The Reading had class Q1 2-6-4T locomotives which were specifically built for commuter service and were supposed to run both ways without turning.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/pr381.jpg
The CNJ had 4-6-4T locomotives which also were specifically built for commuter service and were supposed to run both ways without turning.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1675599
CNJ also had a group of 25 classy looking 2-6-2T side tank engines, some of which lased though WW2. Five of these engines were originally built for the Long Island in 1904 and sold to the CNJ in 1911. Some of the photos in northeast.railfan show a few of these engines rebuilt with piston valves, indicating they may have superheated a few, though not necessarily. Of course they also had their big fleet of ten wheeler camelbacks, equipped with pilots and headlights on the tenders for reverse running. The Reading rebuilt some of it's D8 4-4-0s with piston valves and superheat for commuter service as well as revamping some of it's freight 4-6-0s into nifty looking L3sb class. I believe these were rebuilt from conventional cab 4-6-0 freight locomotives as the last camelbacks built in the country in 1929! Of course, Pennsy rebuilt D16 class americans into the wonderful D16sb which were great commuter engines. I've often wondered whether PRR regretted going for the 90 huge G5s engines on cusp of the depression, when patronage on many commuter lines plummetted.
IC also assigned 2-8-0's to commuter service. The major change was a big headlight mounted on the tender.
Wisconsin Central and its Chicago Harlem and Batavia subsidiary ran 2-4-2 and 2-6-2 tank engines over what's now CSX's B&OCT line to Forest Park, along with another line on what's now Randolph Street in Chicago, Oak Park and River Forest from the late 1880s to about 1897. Part of the line in Chicago(Austin) and Oak Park was shared between a branch of the Lake St L and the Suburban Railroad from 1897 to 1902.
Dave, I'm curious. How long did steam last on the Yonkers branch of the NYC. The pictures I've seen of those 2-4-4T engines seem to indicate farely modern machines. I notice they had piston valves and electric headlights. Really cool looking little engines! Wish I had one!
Also, does anyone know how long the New Haven ran 4-4-0s. I've seen pictures of them in service as late as 1938.
Interesting, that Reading 2-6-4. I thought Lionel was the only bunch that had 2-6-4's.
There were a few American RR's that had a 2-6-4"T" (Tank engine). But Lionel was the only "RR" to have an American outline 2-6-4 tendered loco, including the (in)famous "Girls Train" in pink.
Yet, Lionel was not the only "RR" to have a 2-6-4 that was "tendered". The name given them is "Adriatic" and that is because there were some tendered 2-6-4 locomotives in countries that border the Adriatic Sea in Europe. They were also used in South Africa and Australia.
I do think the Lionel 2-6-4 is a very finely proportioned locomotive and I wish there were some real 1:1 scale of that type in America.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
RFPJOHN: Although the Pennsy got its G5s Ten Wheelers for commuter service, and indeed the Pittsburgh commuter trains used them until dicontinuance, withouit diesels, if I remember correctly, most migrated into branch line and pedler freight service because of massive electrification of the Phiadelphia and NEC commuter lines. Indeed, many fans associated these modern 4-6-0's with this type of service, not realizing they were originally designed as commuter lcomotives. They were solid, economical, easy-tp-mainatain locomotives, and I doubt the Pennsy regreted having them. The rebuilt D16s were valuable where track and/or bridge conditions prohibited the overall weight and axle loadings of G5s.
The Gettys Square tank engines were used right up to electrification of the branch and never saw regujlar service on the Putnam main line to Brester. Downgraded 4-6-0s were the regular power there until dieselization with RS-3s. Some of the 4-6-0's in use after wwii still had slide-valves.
Pittsburgh commuter trains lasted into the 1960s. Like the "Valpo dummies" in Chicago, they got boiler GP9s in their last years.
Growing up on a Pennsy (Pemberton) branch in south Jersey, the PRR enginemen prefered E6s Atlantics. G5s just rode too rough! A Baldwin RS-12, PC #8084 was the last power on that lines commuter train (4-25-1969).
