Steam commuter locomotives

[Firelock76]

You know, I'd love to see Steamtown restore their Canadian 4-6-4t into an erzatz Jersey Central commuter locomotive and use it to pull their Jersey Central passenger cars.  Yeah, I know it's a Canadian engine but it's almost a dead-ringer for a CNJ unit.

Not much chance of this happening, it seems it was all they could do to get that 0-6-0 up again.

[selector]

It could be that I have missed the Camelback type because I am not familiar with them, or with their notation...it may have been mentioned in a number of replies and I wouldn't know better.  Were they not widely used in commuter service?

[rfpjohn]

Yes, Camelback ten wheelers were used by the Jersey Central right til the end of steam operations in 1954(?), one continuing in excursion service a little longer (774). The Reading used Camelback ten wheelers until such power was purged from the roster in 1948. Earlier, they had alot of Amercans and Atlantics in the camelback form. The last of the Americans disappearing during WW2, mostly in work train service if in service at all by that time. The Atlantics made it til 1947, I think. Some leased to the PRSL in south Jersey. The Erie and the Lackawanna both used camelback power in commuter service into the 30's, but I don't think past that. D&H used camelback power on it's Scranton-Carbondale commuter service, along with ten wheelers and Americans rebuilt into conventional engines, until well after the war. The Long Island had camelback ten wheelers and Atlantics into the early 30's.

And yes, Keystone Crossings was my K2/3 source. I was trying to tabulate while riding Amtrak. Looks like I missed alot! Kinda Brian Williams'd my post!

[ACY Tom]

After reading through that stuff, I think it should be renamed Keystone Crosseyes.

Tom

[rfpjohn]

Yes Tom, that's a pretty appropriate name! There is some pretty fascinating stuff there. Just going through those scads of engine numbers gives you some idea how big Pennsy was. It boggles the mind to think of how many people worked in every engine terminal, large and small!

[daveklepper]

ACF:  Were any K4s scrapped before 1945 other than wrecked-damaged?

[rfpjohn]

I found my copy of Edison's book. Looking at the K4s, 8309 was scrapped due to wreck damage in 1938. There don't seem to be any documented scrappings of the class until 1947. Looks like 1949 was a rough year for alot of Pennsy steam passenger power. I guess the diesels were really starting to bite! Interesting thing, the K3s class remained intact until 1946, except for the the five sold to the N&W. All are shown as scrapped between 12/46 and 10/49. I would not have guessed that of a minority class on the PRR.

My appologies to ACF.

[ACY Tom]

The scrapping of K4s 8309 is interesting.  I have seen a photo of this engine lying on her side at the base of a stone wall just east of the Pittsburgh station.  She had derailed and fallen straight down, over the edge of that wall.  Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw the photo.  After an accident like that, scrapping was probably inevitable.

No. 8309 was built 9/1918, at a time when engines were assigned numbers according to the locations where they worked, and she had a Lines West PCC&StL number.  Harry P. Albrecht published a small pamphlet in 1967 called PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD K-4s [sic] in his Steam Locomotives of Yesteryear series.  In it, photos of Lines West K4s engines 8225, 8278, 8309 (in 1933), 8373 (in 1934), and 8378 (in 1938) show the original sandbox location ahead of the bell; 8122 (in 1934) shows the standard sandbox location behind the bell. All except 8378 are shown with the original "Hopper Tank" Lines West tender. 

There are very few printed references to these special Lines West characteristics. but I think 7133 (a PFW&C number) still had the forward sandbox in the latter years when she worked New Jersey commuter trains.

Tom

[Valleyline]

rfpjohn

Dave, I'm curious. How long did steam last on the Yonkers branch of the NYC. The pictures I've seen of those 2-4-4T engines seem to indicate farely modern machines. I notice they had piston valves and electric headlights. Really cool looking little engines! Wish I had one!

Also, does anyone know how long the New Haven ran 4-4-0s. I've seen pictures of them in service as late as 1938.

 

Amazingly, the last New Haven 4-4-0 was retired in 1949 per data from "1962 NH Steam Locomotive Diagrams."

[cefinkjr]

Dave,

You mention the PRR G5 as being used on the LIRR. 

They were also used in commuter service in Pittsburgh with service as far east as Greensburg and south as far as West Brownsville.  I would imagine they went as far north as Beaver, PA or East Liverpool, OH but I have no idea how far west they went --- Wheeling would seem a bit far and Pittsburgh Railways provided good, frequent service to Washington.

I'm not old enough to remember it well but I imagine there was a G5 on a Kennyword Park extra that I rode as a kid.

Were G5's used anywhere else on the system?

[ACY Tom]

I understand G5s locos were used in the Chicago area and on the Grand Rapids & Indiana in Michigan.  I've also seen at least one photo of a G5s in the Coshocton, Ohio area, but I don't know what service that engine was assigned.

Tom

[rfpjohn]

The G5s class was used in New Jersey on the Bordentown Branch and the "Back road" line to Pemberton and all the way to Long Branch, when service from Camden still went through Toms River and Seaside Heights. They were also used on the PRSL in south Jersey, apparently in the post war years. Out of Philly, they were used on the line to Reading, Pottsville and even Willkes Barre when the service went that far, via the coal regions. They were also regular power on the Octorora branch, hauling carloads of mushrooms to the city. I've read of them being used in mixed train service on the Bellefonte branch, in central Pennsylvania. I'm pretty sure they wer used on the Delmarva lines, as well.

Thanks for the New Haven info, Valleyline. I assume any 4-4-0s still in service in 1949 were probably in wire train service.

