The turntable in Pacific Grove was too short for anything bigger than the P-class pacifics with the small tenders, so I doubt Mt class steamers were used. I was also told once it had a weight restriction. The first two SDP45's that came off Amtrak lease, 3200 and 3205, were considered "slow" compared to the TMs until the traction motor blowers were replaced. On the Coast Daylight an FP7 would load faster than an SDP45, but the slack would quickly run in and by the time the last car went by the train would be going about 45 MPH. The GP40-P2s that came in 1976 also tended to be kept out of rush hour service. SP used steam for about 18 months after the first P-S bilevels arrived, and operated the harriman-style coaches mixed with bilevels into the 1980s.
Thank you Redwood Chopper! I've been waiting for discussion of SP's SF/SJ commutor system. In school year 44/45 commuted between Los Gatos and Redwood City a direct run. In afternoon, however had to transfer in Palo Alto where we could catch the "Delmonte Express" to San Jose & switch to "Peerless" busses for the jump to Los Gatos (all on same ticket). Otherwise, we'd get off at California St (S Palo Alto) and wait for the regular run back to LG. Most of the locomotives were Pacifics (24XX side numbers). The "Delmonte" used a Mt or GS (can't remember) and ended up in Monterey/Pacific Grove. That was a fun time! The Los Gatos run was thru orchards and unpopulated open space, the train stopping every 3 or 4 miles, sometimes just at a road intersection to pick up or drop off 5 or 6 people.
Summer of '45, was a "Helper" at SP's Bayshore Boiler Shop & Roundhouse. Very interesting! Didn't see dieselization comming---but in retrospect, the conversion was a no-brainer. Heavy, dirty, labor intensive, time consuming work to keep the steamers running--but very glad to have had that 2 or 3 month experience.
An interesting topic, and with all Eastern-centric answers so far.
The San Francisco Peninsula and East Bay both hosted "commute" operations since the mid-1860s, with a normal range of steam power for each generation, with one exception. The East Bay line operating over the Central Pacific (initially -- after c.1888, the Southern Pacific but using the CPRR corporate ownership as lessee) ran 4-4-0s equipped with tenders, but the tenders were fitted with wooden road pilots, and the tank tops with centered oil headlamps. East Bay suburban trains ran with the engines facing backwards, at speed, over one or the other leg of each trip. Service ran between the West Oakland ferry slip---"Oakland Pier"---and Berkeley. [This (more or less) is the same route used by contemporary UP freights and the Amtrak California Capitol Corridor, and doubles as the terminal route for long haul Amtrak trains like the California Zephyr and Coast Starlight, although Oakland Pier disappeared in the early 1960s.]
CPRR found that better adpated suburban motive power was needed, so the system's Sacramento Shops, under General Master Mechanic A.J. Stevens, devised a group of 2-6-2Ts, each end equipped with Miller platform buffers and link coupler tongues and road pilots. The low-slung side tanks gave ample water for the relatively short run, and decent visibility. Sadly, they weren't strong enough to survive long in the ever-growing demand, and were soon supplanted and then replaced with older 4-6-0s equipped as the 4-4-0s had been, with backup lights and pilots on the tenders. By 1914 the entire East Bay lines were replaced with steel electric MU cars and trailers. These all eventually went to the Pacific Electric. One sole East Bay CPRR 2-6-2T, No.233, survives. It is safely tucked away (and as yet unrestored) in California State Railroad Museum's collection. It is currently stored in the structure in which it was "born," the former SP Sacramento Shops "Erecting Shop."
In the San Francisco-San Jose commute run---40+ miles each way---there were turntables and full roundhouses at both ends of the line, thus regular steam power held sway running conventionally, with (until about 1915-1920) with hand-me-down ex-mainline wooden coaches. The so-called "Harriman" steel coaches then began showing up there, and were in turn augmented by similar 72-foot steel "subs" with a Harriman Common Standard-influenced roofline.
On the Peninsula commutes, pre-WWII steam included 4-6-0s, Pacifics for the heavy haul peak trains, and finally Mt-class 4-8-2s and GS-class 4-8-4s running out their final revenue miles on weekdays. The couple of "old guard" SP Peninsula steam engineers I had the pleasure of chatting with in the 1960s---by then working their last years in freight service---regarded the Mt Mountains as the best commute power they had and would ever have. The Mountains could accelerate a long string of "subs" and Harriman coaches (often mixed) like jackrabbits. GS-class 4-8-4s took longer to start a train but could still perform beautifully. In this Peninsula service after about 1945, quite a number of the P-class Pacifics, the Mts and (of course) all the GS locomotives were fitted with single note Leslie Super-Typhon air horns due to the numerous spur road grade crossings interlacing the Peninsula communities via El Camino Real (California Highway 101). Steam whistles were sometimes used---usually in giving a highball acknowledgment, but otherwise, the air horns were favored.