My comment concerning possible PRR regrets over acquiring G5s engines was in regard to how they sometimes seemed severely overpowered for the 2-5 car trains on mildly graded territory (NOT Pittsburgh territory). Pennsy ended up scrapping alot of fairly recently upgraded light power, after the arrival of those big ten wheelers. D16sb, E3sd, E7s K2s engines could have conceveably carried them through the depression years traffic levels with little more than heavy overhauls. Of course, the second world war found them needing every thing that could steam!
Thanks for the NYC info, Dave.
I agree with you about upgraded light Atlantics and Americans on two and three-car branch-line trains. But the K2 Pacific was a notoriously inefficient locomotive, both in coal and water usage and in maintanace, the latter because of heavy valve-gear needing adjustment frequently. Its Johnson bar was heavy for the engineer to control . PRR and LIRRand PRSL were happy with the G5s (and of course the E6s) that they had, especially during WWII.
Yea, those K2s were dogs. I'm not sure if any ever got power reverse. Pennsy was not one to waste much money on "frills" unless ordered to by the ICC. D16, E3, E5 and E6s classes never did get it. The reluctance of engineers to adjust valve settings under way on K2s, out of fear of being injured by the johnson bar throwing them into the front corner of the cab, may have been one of the reasons they were so inefficient and also would be cause for excessive wear in the valve gear and valves. I have also read that the trailing trucks had a bad habit of running hot and also disassembling at speed! Not good.
It is interesting, to me, the different approach some roads took to powering commuter service. Pennsy seems alone, at least among eastern lines, to have acquired brand new engines for such service. Everybody else just used outmoded road engines, although often heavily rebuilt. This seems to be in keeping with PRR's policy up through the 1920's of not really keeping engines a long time. 20-25 years seemed about typical, some classes of yard power not even lasting that long. I guess it was deemed cheaper to replace than to rebuild. With the onset of the depression, locomotive lifespans start to really stretch out, with some engines approaching half a century at the end of steam.
Not quite right. Remember the E6 was a 1914 design and the full pack survived through WWII, with a few making it to 1952, rode behind one Little Silver - Princeton Jc., subst. for the Red Bank - Trenton doodlebug summer 1952. The K4's I-10's, H-9, H10, Ls and Ms lasted more than 25 years for sure. But these were locomotives designed with the help of the Altoona test facilitiy and some real engineering, with possibly the E6 being the first. And certainly the rebuilt D16s lasted 50 years or more. The G5 was designed to be an efficient locomotive. Taking over from earlier power reduced maintenance iand fuel costs, possibly even with light trains.
And as noted, the NYCentral did have specific Boston suburban tank locomotives. But from the B&M Moguls to the SP 4-8-4s bumpted by diesels, certainly downgraded road power was normal for North American suburban servie.
'
As I said in my original post, Prior to the depression years, PRR cycled it's power out in 20-25 years. As noted in your comment, Dave, in later years, Pennsy steam often did attain impressive age. Your example of the E6s class being a good one. They didn't build any consolidations after 1916, yet the H8, H9 and H10 classes were well represented in the late 50's. D16sb was a unique case. Only three survived the purge 1930's, and only because they were the only power light enough and suitable for service on the Baltimore & Eastern subsidiary. The rest of the class was scrapped out as commuter lines electrified and larger power became available (G5s, E6s, etc.) along with the decline of branchline service systemwide due to the depression and bus/auto competition.
I made a statement in my posting that's bothered me all day. I said that Pennsy was unique in acquiring brand new steam power exclusively for commuter service (G5s) when the CNJ 4-6-4T and B&A 4-6-6T locomotives had just been discussed! Neat, modern engines, with a sole purpose; transport commuter trains efficiently!
Wish I'd been around to see any of them!
The Baltimore Eastern's connection with Baltimore was by ferry boat or via the PRR Cape Charles Line. It was mostly an east-west operation across the Del-Mar-Va Penninsular. I would like to be reminded as to where the ferry boat landing at the west end was located. Of the three D16s that survived the purge for operation on the Baltimore Eastern, were any others saved besides the one at Strassburg's Pennsylvanina Railway Museum? A really beutiful locomotive! And be glad you can see what is at that museum and others. We could have faired worse!
