I give up...what does this have to do with the current discussion
Nothing, It is RCDyre's turn to ask the question, unless he wishes to defer to the IC Central station poster.
Looks like the IC question got re-posted to a new topic. New question:
In a four railroad Pullman line between a major city and tidewater, this RR only got 28 miles.
I know there was a Toronto - Philadelphia sleeper that ran CN-LV-Reading. LV to Reading at Bethlehem, PA. Possibly at one time there was a Toronto - Atlantic City sleeper that ran CN-LV-CofNJ-PRSL? With Winslow Junction - Atlantic City the 28 miles?
The Atlantic City car ran Reading all the way. The route I'm looking for was important enough to get new cars after WWII, and all of the carriers were Class I.
Of course, New York - New Orleans on the Crescent, using PRR - Southern, A&WP,, WP&A, and L&N yield five carriers, and one of the two West POint route railroads probably figured for the short mileage. But since you only want four carriers, I guess in must be the Washington - Neew Orleans sleeper, deleting the PRR. The Piedmont Limited also carried lightwieght sleepers on this route for a time.
Ooops! The route is Jersey City to Texas with the short operation over the Central of New Jersey to Bound Brook, then Reading to PHilly, B&O to St. Louis via Washington, and then the MP to Texas.
You have one of the metro areas. However, unlike the Royal Blue line where the whole consist was carried over the joint line, in this case a separate train was operated for the 28 miles, usually with the through sleepers and a rider coach. For a further hint, at one end the short-haul carrier used a station its through trains didn't use. The RRs distance between its "own" stations is only 26.5 miles.
Besides, it was about 36 miles from J.C. to Bound Brook...
Postwar cars included Budd-built 10&6s which were painted...
daveklepper Of course, New York - New Orleans on the Crescent, using PRR - Southern, A&WP,, WP&A, and L&N yield five carriers, and one of the two West POint route railroads probably figured for the short mileage. But since you only want four carriers, I guess in must be the Washington - Neew Orleans sleeper, deleting the PRR. The Piedmont Limited also carried lightwieght sleepers on this route for a time.
As to the current question, I am at a loss. I do not think of New Orleans as Tidewater; I have thought that the coastal area of Virginia and North Carolina as being the Tidewater, especially since these two states are divided into Tidewater, Piedmont, and Mountain (South Carolina is divided into Low Country and Up Country, with the Fall Line generally being considered the dividing line). Perhaps Maryland is also considered to be Tidewater, though the area east of Chesapeake Bay is, as I recall, the Eastern Shore.
Johnny
This will probably give it away:
The entire route was 452 miles long, on four carriers:
226.6 miles
116.5 miles
28.0 miles
80.9 miles
The postwar cars were built by PS (Plan 4140 lot 6792) with three each owned by the RRs that handled the 116 and 80.9 mile segments. The cars were pooled with a Pullman line that ran only the 343.1 miles of the first two segments. The RR with the 226.6 mile segment owned a large pool of similar 10&6 cars. The RR that handled the cars for 28 miles had plenty of sleeping car trains of its own, going to very popular destinations.
Before anyone else comes up with it the TH&B handled sleepers for 38 miles on a Pittsburgh - Toronto line (P&LE, NYC, TH&B, CP), except Toronto isn't really tidewater...
The miles for each carrier certainly gives it away: New York City-Norfolk, over the PRR (you show too many miles, since your number includes going into Broad Street and back) (NYC-Washington), RF&P (Washington-Richmond Broad Street), ACL(Richmond Broad Street-Petersburg Appomatox), and N&W (Petersburg Appomatox-Norfolk). The N&W called the Petersburg-Norfolk train the CanninballI.
Deggesty has the correct answer (and the only one going to tidewater... and gets the next question. I shortcut my way through thte Official Guide to get the mileage, using the service table instead of the uncondensed table. The PRR table for the service in the 8/1957 OG gives the 226 figure. Both the PRR division timetable and the current Amtrak timetable agree on 224.
It looks to me like the RF&P and ACL segments may have been operated as a joint train at least some of the time.
rcdrye Deggesty has the correct answer (and the only one going to tidewater... and gets the next question. I shortcut my way through thte Official Guide to get the mileage, using the service table instead of the uncondensed table. The PRR table for the service in the 8/1957 OG gives the 226 figure. Both the PRR division timetable and the current Amtrak timetable agree on 224. It looks to me like the RF&P and ACL segments may have been operated as a joint train at least some of the time.
Back in the early fifties and before, there was a through overnight Pullman between Atlanta and a Gulf Coast city that is west of Tallahassee. What roads carried it, what was the Gulf Coast terminal, and where was the junction point?
Johnny,
I believe the Pullman route you have in mind was the one that ran between Atlanta and Panama City. Its route was CofG between Atlanta and Dothan and Atlanta & St. Andrews Bay between Dothan and Panama City. Equipment in 1954 was a 10 Sec, 2 Comp, 1 DR car. The northbound schedule was Lv. Panama City 7:00 pm, Ar. Atlanta 8:15 am; southbound it was Lv. Atlanta 8:00 pm, Ar. Panama City 7:50 am.
