Third Avenue Lightweight Streetcars

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Third Avenue Lightweight Streetcars
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 19, 2017 12:43 AM

Apparently a thread by this name was removed from the Trains Transit thread possibly because it did not reflect anything related to current operations, so I am starting a new one here.  Post from south at City Hall Park Row to Marble Hill for conduit operations, and then hope to post Bronx and Westchester wire opeations.  209 St - 225 St. B'way had both so Bronx cars could access Kingsbridge car house.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, October 19, 2017 6:50 PM

Who cares if it doesn't reflect current operations?  Those old photos are cool!  Sometimes I think the folks over at "Trains" take this stuff WAY too seriously!

Thanks for posting them David!

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 20, 2017 7:55 AM

My photo of the 65th St. 3rd Ave. main workshop and car house is from a very scratched negative. I did not think the defects would show up as clearly as they have, so I've gone to work on it, with some improvement.  May be able to do more, but it does take time.  Here is a progress report.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, October 21, 2017 9:04 AM

Nice clean-up job!  Remember the old saying, "The best is the enemy of the good?"

Sometimes just have to go with what's available.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, October 21, 2017 2:49 PM

Here is about as good as I can do within a reasonable amount time.  After that we will go north in Manhattan, mostly conduit cars, all the way to Marble Hill 225th St., nprthern end of conduit.  Details will wait until the edit button is restored.  Future postings will handle The Bronx, including some far south of 225, and then eventually Yonkers and Mt. Vernon.

But converables now have their own thread.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 23, 2017 8:44 AM

More to come

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Posted by wanswheel on Monday, October 23, 2017 12:19 PM
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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 8:53 AM

Truthfuly, I did not know the Marx Bros. performed there.  I thought they performed in one or more Manhattan venues for the NY area.

Ex-Ogden Avneue car replacing convertable on "C" Bronx-and Van Courtland, on B'way at 238th.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 9:57 AM

IMAGE

An unuaual photo from the Shore Line Trolley Museum Journal showing Brooklyn early double-truck hand-braked 1792 (still with its work-car sand-car number) on its way to East Haven CT followed by a Subway (241 & Wh. Pl. Rd/Av) - New Rochelle "A' car of the 301-400 series that were the regulars untl buses came in late 1950, shortly after the photo was taken.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 30, 2017 7:59 AM

Looking East at West FArms Square, a lighweight bumped by buses from the "O" Ogden Avenue line, replaces a convertable on the "C" Bronx and Van Courtland Parks line, here discharging passengers before proceeding to the crossover on E.177the to change ends.

 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Monday, October 30, 2017 9:09 PM

Dave, the last post had no photo.  The post before that had a link to a photo, but it required a password.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 2:49 AM

Here are both photos:

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 2:56 AM

One photo was an error, already on the Convertable thread. 

correct two photos are:

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Posted by MidlandMike on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 8:54 PM

daveklepper

Here are both photos:

 

What are we looking at in the bottom photo?

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 2:40 AM

West Farms Square looking west.  The lightweigh in the middle track is a gap-filler car, since the "T" Tremont Avenue line runs through.  The "v" Williams Bridge line will reverse here, use the crossover, and run on the east side of Bronx Park to Gun Hill Road and White Plains Avenue (Road according the IRT, but not the street sign!).  Curve-sided convertables were very rare, mostly scrapped, at the time in Autumn 1947, when this photo was taken.  Also, new paint job on 626, probably received when it got its trolley poles earlier that year after transfer from the bussed Manhattan Lines, has the front bottom skirt painted black instead of the regular deep red-maroon as on 676 which alway was a Bronx pole car.   Note the standard IRT Low-V cars on the structure in the background.  West Farms Square, Boston Road, Southern Boulevard, 177th Street, Tremont Avenue, was served by the "B, C, S, T, V," and "Z".  West Farms Car House was a few block south and west on Boston Road.  Below is a lightweight 388 dischargin all passengers, transfered from Ogden Avenue to the "C" after "O" Ogden, "U" University, and "Z" 180th Street were bussed in March 1947.  The convertable thread has "C" reversing on the crossover just east of the Square on E. 177th St.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 09, 2017 12:34 AM

Now for some Yonkers lines pictures, starting at the end of the Broadway subway line at 242nd sTreet, Van Courtland Park.  The 1, 2, lines and their short-turn 3 reversed here, while the C from West Farms Square ran through to 262nd Street, Yonkers City Line.

