Great Western, I forgot to say thanks for the NY Times article about the Vanderbilt statue.
Mike
Since making my question post I recalled a web site that I had once seen dealing with troop trains.
Here is the link.
http://www.archive.org/details/TroopTra1943
The secrecy of the time says that the train was 'somewhere in America', but I am sure some 'hawk-eyed' Member will put names and maybe numbers to the locos and recognize some places featured.
I found the method of communal bathing very interesting.
Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad
https://www.buckfast.org.uk/
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. Lewis Carroll English author & recreational mathematician (1832 - 1898)
A reminder, Great Western: It is your turn to ask a question!
Oh! sorry. I have gotten confused with a similar type of thread elsewhere on the Forum.
From reading web sites and seeing pics of logging railroads it seems that logs rarely traveled further from where they were felled to the sawmill or river into which they were deposited to float to a sawmill.
Were there instances where whole cut down trees traveled on flat cars some distances beyond the logging line onto a Class 1 railroad?
Great Western Were there instances where whole cut down trees traveled on flat cars some distances beyond the logging line onto a Class 1 railroad?
Great Western,
Good to hear from you. Yes indeed but not exactly whole trees just the commercially usable tree trunks.
I am most familiar with an operation that ran well into the 1950's. The Tidewater Cypress lumber company logged cypress trees from their vast swamp lands in south Florida. These were then transported in unit trains of about 50 cars each that ran on the Atlantic Coast Line RR several hundred miles to the company's sawmills around Perry in north Florida. For a number of years three such unit log trains were run each week. I'm sure there were many similar operations in other parts of the US.
Mark
Several railroads gathered Christmas trees and transported them to depots for distribution. I think this included the Bangor and Aroostick (spelling?), the Rutland, and possibly the Central Vermont. On others the frieght crews did it unnofficially. These were small whole trees and generally carried in regular box cars or gondolas.
daveklepper I think this included the Bangor and Aroostick (spelling?), the Rutland, and possibly the Central Vermont
Dave, since you asked, it is Aroostook.From the first time I saw it, in a Guide, fifty-eight years ago, the name has fascinated me. Sad to say, I was never able to ride the Potatoland Special (or any other BAR train). I also missed out on all MEC and RUT trains. I did ride the CV, albeit on Amtrak trains, in 1984.
Johnny
Here in the west not far from where we live the giant redwoods can be found. There has been much interest in redwoods in Stockton recently. During the time before power saws it sometimes took men with cross cut saws more than a day to fell a single one of these giants and then mules were used to drag them to the logging RR where in some cases a single log filled a logging car for the trip to the mill. Our forefathers were some pretty rugged individuals when I see pictures of these loggers and the size of the trees they harvested.
Now to more recent times. Here in Stockton there has been some concern about storm drains and some sewers in certain old neighborhoods as they are over 100 years old and are made of redwood. With the economic downturn there is no money available for replacement. So city engineers are drilling down to these sewers and storm drains and taking samples of the redwood to see what kind of shape they are really in. The latest word is they should be good for another fifty years at least. I just happen to live in one of the neighborhoods that has these type sewers and storm drains. So I guess if I live another fifty years(rather doubtful) I might see them replaced at that time.
Al - in - Stockton
I'll preface my remarks with the disclaimer that I have little specific knowledge of this subject other than the cypress logging/shipping operation in Florida which I previously mentioned. I know that it was common at one time for logging railroads to haul saw timber from the woodlands either directly to a sawmill or to a body of water where the logs would be floated to the sawmill. Mills sprung up all over the forested regions of the US and Canada and later closed down as the forests were depleted. Whole towns whose economy was based on lumbering sprung up near these forestry operations and often became ghost towns as the timber was exhausted and the sawmills closed.
As the mills became dependent on more distant sources of timber I am fairly certain that it was common for saw logs to be transported to a railhead where theywere loaded onto rail cars of either a Class I or shortline for shipment to a far away sawmill. Of course today virtually all of this timber is shipped by truck.
50 years ago all over the south pulp wood would be shipped by rail to the paper mills. Wood yards were common sights along the rail lines in those regions where southern pines grew and were harvested. Most all southern railroads had large fleets of pulpwood cars on which the cut logs would be loaded at these woodyards. Today the wood yards and the pulp wood cars are nearly, if not all, gone and pulp wood is shipped directly from where it is cut to the paper mills by truck.
