Dave -- be aware that 2 of those sites with the urls' you mentioned are PAY WALL SITES -- they want you to subscribe and buy their newspapers in order to see anything on line they offer.
At 90+ my memory may not be perfect. I believe I quickly was told or realized the Main St. P:elhsam photo couldv not br in The Bronx and was the first to research, via the ERA track-map, the correct location. Joe. you must have seen the Westchester Avenue (Bronx) location attribution during the short time that the error existed. I never suggested south Mt. Vernon. I use the Forum to share my very young days' memories with others and try to refrain from criticizing others.
Thank you for constructive help.
I don't blame you in any way for the problems in receiving email from you. For example, a very close friend, one who truly saved my life at one point, has sent URLs on material in the New York Times and the New Yorker on NYC's Geffin Hall, which I had worked to assist Columbia U. Professor Cyril Harris with a sound system design to complemant and fit his room-acoustics and noise control designs, some 50 years ago. (Dr. Harris had a "Profile" in the New Yorker. titled "The Quiet Man.") So, of couse I was interested in how the new modifications turned out. But the server won't let me pull up those articles.
Thank you also Dave -- glad to have solved the two clock mystery and their locations for you. Its been 70 + years now! Agreed, the west side of avenue clock at E. 85 St was far more ornate and had a bigger clock-face-head area. Too bad it was trashed with the block demolition in 1963. But hey, I wasn't much focusing intently on those clocks way back then -- just the stores & shops, the EL and my EL Station, and the EL trains. All of which I used and frequented ! The 2 clocks were like the lamp posts, traffic signal posts, street signs, -- just street furniture !
Thanks. Great job. Keep it up.
Dave -- I explained IN DETAIL to you - in private email and HERE also about this "other" clock. Again, this clock was removed, destroyed when the entire block was torn down (E.85th north to E.86th Sts.) around 1963-4, for construction of the huge Park Lane Towers (aka Jeffersons TV Show Building !) opened in 1967. The "Yorkville Clock" got so named in the late 1970's because it was the ONLY remaining Victorian era street clock on 3rd Ave in Yorkville section after 1963. Owned by Sterns Jewelers & Pawn Shop (whom I knew back then) and when they sold their property, new owners neglected the clock which finally ceased to operate mechanically. In 1980's I think -- a movement developed to save and restore the clock -- which took place. It was removed to Long Island, completely restored and re-installed on its base on the sidewalk a year or so later. Christened the Yorkville Clock.
OK -- below is a 1953 aerial photo I have in the area where I lived and the EL and where the BOTH Clocks existed. (E. 84 & E.85th Streets area) . On that aerial photo I marked the location of BOTH clocks along the EL on 3rd Ave, marked the E. 84th St EL Station, marked my own home (apartment house) and etc. This may be better able to inform you. Hope so ! regards - Joe F
Dave - I have been over this ad- infinatum with you on my previous msg reply to you on this matter. -- re: the ERA TARS Map. YOU took (or claim to ??) that photo of Trolley 324 at Mount Vernon (that you first claimed, totally wrong, as I proved then, was in the Bronx, E.163rd St & Westchester Ave!!) --- so YOU do your own research to find out WHERE you stood at, and where, that intersection is (with the stores, etc) on the Mount Vernon "A" Trolley TARS Route. The Map actual "mileage and footage" format is severely "compressed" to conserve paper space for compact illustration purposes. As far as what exists NOW vs: then in the area of that route --- obviously ALL vestigates of the trolley route and tracks are long gone -- so the ERA map is the only clue to its reality. Also some of the street names have been changed since the era the map version depicts long ago. There is a commercial area along that route (if you do the google maps "drive along" tedious process for the whole route --- that could be where the corner stores once were and are gone now, replaced with new "modern" structures. I don't know. If you took that photo, then YOU were there I expect back then. You research its location ! Sorry, but I have more important matters to attend to, otherwise.
Dave -- "improvement"?? Look at the distortion (looks like mud or/ and grass) at the upper right corner where clearly and sharply seen "before" improvements -- are the visible track catwalk ties, planking and railing. Looks like "grass" growing there now !!! BELOW is your (or that same) photo BEFORE your touted new editing -- look at top right corner - - also signs are sharper and more detailed and have more definition contrast
Richard Allman's improvement on my straightened 187 on Westchester Avenue photo:
deleted
And if Richard Allmasn and/or I do any editing, I'll ask the photographer for permission to use the edited version.