The only diesels, the "old guard" hoggers acknowledged, that could equal a Peninsula-service SP 4-8-2 were the Fairbanks-Morse H-24-66 Trainmasters, although they, too, were a little slow to "load up" but could transition much faster than EMD GP9s or SD9s and certainly faster than demoted SDP45s.
Yes, I was going to add the Lewisburg & Tyrone branch. That line had a mixed milk train that originated in Sunbury, PA and ran to Montandon, where it crossed the Susquehanna and headed west to Bellefonte. G5s 1589 was often used on this train. E5s 4-4-2 9831 was also used on the Bellefonte train and on Wilkes Barre branch trains in the 1940's. I understand E6s 4-4-2's were also seen in this area on Wilkes Barre trains.
The G5s class was used in New Jersey on the Bordentown Branch and the "Back road" line to Pemberton and all the way to Long Branch, when service from Camden still went through Toms River and Seaside Heights. They were also used on the PRSL in south Jersey, apparently in the post war years. Out of Philly, they were used on the line to Reading, Pottsville and even Willkes Barre when the service went that far, via the coal regions. They were also regular power on the Octorora branch, hauling carloads of mushrooms to the city. I've read of them being used in mixed train service on the Bellefonte branch, in central Pennsylvania. I'm pretty sure they wer used on the Delmarva lines, as well.
Thanks for the New Haven info, Valleyline. I assume any 4-4-0s still in service in 1949 were probably in wire train service.
I understand G5s locos were used in the Chicago area and on the Grand Rapids & Indiana in Michigan. I've also seen at least one photo of a G5s in the Coshocton, Ohio area, but I don't know what service that engine was assigned.
Tom
Dave,
You mention the PRR G5 as being used on the LIRR.
They were also used in commuter service in Pittsburgh with service as far east as Greensburg and south as far as West Brownsville. I would imagine they went as far north as Beaver, PA or East Liverpool, OH but I have no idea how far west they went --- Wheeling would seem a bit far and Pittsburgh Railways provided good, frequent service to Washington.
I'm not old enough to remember it well but I imagine there was a G5 on a Kennyword Park extra that I rode as a kid.
Were G5's used anywhere else on the system?
ChuckAllen, TX
rfpjohn Dave, I'm curious. How long did steam last on the Yonkers branch of the NYC. The pictures I've seen of those 2-4-4T engines seem to indicate farely modern machines. I notice they had piston valves and electric headlights. Really cool looking little engines! Wish I had one! Also, does anyone know how long the New Haven ran 4-4-0s. I've seen pictures of them in service as late as 1938. Amazingly, the last New Haven 4-4-0 was retired in 1949 per data from "1962 NH Steam Locomotive Diagrams."
Dave, I'm curious. How long did steam last on the Yonkers branch of the NYC. The pictures I've seen of those 2-4-4T engines seem to indicate farely modern machines. I notice they had piston valves and electric headlights. Really cool looking little engines! Wish I had one!
Also, does anyone know how long the New Haven ran 4-4-0s. I've seen pictures of them in service as late as 1938.
The scrapping of K4s 8309 is interesting. I have seen a photo of this engine lying on her side at the base of a stone wall just east of the Pittsburgh station. She had derailed and fallen straight down, over the edge of that wall. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw the photo. After an accident like that, scrapping was probably inevitable.
No. 8309 was built 9/1918, at a time when engines were assigned numbers according to the locations where they worked, and she had a Lines West PCC&StL number. Harry P. Albrecht published a small pamphlet in 1967 called PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD K-4s [sic] in his Steam Locomotives of Yesteryear series. In it, photos of Lines West K4s engines 8225, 8278, 8309 (in 1933), 8373 (in 1934), and 8378 (in 1938) show the original sandbox location ahead of the bell; 8122 (in 1934) shows the standard sandbox location behind the bell. All except 8378 are shown with the original "Hopper Tank" Lines West tender.
There are very few printed references to these special Lines West characteristics. but I think 7133 (a PFW&C number) still had the forward sandbox in the latter years when she worked New Jersey commuter trains.
