former Manhattan--conduit 130, now with poles on the 16st Street Crosstown at Yankee Stadium, Autumn 1947. One year earlier would have been a cionvertable, One year later, a bus.
Thanks Dave -- and yes, you are likely correct -- that photo may have been taken from the south side high Putnam Getty Branch RR Stone Abutment that likely matched the one seen across the Avenue -(top center of photo in the woods) - it may have still been there at that time (1947-49 or so) but was removed and the area (land) of the Putnam RR R-o-W high embankment was excavated to street level and the flat land re-developed with houses and commercial real estate. Regards - Joe F
Joe Frank is resposible for the correction to the caption of the photo in the previous posting. (Not Park Avenue)
McLean Avenue, where it passed under the Mew York Central Putnam Division Getty's Square Branch, probably photographed from one of the abutments of the removed single-track (with third rail) bridge. The McLean Avenue Line, also shown in previous photos, connected Yonkers withb the Jerome Avenue - Woodlawn Subway Terminal.:
Former Manhattan conduit 1936-built 121. with poles for Bronx oprtation in February 1947, , here on a fan-trip, I think in New Rochelle (but can possibly be corrected):
Two regular cars on Yonkers' Park Avenu, and one at the northern terminal of thev line. But 384 ran on Ogden Avenue, The Bronx, before that line was bussed, and then on other Bronx lines, before moving to Yonkers. Earlier pictures on this thread illustrate this.
Another view of fan-trip 357 at Broadway and West 242nd Street: I was 16.
One loose matter needs to cleared up. Yes, I was 15 when Manhattan streetcar service ended, except for some intrusions of Bronx lines that lasted into 1948, but I had just received my first Leica camera, and used it extensively on streetcars and trains. Unless I specifically state otherwise, all photographs on this thread were taken by me, except that some very few photographs were taken of existing photographs on carhouse office walls, 551 in the Gardner Avenue Yard and any of 555 in exposed finished aluminum. I had begun photographing streetcars and trains even earlier, with borrowed equipment. See the photo of Huffliner 600 earlier on this thread.
I do not know abour Russ; about his view regarding my editing. He is a good friend and I have not heard frion him. Regarding Nate, so far I've received only positive comments about any editing I've done on any photos he has sent me.
That does not mean I will stop trying to do a better job in the future, and I am certain Richard Allman will help me.
Regarding column basis. Note that pavement must be relatively level. but the supporting rock, and most of Manhattan is on rock if my memory is correct, is certainly not always level. This means that often the column supporting an elevated structure does not actually have a real base above the pavement, only what really is only a protecting structure, with the real base below grade.
Hello again Dave
Thats a great photo of the 3 TARS CARS lined up at about W. 243rd Street on broadway, Bronx !! Those are the type cars I remember riding with my Uncle on the #7 Yonkers Ave. TARS line in 1951-52 before that line was ended. The IRT (# 1 & 3 trains today) EL Terminal Station at W.242nd Street is in background ! NOTE that back then -- the left hand stairway is in its original 1904-built position close to its station house. Many years later the (Broadway) Avenue was widened along its east (left) side and the stairway was moved and relocated further east about 20 + feet eastward onto the new sidewalk of the widened lanes. aAlong with a new covered extension walkway-bridge from the station house to its new location. And remains that way today !
As far as Nate and Russ -- they have both agreed with me about the edits issues by emails ... and Nate daily by phone conversations. And I told them directly to TELL YOU by email, and don't just tell me and agree solely with me. I said that to a few others following this. Likely they see your continued "mode of denial" demeanor you present to me on this "editing" issue.
regards - Joe F
Hello again Dave !
Thanks much for that new information and image - seems you were able to cobble the El column original footing from the negative which your original edits did not. Thus I had no actual detail reference point to work with on my edit - and replicated the large rounded footing style see across the Avenue along the east side of 3rd Ave.
I did manage to correct my edit photo showing the flater low-boy column footing base. See BELOW:
In my having grown up and lived along that El until it was demolished -- and for many years thereafter -- I was keenly aware back then of oddities of the El's construction, including the 2 styles of column bases. The LOWER base style was NOT the result of any roadway repaving. The Avenue was paved with streetcar tracks and cobblestones from the beginning of the El in 1876-78 construction. And never repaved thereafter -- exception being thin coats of blacktop asphalt paving patches here and there over the (after Nov. 1947) abandoned TARS tracks and cobblestones.