I've always thought the ferry docked at Annapolis,but I don't know for sure. As for the D16sb's, unfortunately 1223 is the sole surviver. I understand that 1035, one of the last three, was slated for preservation, as she was in decent shape when retired. Someone obviously felt one was enough. Two were sold to the Kishacoquillis Valley Railroad in central PA. #1033 and 2082. Both ran until the end of that little line in 1940. 2082 was scrapped on sight, 1033 went elsewhere, surely for scrapping also.
A friend of mine complained that the 1223 was always the engine operating when he visited Strasburg back in the 70's. I never saw her run! I was so jealous! I did get to ride behind 7002 one time. She is a beauty in her own right!
But which town was the west end of the B&E railroad? The east terminal of the ferry?
Interesting that the SP and the GTW (Detroit-Durand) used some of their most modern steam power in commuter service toward end of steam. Earlier, Pacifics were use for both SF and Detroit, but we saw 4-8-4's out of 3rd and Townsend and streamlined 4-8-2s on the GTW. Occasonally, a Hudson would substitute for a Pacific for the Harmon - Poughkeepsie service, but never a Niagra. I suppose that when a Hudson was used, the commuters just had to put up without lights, because the Hudsons did not have generators large enough for head-end lighting power, and as far as I know, NYCentral mus did not have oversized battaries or axle-generators. Steam heat yes.
Dave, I looked up the B&E western terminous/ferry terminals. One was at Love Point on Kent Island. This was for the line to Rehobeth Beach. The other was a little further south at Claiborne, starting point for the line to Ocean City, the two routes running roughly parallel across the Delmarva Penninsula. Both ferry routes originated in Baltimore.
NYC didn't have axle generators on steam commuter cars? Did they use oversized steam turbines for head end power supply?
Sorry if I'm a bit late with this comment. I've always liked the PRR K2's and K3's, even though they were the odd man out on PRR's roster. The built-up, outside bearing trailing truck and oversized valve gear hanger stood out on a road that had very few other engines with these features (the USRA's being among the very few exceptions). In spite of PRR's 20-25 year retirement practice, some of these 1910-13 engines lasted until 1949. I don't believe they fit well into commuter service, but they were used on secondary trains for a long time. Maybe the difficulties with the reverse lever constituted a major problem in service that required frequent stops and jackrabbit starts. The fact remains, some of them outlasted many K4's.
Tom
I was looking through a couple of books and in Pennsy Power it states that the remaining K2-K3 engines got power reverse, per ICC order, during the late 30's. I wonder how N&W liked the five K3's they bought used? I've seen a picture of one in Richmond's Broad Street station at the head of one of the connection trains they ran on trackage rights over the ACL from Petersburg.
Some Pacifics regularly assigned to the Peekskill trains had them. What I had temporarily forgotton was that the Poughkeepsie trains used downgraded mainline coaches, some not even reseated for higher capacity. These did have axle generators, and there was not problem when a Hudson was assigned to one of these trains. I would imagine Pacifics were the only power on the two Peekskill trains, two in in the morning with mus and two out in the evening. The Brewster trains also had downgraded mainline coaches with axle generators, and Pacifics with an occasional Ten Wheeler powered these trains. The 4-6-0 would have been one modernized with piston valves and modern valve gear, not one of the slide-valve types, borrowed from the Putnam if they were short of Pacifics. The Putnam coaches were arch-roof plain-Jain commuter cars, appearing identacle to those in the B&A Boston suburban service, and I just don't remember whether the 4-6-0's supplied lighting power. I think they did.
Another point. K4s replaced G5s just after electrication Wilmington-Sunnyside, when they became available, on the North Jersey Coast trains (NY & Long Branch). The reason was the use of the NEC Rahway-Newark`for trains to Exchange Place, most of which skipped South Amboy and none of which changed engines there, and the need to run at 90-100 mph to keep out of the way of the GG1-hauled trains. I first rode the NY&LB in 1951 and never saw anything but a K4 steam on the PRR trains. Later, of course, came Baldwin sharks briefly and then E-7s. Jersey Central was still using Ten Wheeler camelbacks, but these seemed to accelerate and run as fast the PRR trains, but with shorter consists.