I found my copy of Edison's book. Looking at the K4s, 8309 was scrapped due to wreck damage in 1938. There don't seem to be any documented scrappings of the class until 1947. Looks like 1949 was a rough year for alot of Pennsy steam passenger power. I guess the diesels were really starting to bite! Interesting thing, the K3s class remained intact until 1946, except for the the five sold to the N&W. All are shown as scrapped between 12/46 and 10/49. I would not have guessed that of a minority class on the PRR.
My appologies to ACF.
ACF: Were any K4s scrapped before 1945 other than wrecked-damaged?
Yes Tom, that's a pretty appropriate name! There is some pretty fascinating stuff there. Just going through those scads of engine numbers gives you some idea how big Pennsy was. It boggles the mind to think of how many people worked in every engine terminal, large and small!
After reading through that stuff, I think it should be renamed Keystone Crosseyes.
Yes, Camelback ten wheelers were used by the Jersey Central right til the end of steam operations in 1954(?), one continuing in excursion service a little longer (774). The Reading used Camelback ten wheelers until such power was purged from the roster in 1948. Earlier, they had alot of Amercans and Atlantics in the camelback form. The last of the Americans disappearing during WW2, mostly in work train service if in service at all by that time. The Atlantics made it til 1947, I think. Some leased to the PRSL in south Jersey. The Erie and the Lackawanna both used camelback power in commuter service into the 30's, but I don't think past that. D&H used camelback power on it's Scranton-Carbondale commuter service, along with ten wheelers and Americans rebuilt into conventional engines, until well after the war. The Long Island had camelback ten wheelers and Atlantics into the early 30's.
And yes, Keystone Crossings was my K2/3 source. I was trying to tabulate while riding Amtrak. Looks like I missed alot! Kinda Brian Williams'd my post!
It could be that I have missed the Camelback type because I am not familiar with them, or with their notation...it may have been mentioned in a number of replies and I wouldn't know better. Were they not widely used in commuter service?
You know, I'd love to see Steamtown restore their Canadian 4-6-4t into an erzatz Jersey Central commuter locomotive and use it to pull their Jersey Central passenger cars. Yeah, I know it's a Canadian engine but it's almost a dead-ringer for a CNJ unit.
Not much chance of this happening, it seems it was all they could do to get that 0-6-0 up again.
Over the past couple hours, I looked over a the list of locomotive assignments on the Keystone Crossings site, and came up with some interesting info. This is probably the source of Rfpjohn's info too.
K2 and K3 engines were essentially the same, except for cylinder dimensions. The following Divisions were using K2/3 engines on Oct. 1, 1945, ranked from greatest to least numbers. I have not included Divisions that had no K2/3 engines at all, such as the Middle and Pittsburgh Divisions.
Eastern Ohio Div., 2 K2s + 7K3s = 13 (plus 88 K4s)
Conemaugh Div., 2 K2s + 6 K2sa + 1 K3s = 9 (plus 0 K4s)
N. Y. Div., 3 K2s + 1 K2sa + 2 K3s = 6 leased to L. I. R. R.
N. Y. Div., 2 K2s not leased (plus 28 K4s)
Columbus Div., 1 K2s + 6 K3s = 7 (plus 62 K4s)
Philadelphia Div., 3 K2s + 2 K2sa = 5 (plus 0 K4s)
Indianapolis Div., 4 K2s (plus 0 K4s)
Lake Div., 1 K2s + 1 K3s = 3 (plus 0 K4s)
Erie & Ashtabula Div., 2 K2sa + 1 K3s = 3, (plus 0 K4s)
Ft. Wayne Div., 3 K3s, (plus 62 K4s)
Monongahela Div., 1 K2s + 1 K2sa = 2 (plus 0 K4s)
Buffalo Div., 1 K2s + 1 K2sa= 2 (plus 3 K4s)
Renovo Div., 1 K2s, (plus 0 K4s)
It was hard to read some of this, but it looks like 13 K2sa, 22 K3s, and 23 K2s. If I missed any, feel free to sue me.
On July 1, 1949, there were only 3 left: one K2s on the Columbus Div., one K2sa on the Monongahela Div., and one K3s on the Conemaugh Div. It looks like all K2/K3 engines were off the roster in 1950.
According to Edson's book KEYSTONE STEAM & ELECTRIC, about 125 K4s engines were scrapped before 1949. I could have miscounted these. My eyes were involuntarily crossing by the time I finished! This left about 300 of the 425 unit K4s fleet (or about 70%) intact.