Here BELOW is a photo in my immediate neighborhood by friend Lothar Stelter-- I saw this scene countless times then -- looking south from E. 83rd Street along the nearly demolished EL in Nov. 1955. Note the two column base types on the two right side close columns !
I gave you the basic reasons why many people don't want to get involved in something that will possibly bring agita to them by the person they try to help ! For people like them its better to "see nothing, say nothing, hear nothing, and do nothing" and "saw wood and say nothing" (old sayings).
Best Regrds - Joe F
I must point out that the stantion base in your improved vesion is not the same as that in my badly-scratched original. Not all Third Avenue stantion bases ended up the same, mostly becaose of repaving.
My posting the original scan here is an exception to the rule. I have very good reasons not to diustribute original scans. Thank you.
The Yonkers fan-trip picture is not sharp, probably because of camera motion due to a distraction while taking the picture. Editing consisted of cropping to remove edge blemishes of unimpofrtant data and some darkening of the sky.
Russ and Nate are very good friends, and if they wished me to bow to all your demands instead of choosing which of your comments are truly helpful, which I do my best to implement, I'm sure they would tell me.
Anyway, here is what you requested and my attempt to get meaningful stantion base data from a badly scratched negative, and the start of a 1948 Yonkers Fan-trip.
I am the only one who constructively commented because I have a lifetime of working professionally in photography and now 20 years of computer skills....documented quite well and known. I even build websites using, writing, HTML code to a blank screen to completely finished pages.
The "white squares" you refer to were NEVER at all in any of my edits on my photo-edited version of that TARS 324 car -- and I did not even see them in your own edits of that same photo. And no one else I shared those Your and my versions) photos with saw them ! SO I really don't know what you are talking about. Show those "white squares" to us here !!
I am the only one commenting so far as - well, someone has to finally step up to the plate and have the integrity to do so -- solely to help and inform you. And I got an email from someone YOU know well, stating same and thanking me.
Most people dont have the integrity or fortitude to confront people who really need constructive advice or guidance, or as in this case, the issue at hand . Nate and I email and phone talk regularly, and so does Russ email me - and we have discussed your edits-issue with them in my favor of my editing skills. And a few others have emailed me in support of my comments and observations on this issue. Its like trying to get witnesses to a crime they actually saw to come forward and get involved --- and usually, generally, very few to NONE come forward, or want to "get involved" -- and yes, I was in law enforcement.
Most people don't WANT to get involved to offer help or advice and then chance to get hissy fits from the person they try to help. Not worth it. You have heard of the SILENT MAJORITY in politics. No one really wants to expose or put themselves or name out in the fore-front to complain about issues publically in media -- except solely to complain privately about issues to each other when socializing. But get that large majority really PO's, and - well, thats how President Trump got elected.
Dave --Here BELOW is that original photo under the EL exactly as you posted and exactly as you edited it --
AND - here BELOW is my FIX of that TARS Trolley under 3rd Ave EL photo -- This is a 2nd edit-version BELOW that I did more intensive edit-work on ... especially the left forward EL column (its base I added and its top arch right curve rebuilt) and more work on the structure. The neg was scratched and had dings and "white-washed out" patches. -- and I removed much of them. I also lightened the image a bit to remove all of the darkness. My final result BELOW:
So as you and all know, click each image to get enlarged view and put their tabs next to each other in the tabs bar at screen top. Then you can flip back and forth to each image to compare.
Perhaps you will finally come to see solely how and why I am trying to help you, show you, etc. With the great and historic photos you have collected (and took) over 75 or so years -- why not you show them in the BEST VISUAL way you can without, umm, unintentionally edit-defacing them ! Per your version of the two photos above here to support that comment.
Best Regards - Joe F
THe white squares are now gone ftom your version of my version, THank you, Or possibly a computer was playing tricks on me.
The point is that anyone can see the tilt in your version, but you needed to ouitline in red the tiny wiskers that the jpg format often causes on trolley wire.
Regarding the photo under the Third Avenue Elevated, I'll find the original scan and also follow your suggestion regarding the column base.
Joe, tilts don't bother you and all your many friends. But tilted photos bother me and, for most part poated on these theads, they are my photos. And not once has Nate ever complained to me about any changes I've made to photos he has sent me. You are the only complainer. Rich Allman never ever complains but does, on occasion, give me a further-improved version or suggests further improvement on my part, and I follow his advice.
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