Mark
Just after I posted the B&O anwer, I remembered the overnight NY-Penn - Norfolk car, whcih I rode. I think though it went south on what was the Havana Special and became the Gulf Coast Special and got switched to the Pockey at St. Petersburg. I was PRR - RF&P - ACL -N&W when I rode it. I dont't know about which trains it took northbound, since I only rode it southbound. I could not get back to the web until now.
And I also rode the specific question's sleeping car overnight from Altanta to New Orleans on the Piedmont LImited, and this was a car added to the train in Atlanta and opened for early occupancy. It left on the West Point route, and I wish to defer on the correct names of the two railroads (Atlanta and West Point, and Atlanta and Western Alabama?), and then from Montgomery to New Orleans it was on the Lousville and Nashville. Of course, the Piedmont was primarily a Southern Railroad train, following the same route as the Cresent. But the Cresent was all-Pulllman, at least for a while, while the Piedmont was slower and carried coaches. If I remember, it was a day train to Washington - Atlanta, and overnight to New Orleans. The through sleeper from New York was carried on the Edison to Washington, if I remember correctly, and rode it once NY to Greensburg, NC..
While on the L&N, it picked up the equpiment from the Gulf Coast LImited at Flomaton and ran to New Orleans as a combined train. I also rode the Gulf Coast Limited, from Jacksonvile and from Tallahassee to NO.
So there were really three juction points, West Point, Montgomery, and Flomaton. The two West POint routes always pooled power, and often the L&N power did run through to Atlanta. There may have even been cases where West Point route and L&N ran multiple. But Southern power on the Piedmont did not run through to New Orleans. I never rode the Crescent all the way to New Orleans before Amtrack and the reroute via Birmingham as an all-Southern train.
The Atlanta - New Orleans car I rode was an L&N sleeper. The NY - Norfolk was N&W, but I understand PRR cars predominated.
But KCfan has the answer that you are looking for, I suspect, and I await his question.
KCSfan Johnny, I believe the Pullman route you have in mind was the one that ran between Atlanta and Panama City. Its route was CofG between Atlanta and Dothan and Atlanta & St. Andrews Bay between Dothan and Panama City. Equipment in 1954 was a 10 Sec, 2 Comp, 1 DR car. The northbound schedule was Lv. Panama City 7:00 pm, Ar. Atlanta 8:15 am; southbound it was Lv. Atlanta 8:00 pm, Ar. Panama City 7:50 am. Mark
daveklepper Just after I posted the B&O anwer, I remembered the overnight NY-Penn - Norfolk car, whcih I rode. I think though it went south on what was the Havana Special and became the Gulf Coast Special and got switched to the Pockey at St. Petersburg. I was PRR - RF&P - ACL -N&W when I rode it. I dont't know about which trains it took northbound, since I only rode it southbound. I could not get back to the web until now. And I also rode the specific question's sleeping car overnight from Altanta to New Orleans on the Piedmont LImited, and this was a car added to the train in Atlanta and opened for early occupancy. It left on the West Point route, and I wish to defer on the correct names of the two railroads (Atlanta and West Point, and Atlanta and Western Alabama?), and then from Montgomery to New Orleans it was on the Lousville and Nashville. Of course, the Piedmont was primarily a Southern Railroad train, following the same route as the Cresent. But the Cresent was all-Pulllman, at least for a while, while the Piedmont was slower and carried coaches. If I remember, it was a day train to Washington - Atlanta, and overnight to New Orleans. The through sleeper from New York was carried on the Edison to Washington, if I remember correctly, and rode it once NY to Greensburg, NC.. While on the L&N, it picked up the equpiment from the Gulf Coast LImited at Flomaton and ran to New Orleans as a combined train. I also rode the Gulf Coast Limited, from Jacksonvile and from Tallahassee to NO. So there were really three juction points, West Point, Montgomery, and Flomaton. The two West POint routes always pooled power, and often the L&N power did run through to Atlanta. There may have even been cases where West Point route and L&N ran multiple. But Southern power on the Piedmont did not run through to New Orleans. I never rode the Crescent all the way to New Orleans before Amtrack and the reroute via Birmingham as an all-Southern train. The Atlanta - New Orleans car I rode was an L&N sleeper. The NY - Norfolk was N&W, but I understand PRR cars predominated. But KCfan has the answer that you are looking for, I suspect, and I await his question.
First, the Havana Special could not interchange cars with the N&W at Petersburg because it did not go through the Appomatox station, but actually stooped at Ettrick, which was and is the Petersburg stop for through trains to the south.