On Warburton Avenue.  Note Nachod signal

Foot of Main Street, Near NY Central Sta.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 09, 2017 3:55 AM

End of then usable track on Neperhan Avenue, fan trip with one 101-class car, oriignally a conduit car in Manhattan, and one 301-class car, always a Yonkers car.  plus  regular service line 5 car.

On the service track between the 5 Neperhan Avenue and the 6 Tuckaho Rd lines at the crossing with an industry branch of he Central's Putnam Division.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Thursday, November 09, 2017 8:50 PM

Would NY Transit cars run thru into Yonkers, or were they two seperate systems?

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, November 10, 2017 1:57 AM

The systems were privately owned, and for most of the streetcar history, the Third Avenue Railway System, after 1939 the Third Avenue Transit System, was the real owner of the Yonkers, Bronx, and its Manahattan streetcar lines.  The Park Avenue "2," and the Warbirton Avenue "1" were extended south to meet the IRT at West 242nd Street, Broadway, with the South Broadway line that ran north only to Gettys Square retained as the "3," really a short-turn for the "1" and "2."  They crossed into The Bronx at the city line, W. 262nd Street, also the north end of Van Courtland Park.

The "4," McClean Avenue, also ran into The Bronx, connecting with the north end of the Jerome Avenue IRT at Woodlawn Road.  Its history is more complex. At one time it crossed Central Avenue, the extension of Jerome Avenue all the way up to White Plains, and turned south on Webster Avenue to run to the north end of the Third Avenue Elevated at Bedford Park, Treemont Avenue.  There was also the Jerome Avenue streetcar line, north end at Yonkers Race Track, Yonkers Avenue, that ran south, crossing into The Bronx and continiung south to 161st, then running east over the McCoombs Dam Bridge, with the Ogden Avenue and 161st Street Bronx crosstown to 155th and 8th connecting with the 9th Avenue elevated, later all extended to Amsterdam and 155th.  With some abandonments, the "4" took its final form.

The "5" and "6" and "8"" and "9" were Yonkers-only lines.  The "7" was a major east-west line running to the Mount Vernon New Haven RR Sta. and connecting with "A" New Rochelle line.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, November 10, 2017 8:10 AM

In addition to the 1, 2, 3, and 4 lines from Yonkers entering The Bronx, the A line from the New Rochelle New Haven Station and the B line from the New Haven Mount Vernon Station entered The Bronx at East 261st Street and connected with the White Plains Avenue (Road on IRT subway signs) subway lines at East 241st Street.  For some reason the B, but the A, continiued south to East 229th Street. 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Friday, November 10, 2017 9:49 PM

daveklepper

...

The "4," McClean Avenue, also ran into The Bronx, connecting with the north end of the Jerome Avenue IRT at Woodlawn Road.  Its history is more complex. At one time it crossed Central Avenue, the extension of Jerome Avenue all the way up to White Plains, and turned south on Webster Avenue to run to the north end of the Third Avenue Elevated at Bedford Park, Treemont Avenue.  ...

 

Did a trolley run all the way up to White Plains?

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, November 11, 2017 12:52 PM

I believe there was a gap that was not filled.  The 1 line did run further into downtown Hastings, and there was an isolated Third Avenue-run Tarrrytown - White Plains line.   Here is a map of the system as I renenber it 1940 to the end of Bronx lines in 1948 and start of Westchester abandonments in 1950 or 1951.  As long as Yonkers lines and Westechester lines ran, they did continue to enter The Bronx to the subway line terminals, with the B even continuing further south to 229th Street.

This is from memory, so there may be errors.

 

I should note that with the exception of the Sedgewick Avenue line in The Bronx, which in my day was a one-car every-half-hour semi-shuttle, all single-track operations of Third Avenue were in Yonkers during this period.  The 8 on Riverdale Avenue used two cars with a passing siding midway.  The 9 Elm & Walnut used one car, with a steep grade, and the only derailer on the system.  Going back downtown on Walnut just after leaving the outer terminal, the operator had to come to full stop and key the derailer off to continue downhill.