OK Agreed. My real purpose has been to revive the photos I took as a youngster and share them, and from now on only exceptionally with the specific request of the original photographer ("You can share this photo I took if you wish, David" --- typical, interpreted my me as a request to share--- will I post someone else's photograph.
Dave: I don't feel like going through seven pages of a photo-heavy thread to determine the provenance of every photo you've posted. The responsibility to adhere to copyright falls on the person posting the photo. You know if you shot a photo or not. If you didn't, get permission from the original photographer or their inheritors, or don't post it. Even if it's already been posted here or elsewhere.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
To help Joe Frank or anyone eklse to detail all the changes from 1945 to now for the area arounf . I've replaced the entire Yonkers track map, which, if my memory is ciorrect, was given out as a "freebe" on a fan-trtip. with an enlargement of just the area covered by the New Rochelle - Subway A Line.
The ERA sold (I'll check to see if still available) a trackmap of the entire system in 1945.
Joe: I rode the A Line through Pelham many times, about 50, trips to the model railroad at the old beautiful Pelham Manor station, trips by myself or with John Stern, and fan-trips. The route through Pelham was essentially on residential streets, with a few scattered convenience stores and possibly one gas station. There was no "commercial district" in the sense that Mount Vernon and New Rochelle have, The view agrees with my memory.
The disagreement between the ERA map and the results of your research may be entirely the result of changes over time.
And if the abandonment-of-use track had not still physically been in place, it probably would not have been shown on the map. There were other local lines that connected to the "A" and that were not shown on the map, such as the Pelham Manor - Pelham Station H Line of Fontain Fox fame, because their tracks were removed.
May I ask you to "go back to the drawing board?"
And do the necessary research to tell us what the actoal changes were, instead of just labeling tne ERA map innacurate? Removal of that corner store complex and replacement by housing or parkland may be one.
I remember only one clock, but it is your neighborhood. Do both clocks still exist?
Dave -- I private emailed you a "closeup" cropped version of original photo of the clock and it has the top single ball (of 3 balls) cut off in the cropping. The "Yorkville" CLOCK LOCATION was the focus, the MAIN point - NOT the EL, the scene, nor the train! The clock was the subject-reason for sending you that cropped photo.
I have the full frame version of that photo with quite a lot more visible in the scene...including the original top 3 balls on the clock! The original point IN MY PRIVATE EMAIL to you - was to heads-up inform you that the so called "Yorkville" clock (as it has been called since the 1970's) was NOT the clock seen - and you referenced - in your 1947 or so photo looking N. to the N/W corner of E. 85th Street, on WEST side of 3rd Ave (and along the downtown track side of the EL) -- But infact was the clock ACROSS THE AVENUE -- just SOUTH of E. 85th Street on the EAST side of 3rd Avenue, along the UPTOWN track side. That photo (my slightly zoomed in version I sent you) had the clock and a train in view.
Then you want to "improve" the photo I sent you and post it on this forum... originally as stated "received from Joseph Frank" by you. Then you edited it and removed my name as provider.... and reposted it -- and then you had to repost it AGAIN as edited "more lifelike" by Mr. Allman.... (well, heh, he edit-artwork added the missing top ball, nicely done as such) However, Allman made the added-in top ball too tall-large and its not round-shaped like the lower 2 balls, as it should be.
The clouds, and details you say on there on the edited version, are ALSO on MY emailed original copy -- and store signs are crisper, sharper and easier to read on mine. All Alman did was to LIGHTEN (fade) the contrast a bit but did not improve any sharpness or MUDC (the train) details -- they are all seen in my original.
You have long had this mental fetish to constantly want to change, or "improve" photos, yours, anyone's, that you (or others) post here --- and you are the only on I ever encounted on many forums or anywhere that continually insists on having to, wanting to, needing to, do that.
If I had not sent you that photo by email, you would never have seen it or known of nor been aware of it. I did NOT give permission (but did not deny as such) for you to take it from my email and use it, change it, edit it, or post it. But you did anyway -- and edited it 2x on this forum. And I warned you here in print previously times to NOT tamper with my photos or any photos I share with you from my archives collection. As I would expect with this photo I shared with you.