Second, none of the timetables I have from that period show an Atlanta-Pensacola sleeper, which would, as you said, have been carried on the WPRte (Atlanta & West Point-Western Railway of Alabama) and the L&N with the interchange (I should have used this word instead of "junction") at Montgomery. The Piedmont left Washington about three in the morning, as I recall, so it was a day train only from about Lynchburg south, and it left Atlanta about 6:30 in the evening.
In my time, the Crescent carried coaches south of Atlanta, and after the Southern really reduced the number of trains Washington-Atlanta it carried coaches all the way--and after the Augusta Special wascombined with north of Charlotte, it carried Washington-Augusta coaches.
I do appreciate your reponse.
Dave, I was in a hurry when I responded to your post, and I was thinking of Pensacola and not New Orleans, which you named. For some reason, perhaps because New Orleans is so far up the Mississippi from the Gulf, I had not thought of it as a Gulf Coast port even though it is necessary for sea-going vessels to use the Gulf when using the New Orleans port.
The SAL/SCL-L&N operated the Gulf Wind in overnight service between Jacksonville and New Orleans and, as you said, it was carried in mainline trains between Flomaton and New Orleans; through most of the fifties, it was the Pan American westbound and the Piedmont Limited eastbound. After these two trains were combined (southbound only; northbound it was the Crescent that was combined with the Pan) south of Montgomery, you could say either of the two carried the Jacksonville cars from Flomaton. I hope I am not confusing in my description of the operation of these cars.
What was the longest continuous 3' gauge line in North America under the ownership of one railroad? Name its end points and the railroad.
Denver to Grand Junction via Pueblo and Marshall Pass. The line from Grand Junction to to Salt Lake City was owned by the Rio Grand Westerm and the line from Denver to Grand Junction was owned by the Denver and Rio Grande. A third rail was laid for standard gauge from Grand Junction to Salt Lake City for the Colorado Midland, which was part owner fo the Rio Grande Western. After WWI. the CM quite, the narrow gauge into Grand Junction was gone, and the Tennessee Pass standard gauge line from Pueblo and Denver had replaced the Marshall Pass narrow gauge line as the main line with only standard gauge to Salt Lake City and the two railroads merged into the D&RGW.
I am still asking what is the status of the D&RGW standard gauge Ridgeway-Grand Juncicton line?
daveklepper Denver to Grand Junction via Pueblo and Marshall Pass. The line from Grand Junction to to Salt Lake City was owned by the Rio Grand Westerm and the line from Denver to Grand Junction was owned by the Denver and Rio Grande. A third rail was laid for standard gauge from Grand Junction to Salt Lake City for the Colorado Midland, which was part owner fo the Rio Grande Western. After WWI. the CM quite, the narrow gauge into Grand Junction was gone, and the Tennessee Pass standard gauge line from Pueblo and Denver had replaced the Marshall Pass narrow gauge line as the main line with only standard gauge to Salt Lake City and the two railroads merged into the D&RGW. I am still asking what is the status of the D&RGW standard gauge Ridgeway-Grand Juncicton line?
Dave, I'll answer your question about the Ridgway - Grand Jct. line first. The last train into Ridgway ran in 1976 and the following year the rails were taken up from Montrose south to Ridgway. The Union Pacific still operates that portion of the line between Grand Jct. and Montrose.
The distance between Denver - Grand Jct.on the narrow gauge line via Marshall Pass was 424 miles. The line I am looking for in my question was considerably longer.
How about the Texas and St. Louis, a predecessor of the Cotton Belt? Should be around 550 miles from Tyler TX to the ferry landing opposite Cairo IL.
Not the T&StL; The NG line I'm looking for was quite a bit longer than 550 miles.
This may be a little too far south... The International Railways of Central America totalled over 700 miles in Guatemala and El Salvador.
Femont, Elkhorn & Missouri Valley? Became part of the Chicago & North Western from Omaha to Rapid City.
rcdrye This may be a little too far south... The International Railways of Central America totalled over 700 miles in Guatemala and El Salvador.
Not that one - the road I'm looking for was even longer. Is Central America technically a part of North America? I honestly don't know.
FlyingCrow Femont, Elkhorn & Missouri Valley? Became part of the Chicago & North Western from Omaha to Rapid City.
Buck, if I've added and subtracted CNW timetable mileages correctly the rail distance between Omaha and Rapid City is right at 550 miles. The line I'm looking for was considerably longer.
Here's a hint for you all to ponder over. The line was built to 3' gauge in the 1880's and was converted to standard gauge in the early 1900's. Now it is the main line of a major modern time railroad.
KCSfan rcdrye This may be a little too far south... The International Railways of Central America totalled over 700 miles in Guatemala and El Salvador. Not that one - the road I'm looking for was even longer. Is Central America technically a part of North America? I honestly don't know. Mark
I will guess that the line in question is the Clover Leaf (Toledo, St. Louis & Kansas City), between Toledo and East St. Louis. The line was absorbed by NKP and parts of it are operated by NS and various short lines.
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