In recent times some of the surviving pulp wood cars have seen service hauling a far different commodity. I would often see whole unit trains of the old pulp wood cars loaded with huge steel slabs headed north on the KCS here at Shreveport. I believe this was foreign steel that was unloaded from ships at one of the Mexican Pacific or US Gulf ports and destined for rolling mills in the upper midwest. The cars all had either KCS or SR (that gives you an idea how old they were) reporting marks. It's probably been a year since I last saw one of these trains and if they are still running they nust be coming through my neck of the woods now in the wee hours of the morning.
KCSfan 50 years ago all over the south pulp wood would be shipped by rail to the paper mills. Wood yards were common sights along the rail lines in those regions where southern pines grew and were harvested. Most all southern railroads had large fleets of pulpwood cars on which the cut logs would be loaded at these woodyards. Today the wood yards and the pulp wood cars are nearly, if not all, gone and pulp wood is shipped directly from where it is cut to the paper mills by truck.
Another source of fiber for paper mills was woodchips from sawmills--which were carried in covered hoppers from the mills to the mills; some sawmills sent their chips by highway in, I think, 25 foot semitrailers.
Back to woodracks--I can claim to have taken a ride on one fifty-five years ago, with the permission of the conductor, who recognized me. Of course, we acknowledge that times have changed, and I would not advise anyone of any age to do such.
In the 90's...the 1990's...I saw logs being loaded on Conrail team tracks in Deposit, NY and Emporium, PA.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Plenty of interesting replies here. So, it would seem that my three flat cars with logs running on my small RR are not out of place. I shall sleep well tonight.
Thanks folks.
In August of 1977 when Great Lakes shipping was on strike and no ore boats were working and DM&IR had no ore to ship,DM&IR did run. I saw a train which carried a solid consist of logs powered by SD 9-s.
It's been six days so being one who answered the previous question I will ask a question.
Which US RRs owned trackage in Canada and which Canadian RRs owned trackage in the US and which provinces and states did this take place?
Keep in mind this is fifty years or older.
I'll take a stab, for starters anyway:
US Roads, Canadian track…Delaware and Hudson (Napierville Jct. To Montreal)
New York Central (Ottawa Div., Canadian Southern
Buffalo to Detroit).
Wabash Detroit to Buffalo
Great Northern
Canadian Roads, US track:
Canadian National: Grand Trunk; Grand Trunk Western; Central Vermont; Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific
A few more: GN & NP in B. C. and Man., SI in B. C., NYC in Quebec as well as in Ontario, BAR in N. B., DW&P in Ontario,
Which road crossed the St. Mary's River at Sault Ste. Marie (Henry, this is the way it is spelled on the map); the CP into Mich. or the Soo into Ontario? Or, did both cross?
CP in Maine, Vermont, Mont. (unless the interchange with the GN in Sweetgrass was right at the border), and N. D. (or did CP track end in North Portal at the Sask-N.D. border). the CN came into Port Huron, Mich. and into Vermont (do you consider the GT from Island Pond to Portland a Canadian or US road?), the CP entered Detroit on NYC trackage rights, so this does not count.
O M G ! as they say in computerese! How could I miss the CP flight across the Pine Tree state after having just read about it!!!!! And yes, the NYC Ottawa Div. did both Ontario and Quebec while the Canada Southern was Ontario.
I'll add C&O into Sarnia and Windsor by carferry, although C&O later got into Windsor by way of the Detroit River Tunnel.
The only one I see you have missed was the DW&P that crossed from Ontario to Minnesota.
I think it is pretty close to a tie so whoever wants the next question go to it. From what I have understood the GN and NP both operated into Winnipeg from the Canadian border via trackage rights and the GN did own some trackage in Winnipeg itself and remember a GN switcher was stationed at Winnipeg.
passengerfan The only one I see you have missed was the DW&P that crossed from Ontario to Minnesota. I think it is pretty close to a tie so whoever wants the next question go to it. From what I have understood the GN and NP both operated into Winnipeg from the Canadian border via trackage rights and the GN did own some trackage in Winnipeg itself and remember a GN switcher was stationed at Winnipeg. Al - in - Stockton
Edited to make it a little harder by asking for the roads.
Florida Special - PRR/RF&P/ACL
Kansas City-Florida Special - SLSF/SOU
Illinois Limited - CSS&SB
California Limited - ATSF
Texas Special - SLSF/MKT
Colorado Eagle - MP
Texas Eagle - MP/T&P
Ohio State Limited - NYC
Pennsylvania Limited - PRR
Arizona Limited - RI/SP
Texas Zephyr - C&S/FW&D
California Zephyr - CB&Q/D&RGW/WP
Dakota 400 - C&NW
Carolina Special - SOU
Penn Texas - PRR
Bay State (Massachusetts) - NH
Here is half my list today and I will post the other half tomorrow.