Editor Steve is correct in his comments - and I agree with him -- and now you want to upstart and challenge him and his instructions. Dave -- edit YOUR OWN photos you took (or of your collection) --- but leave alone photos posted here by myself and other members. And not be tampering with them...and in some cases, make them worse ! As has been documented here elsewhere.
Steve: Is there any reason why Joe Frank cannot start his own thread on this Forum to display his own collection, to the extent where possible copyright is not violated? But, of course, contributions from others showing Third Avenue Lightweights on this thread, Joe's or anyone else, that meet Steve's requirements, are always most welcome.
The vast, very vast, number of photos on this thread were taken by me. Most of the few others, such as those of 555 in unpasinted aluminum and 551 at Gardner Avenue, were official Third Avenue Railway photos, distributed for publicity purposes. Some may have been used in copyrighted books, but that does not make them copyrighted photos. Some I obtained as a teenager before they were used in any books.
Steve: Are there specific photos where a complaint is important enough that you wish me to use the edit button for photos that I posted, and only I posted, to remove them? I have assumed that photos sent me, without specific instructions regarding this issue, are in the public domain already. Most photos I receive have specific instructions one way or the other. In the future, I'll assume they are not in the public domain if they arrive without instructions.
Regarding those photos that are in the public domain, many are faded, torn, and/or badly tilted. Don't I have the right to fix them before posting?
Joe, the pawnbroker symbol has three balls, not two. So restoration work on the photo included the use of available evidence as to what the scene actually looked like. Details of the MUDC 6-car elevated train are more visible, the sky's clouds are actually seen, signs more readible, and the photo, except possibly for the restoration of the top ball, is certainly closer to what the original photo was before a faded version was available in a screen-shot or Internet posting.
But if Steve wishes me to remove any photo, I will.
I regard all my postings as a service, not any attempt to demonstrate skills superior than others. There is stiil a lot of old stuff of mine to be scanned, and that is what I'll spend my time and money on addressing henceforth.
I have received a complaint about possible copyright issues in this thread. While some of the photos I see here may be in the public domain, if there is doubt, don't post it here without obtaining permission from the copyright holder. The copyright holder is the photographer or their heirs; having an original photo or slide in your collection does not make it your photo. Unless you are the original photographer or have permission of the photographer, don't post them here. And certainly don't copy, alter, and repost them without that permission, either. Thank you.
Hi Dave---
That "lost" photo you just posted -- yes -- I saw that scene countless times but with STS Red & Cream MACK buses instead of the trolleys. My old neighborhood. BUT -- the corner sign is for EAST 86th STREET (not 85th St as you wrote). Nostalgic photo for me -- I know all the stores in that scene -(everything seen is gone presently) - which IS looking south along EAST sidewalk line of 3rd Avenue along the EL -- across wide East 86th Street -- the wide crosstown east / west main street thru Yorkville with all the European & German restaurants, dance halls, small specialty meat and bake and other shops, etc. . Note the cheap temporary plywood black & white painted "safety squares" - a crude early attempt to mark and make more visible, EL pillars in the middle of crosstown streets. Later the columns themselves were stencil-painted uniformly with black & white bands on the steelwork. Here is LINK to image of same scene along East sidewalk in present times! --- (COPY & PASTE the url) --- https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7787931,-73.9538752,3a,90y,227.38h,92.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7BCV3Il-CfzuCRSM8Cz2fQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
Hello Dave --- I unraveled the mystery ! Of course you are correct about removing photos of someone else. However, I found out HOW you got the photo -- I EMAILED it to you Sept. 27th -- from my Archive collection. Thus, sorry - and my error, as I DID NOT post it originally here at this forum....my error. Thus it CAME FROM ME regardless ---from no where else. Doesn't matter if I took it, if I was given a copy by the photographer, or whatever. I have over 850000 photos in my archive - and over 500000 color slides --- many my own, many from unknown sources thru the past 5 + decades. well, again, at least the (your and Allman) edits were pretty good I must say --- but WHY -- what was wrong with my original I show BELOW ? Thats' all !