Also, the only track on the entire Third Avenue system that was not in pavement (after ending their operations on the Queensboro and Manhattan Bridges where track was shared with othe companies, long before my time)  was on the outer end of the 5 Neperhan Avenue line.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, November 11, 2017 9:45 PM

Thanks.  You also answred my next question, which was to confirm the Tarrytown-White Plains line.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Friday, November 17, 2017 10:24 PM

I found out that in addition to the NH and NYW&B between New Rochelle and Port Chester, there was also a trolley.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_and_Stamford_Railway

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, November 18, 2017 12:21 PM

Yes, and it did run all the way from New Rochelle to Stamford.  Third Avenue actually owned the rack as far as Rye, with a local line New Rochelle RR Station to to Rye Beach.  (Rye also had a NYW&B stop, sorry I left that out, New Rochelle, Larchmont, Memaroneck, Harrison, Rye, Portchester. Do I have the order correct?)  Of course I can check Metro-North timetable on-line.)  The New York and Stamford was a real interurban, not just a cross-country trolley line, since it operated genuine Jewett or Jewett-style railroad-roof green interurban cars.  It was an essential part of the trolley-car link between Waterville, Maine, and New York.  It connected with Connecticut Company lines in Stamford.

At the New Haven RR Station forecort, there were was a multi-line departure board, which is now the the Branford Electric Ry. Association's Shore Line Trolley Museum in or near the East Haven Sprague Station.  Subway, Rye Beach, and Stamford are among the destinations shown.  There were two or three New Rochelle local lines.

One of my earliest memories is looking out of the back window of a car as we went under the subway's elevated structure on White Plains Road and then out into the open at E  241st, followed by a Third Avenue convertable.  The tracks remained in sight all through the trip through New Rochelle, including the abandoned tracks north of where the active loops serving the station turned off, and then the track swerved to the north or east side of the road and dissapeared.  This was in 1935, I was three-and-a-half, and I have recounted the return trip from Hartford and my memory of the steam locomotive.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, November 18, 2017 8:58 PM

I was suprised to hear that The NY & Stamford was a full interurban.  I figured it must have been a rinky-dink trolley, such that NH thought it was worth it to finance the NYW&B interurban New Rochelle-Port Chester extension.  Maybe the extension was just to supplement (relieve?) the NH on some of the local business.

And yes, you have the correct order of stations.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Sunday, November 19, 2017 10:59 PM

I read that the NYW&B passengers to the 133rd St Terminal could connect to th 3rd Avenue El.  I also read that the Third Ave bridge carried that line.  Were the rails carried at road deck level?  Did making the bridge one-way in 1941 affect rail transit?

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 20, 2017 12:20 AM

The existing Third Avenue bridge once had streetcar tracks, and for many years the line was a shuttle from 149th Street, the Hub, Westchester Avenue, Boston Road, Webster Avenue, Third Avenue. Willis Avenue all converging south over the bridge to 129th Street and Third Avenue and a connection with the conduit Third Avenue streetcar.  When the bridge was made one-way before WWII, the tracks became service non-revenue only, used during the middle of the night for car transfer, and the replacement bus was the same as the replacement for the Willis Avenue-125th Street streetcar, since the First Avenue Bridge also became one-way the other way.

 The Third Avenue Elevated had a completely different bridge.  Originally built by the Suburban Company it saw steam elevated trains from 129th Street, a joint station, Suburban, 2nd Av. and 3rd Av. Els., track map on the Remember the Third Ave. El thread, north to Treemont Avenue AND New York New Haven and Hartford Harlem Shuttle steam trains, with elevated-dimension coaches, from New  Rochelle.  After electrification of the elevateds in 1903, 3rd Avenue trains ran through to Treemont Avenue, and shuttle from 129th St. was established to Willis Avenue station where the NYNH&H steam trains, later electrified, terninated.  After the dual contracts, and the IRT rebuilding of the elevateds, the single-level double-track bridge was replaced with a two-level bridge, with two tracks on each level.  The upper level was used only during rush hours by 3rd and 2nd Avenue Expresses, with the lower level used all the time.  The elevated shuttles to Willis Avenue continued to operate using the lower level.  This bridge does not exist today.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Monday, November 20, 2017 10:20 PM

Thanks, I looked at the map on the earlier thread.  Using that map, it looks like the El bridge might be the bridge identified as the Secong Av Br on the linked 1947 topo map:

https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/Browse/NY/NY_Central%20Park_122894_1947_24000.jpg

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:32 AM

Correct.  The bridge was located at 2nd Avenue.  It did not have a roadway for regular vehicles, and was used for elevated trains exclusively.   I think a new roadway bridge may have replaced it.

The two levels of track north of the bridge were on PRoW, even though elevated.  The takeoff for the Willis Avenue station was a track between the two lower-level tracks that ramped down to ground level after the take-off for the lead to the small elevated yard where the old steam locomotives were stored until sale.   The Willis Avenue station had the elevated, the NYNH&H Harlem Shuttle, and the NYW&B.

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