When were the last K2s and KM3s scrapped? And how many k4s before that?
"No, Dave. Not Milwaukee. This one was C&NW. A very remarkable, beautiful speedster of an engine with 81" drivers. This was C&NW engine 1015, reputed to be the C&NW's very first 4-4-2. She's preserved in St. Louis. I don't know her current condition.
Tom"
She's lookig a bit worse for wear, but in the next year or two will get a full cosmetic restoration. They are collecting donations in preparation for work to start.
http://rgusrail.com/album/moslmtyard/cnw_1015_01.jpg
Dave, I was just looking through PRR motive power assignments for October 1, 1945 and found that six light Pacifics were leased to the Long Island as of that date. Two K2s, two K2sa and two K3s. Two K3s were shown assigned to the New York Division and two K2s on the Philadelphia Division. The remainder of the light Pacifics were scattered around the system, with quite a few in eastern Ohio. I was suprised to see how many actually were listed in service at that late a date.
No, Dave. Not Milwaukee. This one was C&NW. A very remarkable, beautiful speedster of an engine with 81" drivers. This was C&NW engine 1015, reputed to be the C&NW's very first 4-4-2. She's preserved in St. Louis. I don't know her current condition.
A CMStP&P A! In what shape?
The CNW 4-4-2's (Supposedly topping 100 mph regularly) were regulated to commuter trains by the mid-40's. The victims of new, larger motive power in a high-traffic period.
At least one CNW Atlantic that I know of survives in St. Louis; #1015.
Any remaining K2s and K3s during WW2 must have been in use west of Crestline, because I never saw any in operation ever. I doubt many K4s were retired before K2s and K3s. The two K5s were retired before many K4s, however.
Another point. K4s replaced G5s just after electrication Wilmington-Sunnyside, when they became available, on the North Jersey Coast trains (NY & Long Branch). The reason was the use of the NEC Rahway-Newark`for trains to Exchange Place, most of which skipped South Amboy and none of which changed engines there, and the need to run at 90-100 mph to keep out of the way of the GG1-hauled trains. I first rode the NY&LB in 1951 and never saw anything but a K4 steam on the PRR trains. Later, of course, came Baldwin sharks briefly and then E-7s. Jersey Central was still using Ten Wheeler camelbacks, but these seemed to accelerate and run as fast the PRR trains, but with shorter consists.
Some Pacifics regularly assigned to the Peekskill trains had them. What I had temporarily forgotton was that the Poughkeepsie trains used downgraded mainline coaches, some not even reseated for higher capacity. These did have axle generators, and there was not problem when a Hudson was assigned to one of these trains. I would imagine Pacifics were the only power on the two Peekskill trains, two in in the morning with mus and two out in the evening. The Brewster trains also had downgraded mainline coaches with axle generators, and Pacifics with an occasional Ten Wheeler powered these trains. The 4-6-0 would have been one modernized with piston valves and modern valve gear, not one of the slide-valve types, borrowed from the Putnam if they were short of Pacifics. The Putnam coaches were arch-roof plain-Jain commuter cars, appearing identacle to those in the B&A Boston suburban service, and I just don't remember whether the 4-6-0's supplied lighting power. I think they did.
I was looking through a couple of books and in Pennsy Power it states that the remaining K2-K3 engines got power reverse, per ICC order, during the late 30's. I wonder how N&W liked the five K3's they bought used? I've seen a picture of one in Richmond's Broad Street station at the head of one of the connection trains they ran on trackage rights over the ACL from Petersburg.
Sorry if I'm a bit late with this comment. I've always liked the PRR K2's and K3's, even though they were the odd man out on PRR's roster. The built-up, outside bearing trailing truck and oversized valve gear hanger stood out on a road that had very few other engines with these features (the USRA's being among the very few exceptions). In spite of PRR's 20-25 year retirement practice, some of these 1910-13 engines lasted until 1949. I don't believe they fit well into commuter service, but they were used on secondary trains for a long time. Maybe the difficulties with the reverse lever constituted a major problem in service that required frequent stops and jackrabbit starts. The fact remains, some of them outlasted many K4's.
Dave, I looked up the B&E western terminous/ferry terminals. One was at Love Point on Kent Island. This was for the line to Rehobeth Beach. The other was a little further south at Claiborne, starting point for the line to Ocean City, the two routes running roughly parallel across the Delmarva Penninsula. Both ferry routes originated in Baltimore.
NYC didn't have axle generators on steam commuter cars? Did they use oversized steam turbines for head end power supply?
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