Alaskan – CB&Q/NP – Chicago –Seattle/Portland
Arkansas and Texas Express – Frisco – St. Louis – Oklahoma City
Arizona Limited - CRI&P/SP/Pullman - Chicago – Tucson-Phoenix
California Fast Mail – CRI&P?SP – Chicago – Los Angeles
California Limited - AT&SF - Chicago –Los Angeles
California Zephyr - CB&Q/D&RGW/WP - Chicago – Oakland
Californian - CRI&P/SP - Chicago – Los Angeles
Colorado & Kansas City Express - CRI&P - St. Louis – Denver
Colorado Eagle - MP - St. Louis – Denver
Colorado Express - C&NW/UP - Chicago-Denver
Colorado Flyer - AT&SF - Chicago – Denver
Colorado Limited - Alton/CB&Q - St .Louis – Denver
Colorado – New Mexico Express – D&RGW – Denver – Grand Junction
Colorado Special - C&S/FW&D - Denver – Dallas
Connecticut River Night Express – NYNH&H/CV/CP/QC – New York – Quebec City
Dakota 400 - C&NW – Chicago – Rapid City
Dakota Limited - M& St. L - Minneapolis- Watertown
Delaware Valley Express – PRR – Philadelphia – Trenton
Del – Mar – Va Express – PRR – Philadelphia – Cape Charles
Florida Arrow - PRR/L&N/ACL/FEC - Chicago-Cincinnati –Miami
Florida – Cuba Special - PRR /ACL/ FEC - New York – Key West
Florida East Coast Limited - PRR/ACL/FEC - New York – Miami
Florida Limited – FEC - Jacksonville – Palm Beach – Miami
Florida Special - PRR/RF&P/ACL/FEC - New York – Miami
Florida Sunbeam - PRR/SOU/SCL - Chicago – Cincinnati – Tampa
Floridan - IC/C of G/ACL/FEC - Chicago – Miam
i
Georgia Cracker - C of G - Savannah – Atlanta
Georgian – NC&STL/L&N - St. Louis – Atlanta later C&EI provided Chicago service
Idaho Express – UP – Salt Lake City – Pocatello
Idahoan – C&NW/UP Chicago – Portland
Illinois Limited- CNS&M- Chicago – Milwaukee
Indiana – Ohio Special – NYC – Detroit – Indianapolis
Iowa – Nebraska Express CMSTP&P – Chicago – Omaha/Sioux City
Iowa – Nebraska Ltd. - CRI&P – Chicago – Omaha
Kansas City – Florida Special - Frisco/Sou/FEC Kansas City – Miami
Kansas Limited – MP – St. Louis – Wichita
Kentuckian – C&O – Washington – Cincinnati
Kentucky Cardinal – IC – Louisville – Memphis
Louisiana Eagle –T&P – New Orleans – Ft Worth
Louisiana Limited – T&P – New Orleans – Ft. Worth
Louisiana Sunshine – MP – St. Louis – Shreveport
Louisiane – IC – Chicago – New Orleans
Maine Coast Special – BM/CV/CN – Portland – Montreal
Marylander – CNJ/RDG/B&O – Jersey City – Washington
Memphis – Californian - CRI&P/SP Memphis – Los Angeles
Michigan – MC – Chicago – Detroit
Michigan Boulevard – IC- Chicago – St. Louis
Michigan Central Limited –NYC - Chicago – New York
Michigan Express –PM/C&O – Detroit – Chicago
Michigan Limited – MC – Chicago – Detroit
Michigan Special – NYC – Cincinnati – Detroit
Minnesota 400 – C&NW – Mankato – Wyeville
Minnesota & Black Hills Express – CMSTP&P – Chicago – Deadwood
Minnesota Marquette – CMSTP&P – Chicago – Minneapolis
Minnesotan – CGW – Chicago – Minneapolis
Missouri Flyer – CB&Q – St. Louis – Kansas City – Lincoln
Missouri Limited – CB&Q – Chicago – Kansas City/St. Joseph
Missouri River Eagle - MP – St. Louis – Kansas City – Omaha
Missouri River Express – C&NW – Minneapolis – Omaha
Missourian – MP – St. Louis – Kansas City
Idahoan (UP) Cheyenne to Pocatello
Iowan (IC) Chicago to Sioux City
Kansas Cityan (AT&SF) Chicago to Kansas City
Kansas City Chief (AT&SF) Chicago to Kansas City
City of Kansas City (WRR) St. Louis to Kansas City
State of Maine (B&M) Lawrence, Mass. to Portland
Minnesotan (CGW) Chicago to Minneapolis
Nebraska Zephyr (CB&Q ) Chicago to Omaha
New Yorker (NKP, DL&W) Chicago to New York
New York Mail (NKP, DL&W) Chicago to New York
New York Express (GTW, CN, LV) Chicago to New York
New York Special (NYC) Chicago to New York
Oklahoma Rocket (CRI&P) Kansas City to Oklahoma City
Texas Rocket (CRI&P) Kansas City to Dallas
Texas Chief (AT&SF) Chicago to Galveston
West Texas Express (AT&SF) Amarillo to Lubbock
Utahn (C&NW, UP) Chicago to Los Angeles
Fast Flying Virginian (C&O) Washington to Cincinnati
http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-6714.jpg
George Washington (C&O) Washington to Cincinnati
West Virginian (B&O) New York to Parkersburg
I am trying to keep up with the above lists and combining them...hopefully sometime tomorrow I will be able to pass it on to all here. I will eliminate obvious trains named for people, rivers, etc. and include only those named for states.