Any remaining K2s and K3s during WW2 must have been in use west of Crestline, because I never saw any in operation ever. I doubt many K4s were retired before K2s and K3s. The two K5s were retired before many K4s, however.
The CNW 4-4-2's (Supposedly topping 100 mph regularly) were regulated to commuter trains by the mid-40's. The victims of new, larger motive power in a high-traffic period.
At least one CNW Atlantic that I know of survives in St. Louis; #1015.
A CMStP&P A! In what shape?
No, Dave. Not Milwaukee. This one was C&NW. A very remarkable, beautiful speedster of an engine with 81" drivers. This was C&NW engine 1015, reputed to be the C&NW's very first 4-4-2. She's preserved in St. Louis. I don't know her current condition.
Dave, I was just looking through PRR motive power assignments for October 1, 1945 and found that six light Pacifics were leased to the Long Island as of that date. Two K2s, two K2sa and two K3s. Two K3s were shown assigned to the New York Division and two K2s on the Philadelphia Division. The remainder of the light Pacifics were scattered around the system, with quite a few in eastern Ohio. I was suprised to see how many actually were listed in service at that late a date.
"No, Dave. Not Milwaukee. This one was C&NW. A very remarkable, beautiful speedster of an engine with 81" drivers. This was C&NW engine 1015, reputed to be the C&NW's very first 4-4-2. She's preserved in St. Louis. I don't know her current condition.
Tom"
She's lookig a bit worse for wear, but in the next year or two will get a full cosmetic restoration. They are collecting donations in preparation for work to start.
http://rgusrail.com/album/moslmtyard/cnw_1015_01.jpg
When were the last K2s and KM3s scrapped? And how many k4s before that?
Over the past couple hours, I looked over a the list of locomotive assignments on the Keystone Crossings site, and came up with some interesting info. This is probably the source of Rfpjohn's info too.
K2 and K3 engines were essentially the same, except for cylinder dimensions. The following Divisions were using K2/3 engines on Oct. 1, 1945, ranked from greatest to least numbers. I have not included Divisions that had no K2/3 engines at all, such as the Middle and Pittsburgh Divisions.
Eastern Ohio Div., 2 K2s + 7K3s = 13 (plus 88 K4s)
Conemaugh Div., 2 K2s + 6 K2sa + 1 K3s = 9 (plus 0 K4s)
N. Y. Div., 3 K2s + 1 K2sa + 2 K3s = 6 leased to L. I. R. R.
N. Y. Div., 2 K2s not leased (plus 28 K4s)
Columbus Div., 1 K2s + 6 K3s = 7 (plus 62 K4s)
Philadelphia Div., 3 K2s + 2 K2sa = 5 (plus 0 K4s)
Indianapolis Div., 4 K2s (plus 0 K4s)
Lake Div., 1 K2s + 1 K3s = 3 (plus 0 K4s)
Erie & Ashtabula Div., 2 K2sa + 1 K3s = 3, (plus 0 K4s)
Ft. Wayne Div., 3 K3s, (plus 62 K4s)
Monongahela Div., 1 K2s + 1 K2sa = 2 (plus 0 K4s)
Buffalo Div., 1 K2s + 1 K2sa= 2 (plus 3 K4s)
Renovo Div., 1 K2s, (plus 0 K4s)
It was hard to read some of this, but it looks like 13 K2sa, 22 K3s, and 23 K2s. If I missed any, feel free to sue me.
On July 1, 1949, there were only 3 left: one K2s on the Columbus Div., one K2sa on the Monongahela Div., and one K3s on the Conemaugh Div. It looks like all K2/K3 engines were off the roster in 1950.
According to Edson's book KEYSTONE STEAM & ELECTRIC, about 125 K4s engines were scrapped before 1949. I could have miscounted these. My eyes were involuntarily crossing by the time I finished! This left about 300 of the 425 unit K4s fleet (or about 70%) intact.
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