[ACY Tom]

Yes, I was going to add the Lewisburg & Tyrone branch.  That line had a mixed milk train that originated in Sunbury, PA and ran to Montandon, where it crossed the Susquehanna and headed west to Bellefonte.  G5s 1589 was often used on this train.  E5s 4-4-2 9831 was also used on the Bellefonte train and on Wilkes Barre branch trains in the 1940's.  I understand E6s 4-4-2's were also seen in this area on Wilkes Barre trains.   

[Redwood Chopper]

An interesting topic, and with all Eastern-centric answers so far.

The San Francisco Peninsula and East Bay both hosted "commute" operations since the mid-1860s, with a normal range of steam power for each generation, with one exception. The East Bay line operating over the Central Pacific (initially -- after c.1888, the Southern Pacific but using the CPRR corporate ownership as lessee) ran 4-4-0s equipped with tenders, but the tenders were fitted with wooden road pilots, and the tank tops with centered oil headlamps. East Bay suburban trains ran with the engines facing backwards, at speed, over one or the other leg of each trip. Service ran between the West Oakland ferry slip---"Oakland Pier"---and Berkeley. [This (more or less) is the same route used by contemporary UP freights and the Amtrak California Capitol Corridor, and doubles as the terminal route for long haul Amtrak trains like the California Zephyr and Coast Starlight, although Oakland Pier disappeared in the early 1960s.]

CPRR found that better adpated suburban motive power was needed, so the system's Sacramento Shops, under General Master Mechanic A.J. Stevens, devised a group of 2-6-2Ts, each end equipped with Miller platform buffers and link coupler tongues and road pilots. The low-slung side tanks gave ample water for the relatively short run, and decent visibility. Sadly, they weren't strong enough to survive long in the ever-growing demand, and were soon supplanted and then replaced with older 4-6-0s equipped as the 4-4-0s had been, with backup lights and pilots on the tenders. By 1914 the entire East Bay lines were replaced with steel electric MU cars and trailers. These all eventually went to the Pacific Electric. One sole East Bay CPRR 2-6-2T, No.233, survives. It is safely tucked away (and as yet unrestored) in California State Railroad Museum's collection. It is currently stored in the structure in which it was "born," the former SP Sacramento Shops "Erecting Shop."

In the San Francisco-San Jose commute run---40+ miles each way---there were turntables and full roundhouses at both ends of the line, thus regular steam power held sway running conventionally, with (until about 1915-1920) with hand-me-down ex-mainline wooden coaches. The so-called "Harriman" steel coaches then began showing up there, and were in turn augmented by similar 72-foot steel "subs" with a Harriman Common Standard-influenced roofline.

On the Peninsula commutes, pre-WWII steam included 4-6-0s, Pacifics for the heavy haul peak trains, and finally Mt-class 4-8-2s and GS-class 4-8-4s running out their final revenue miles on weekdays. The couple of "old guard" SP Peninsula steam engineers I had the pleasure of chatting with in the 1960s---by then working their last years in freight service---regarded the Mt Mountains as the best commute power they had and would ever have. The Mountains could accelerate a long string of "subs" and Harriman coaches (often mixed) like jackrabbits. GS-class 4-8-4s took longer to start a train but could still perform beautifully. In this Peninsula service after about 1945, quite a number of the P-class Pacifics, the Mts and (of course) all the GS locomotives were fitted with single note Leslie Super-Typhon air horns due to the numerous spur road grade crossings interlacing the Peninsula communities via El Camino Real (California Highway 101). Steam whistles were sometimes used---usually in giving a highball acknowledgment, but otherwise, the air horns were favored.

The only diesels, the "old guard" hoggers acknowledged, that could equal a Peninsula-service SP 4-8-2 were the Fairbanks-Morse H-24-66 Trainmasters, although they, too, were a little slow to "load up" but could transition much faster than EMD GP9s or SD9s and certainly faster than demoted SDP45s.

 

 

[Tweedy]

Thank you Redwood Chopper! I've been waiting for discussion of SP's SF/SJ commutor system. In school year 44/45 commuted between Los Gatos and Redwood City a direct run. In afternoon, however had to transfer in Palo Alto where we could catch the "Delmonte Express" to San Jose & switch to "Peerless" busses for the jump to Los Gatos (all on same ticket). Otherwise, we'd get off at California St (S Palo Alto) and wait for the regular run back to LG. Most of the locomotives were Pacifics (24XX side numbers). The "Delmonte" used a Mt or GS (can't remember) and ended up in Monterey/Pacific Grove. That was a fun time! The Los Gatos run was thru orchards and unpopulated open space, the train stopping every 3 or 4 miles, sometimes just at a road intersection to pick up or drop off 5 or 6 people.

Summer of '45, was a "Helper" at SP's Bayshore Boiler Shop & Roundhouse. Very interesting! Didn't see dieselization comming---but in retrospect, the conversion was a no-brainer. Heavy, dirty, labor intensive, time consuming work to keep the steamers running--but very glad to have had that 2 or 3 month experience.

 

[rcdrye]

The turntable in Pacific Grove was too short for anything bigger than the P-class pacifics with the small tenders, so I doubt Mt class steamers were used.  I was also told once it had a weight restriction.  The first two SDP45's that came off Amtrak lease, 3200 and 3205, were considered "slow" compared to the TMs until the traction motor blowers were replaced.  On the Coast Daylight an FP7 would load faster than an SDP45, but the slack would quickly run in and by the time the last car went by the train would be going about 45 MPH.  The GP40-P2s that came in 1976 also tended to be kept out of rush hour service.  SP used steam for about 18 months after the first P-S bilevels arrived, and operated the harriman-style coaches mixed with bilevels into the 1980s.