CORRECTION: The Colorado Eagle should be MP and D&RGW, not just MP. And for a while the E-units did have both logos, not just MP
CORRECTION The Colorado-New Mexico Express went to Alamosa (as well as Grand Junction?) It was the overnight from Denver connection for the narrow gauge day train San Juan to Durango at Alamosa
State of Maine, NYNH&H, B&M, Maine Central, New York - GCT - Bangor (and Concord, NH)
Hoosierland Indiana Railroad (interurban) Fort Wayne - Indianapolis
I have taken all lists/answers and cut and pasted an integrated aplphabetical list to my ability. I have also added some notation for clarification where I felt necessary or wanted to inject opinion or question. Again, this is based on what has been offered by others with the execption of Ak Sar Ben, Empire State Express, New England States, and the New York Mail(DL&W) which are mine, and is done as a public service.
Alaskan - CBQ/NP - Chicago-Seattle
Ak Sar BenArizona Limited - RI/SPArkansas and Texas Express - Frisco - St. Louis-Oklahoma CityBay State (Massachusetts) – NH
Californian - CRI&P/SP - Chicago – Los AngelesCalifornia Fast Mail - RI/SP - Chicago-Los Angeles
California Limited – ATSFCalifornia Zephyr - CB&Q/D&RGW/WPCarolina Special – SOUColorado & Kansas City Express - CRI&P - St. Louis – DenverColorado Eagle - MP - St. Louis – Denver Colorado Express - C&NW/UP - Chicago-Denver Colorado Flyer - AT&SF - Chicago – Denver Colorado Limited - Alton/CB&Q - St .Louis – Denver Colorado – New Mexico Express – D&RGW – Denver – Grand Junction Colorado Special - C&S/FW&D - Denver – DallasConnecticut River Night Express - NH/BM/CV/CP/Quebec Central - New York-QuebecDakota 400 - C&NWDakota Limited - M& St. L - Minneapolis- WatertownDelaware Valley Express - PRR - Philadelphia-TrentonDel-Mar-Va Express - PRR - Philadelphia-Cape CharlesEmpire State Express - NYCFast Flying Virginian (C&O) Washington to Cincinnati Florida Arrow - PRR/L&N/ACL/FEC - Chicago-Cincinnati –Miami Florida – Cuba Special - PRR /ACL/ FEC - New York – Key West Florida East Coast Limited - PRR/ACL/FEC - New York – Miami Florida Limited – FEC - Jacksonville – Palm Beach – Miami
Florida Special - PRR/RF&P/ACLFlorida Sunbeam - RFP/SAL - Washington-Miami/St. Petersburg
Floridan - IC/C of G/ACL/FEC - Chicago – MiamiGeorgia Cracker - CoG - Atlanta-Savannah
Georgian – NC&STL/L&N - St. Louis – Atlanta later C&EI provided Chicago serviceIdaho Express - UP - Salt Lake City-Pocatello
Illinois Limited - CSS&SBIllinois Limited - North Shore - Chicago-MilwaukeeIndiana-Ohio Special - B4 - Detroit-Indianapolis
Iowan (IC) Chicago to Sioux CityIowa-Nebraska Express - Milwaukee Road - Chicago-Omaha/Sioux City
Iowa – Nebraska Ltd. - CRI&P – Chicago – OmahaKansas City-Florida Special - SLSF/SOUKansas Limited - MP - St. Louis-Kansas City-Wichita
Kentuckian – C&O – Washington – CincinnatiKentucky Cardinal - IC - Louisville-Memphis
Louisiana Eagle –T&P – New Orleans – Ft WorthLouisiana Limited - TP - New Orleans-Ft. Worth-El Paso
Louisiana Sunshine – MP – St. Louis – Shreveport Louisiane – IC – Chicago – New OrleansPenn Texas - PRRMaine Coast Special - BM/CV/CN - Portland-MontrealMarylander - CNJ/RDG/BO - Jersey City-Washington
Michigan Central Limited –NYC - Chicago – New York Michigan Express –PM/C&O – Detroit – Chicago
Michigan Special (NYC) Cincinnati to Detroit
Minnesota & Black Hills Express – CMSTP&P – Chicago – DeadwoodMinnesota Marquette - Milwaukee Road - Chicago-Madison-Minneapolis