Here is our joint effort to make the clock photo as true to life as any black-and-white can be. And iI found the lost photo that I wanted to post when I posted a 65th and 3rd by mistake. The corner sign here is for East 85th Street, Joe's neighborhood, and we see the uptown 84th Street Station (Corrction, 86th):
Dave--- Sorry !! I have deleted and re-written this message -- The mix-up was that My Sept. 26th message to you was a reply to you about the OTHER clock in YOUR photo view north along the EL on WEST side of 3rd Ave. at E. 85th Street. And that was what and why I also posted the color photo of the Yorkville clock. I apologize for the mis-understanding and my now removed and re-written comments. The process of following posts and threads in this forum is archaic at best -- and can cause confusion. Because there is no visual direct attached connection to the original post a person is replying to !! However, the 3rd Ave El B&W photo I refer to with the original Yorkville Clock is a somewhat cropped version of the original in my COLLECTION for decades and not from the net. I EMAILED you my cropped version of the original photo - and then it gets replaced by two edited versions - one from you and one from Allman. Actually, they are not bad either ! Here is the ORIGINAL photo from my webpage archive site that I sent you by email -- but I only see your edited & Allman edited versions. And not the one I sent that you originally posted in a message and stated was from "Joseph Frank" -- the original from me as shown below;
Dave -- Again, sorry - I deleted and re-wrote this message herein. I posted the photo (on a new reply) from my collection that you had for the basis of your and Allman's edits. As such, both edits were not bad at all --- but why edit at all !
Perhaps I sent that B&W photo your way via private email instead - I will check.
(I CHECKED, and yes, I did email it your way)
regards - Joe F
Just a reminder that 187 was originally a conduit car, but did spend much of its operating time under an elevated structure, but on Third Avenue, and not Westchester Avenue. Why no "T"? sign on the dash? Probably painted over jusxt before receiving poles for servikce in The Bronx, then yanked from that process to briefly serve on the 125th Street Crossatown, and no removable sign was availabl,e at the moment.
A repeat poosting from the first page of this thread.
And here is Richard Allman's superb realization of the Third Avenue and 85th Street clock photograph:
Herewith
Thanks. There were five 301s that did regularly handle a primarily Bronx route, the Ogden Avenue Line that had both its 155th Street and Amsterdam Avenue and 181st and Broadway Terminals in Manhattan, but 324 was never one of them. And occasionaslly one of the "O" cars would stray to one of the other Bronx lines before being moved to be based primarily at the Foot-of-Main-Street, Yonkers, Carhouse, to assist getting convertables replaced with lightweights on the Mt. Vernon - 229th St. White Plains Avenue (Road) "B" line.
Then there were 391 - 400, which were built as conduit-only cars, and ran on Manhattan's "T," "K," and in Spring 1947 on 125th "X." These got poles, Summer 1947, and some did run The Bronx routes before moving to Yonkers in Spring and Summer 1948.
Here is 381, one of the Ogden Avenue cars, northbound at the north end of Ogden Avenue and the east end of Washington Bridge, leading to West 181st Street Manhattan
And I do hope to correct the tilt without losing sharpness.
Great Photo dave - and no really one cares about the very slight tilt -- but the SHARPNESS is the most important detail!! Its looking due N/E on Westchester Avenue near Bergen Avenue - and the RKO Royal Theater I well remember from the 1950's & 60's until later closed down due to crime. McCrorys at left is a 5&10 store which goes left to the corner of 3rd Ave & Westchester Avenue where this 3 block short "connector" 2-track El which connects from the IRT Subway West Farms El (2 blocks to right) with the Bronx 3rd Ave EL at E.150th Street / Westchester Avenue Junction 1/2 block left, west ...just above the 3rd Ave EL's E. 149th Street express station. the trolley will pass along to the left, west, under the EL, cross that switch there, stop, unload and reload new passengers, and take the swich track seen for the trolley's reverse move run to get to the uptown / outbound track.
Here is one of the ex-Manhattan cars that replaced the convertables on Westchester Avenue. But I failed to remove the tilt here, and thus preserved the sharpness. There is no way you can fit Westchester Avenue into the blurred image of the A sign on 324. Only New Rochelle - Subway fits 324's sign
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