Minnesotan (CGW) Chicago to MinneapolisMississippian - Gulf & Ship Island - Jackson-GulfportMiss Lou - IC - Jackson-New Orleans
Nebraska Zephyr (CB&Q ) Chicago to OmahaNew England States-B&A (NYC)
New Mexico, Utah and California Express - DRG/RGW - Denver-Ogden
New York & New Orleans Ltd. – PRR /Sou/W of A/ L&N – New York – New Orleans
New York & Washington & Seaboard Airline Express – PRR/RF&P/SAL/ New York – Miami
New York Boston Express - NYNH&H – New York – Boston
New York – Cincinnati – St. Louis Limited – B&O – New York – St. Louis
New York Day Express –B&A/NYNH&H – Boston – New York
New York Express – B&A/NYNH&H – Boston – New York
New York – Florida Ltd. – NYNH&H/PRR/RF&P/ACL/FEC – Boston - New York – Miami
New York Limited – PRR – New York – Atlantic City
New York Night Express – B&O/Read/JC – New York – Washington
New York Special – NYC- New York – Detroit
New York State Express – NYC – New York – Buffalo
New York – Washington – Atlanta – New Orleans Express – PRR/SOU/W 0f A/ L&N –New York – New Orleans
New Yorker – LV/PRR – Buffalo – New York
New Yorker – PRR – New York – St. Louis
New Yorker –DL&W, NKP
New York Mail-DL&WNew York State Express - BA - Boston-AlbanyOhio Special –NYC – Cincinnati - Detroit
Pennsylvania – Lehigh Express – LV/PRR – Buffalo – Philadelphia
Pennsylvania Limited – PRR – New York – Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania Special – PRR – New York – Chicago
Rochester – Minnesota Special - C&NW – Chicago – Mankato
Tennessean – Sou/N&W/Sou – Washington – Memphis
Texan – MP/T&P – St. Louis – Texas
Texas – Colorado Limited – C&S/FW&D – Dallas - Denver
Texas Limited – MP – New Orleans – Houston
Texas Ranger – AT&SF – Chicago – Galveston
West Texan – T&P – Dallas – El Paso
West Virginian – C&O – Washington – Cincinnati
Wyoming Valley Express – LV – New York – Wilkes Barre
Even editing, things are running together...but I hope it is helpful anyway.
daveklepper CORRECTION The Colorado-New Mexico Express went to Alamosa (as well as Grand Junction?) It was the overnight from Denver connection for the narrow gauge day train San Juan to Durango at Alamosa
According to the March 1915 edition of the Official Guide, the Colorado-New Mexico Express was a Denver-Grand Junction train on the Denver and Rio Grande. I wouldn't be surprised if we were both right, since train names and their associated endpoints were always in a state of flux on the Denver and Rio Grande and Rio Grande Western until the end of WWI.
Ok her is the balance of my list I posted yeaterday.
Nebraska – Chicago Limited – CB&Q – Lincoln – Chicago
New York Mail – DLW- Buffalo – New York
New York – Washington – Atlanta – New Orleans Express – PRR/SOU/W 0f A/ L&N –
New York – New Orleans
New Yorker – DL&W- Buffalo – New York
Ohio Special –NYC – Cincinnati - Detroit
Ohio State Limited – NYC – New York - Cincinnati
On Wisconsin - CMSTP&P – Madison – Milwaukee – Chicago
Oregon – Washington Limited – ORW&N – Portland – Seattle
St. Louis & Colorado Express – CRI&P – St. Louis – Denver
State of Maine Express – NYNH&H/MeC – New York – Portland
Texas Special – Frisco/MKT – Chicago – San Antonio
Texas Zephyr – C&S/FW&D – Denver – Dallas
All of the train Names With Washington in them refer to the city not the state and are not included
Ok There are a few others if I think about it I can come up with but I don't have the time right now.
Al in Stockton
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