To quote Dave Klepper: "Where did the decombination with the NYC through trains take place? The Green Mountain and Mount Royal did not run into Albany, and the NYC thorugh trains, except for the Laurentian, which was NYC-D&H via Troy at the time, did not run into Troy. So they must have had an operational stop, probably not for passengers, at Rensselaer, for the decombination operation."
The southbound Green Mountain and Laurentian were combined in Troy, and the southbound Mount Royal and a sleeper from D&H #8 (from Montréal) also were combined here. As to the northbound trains, the NYC's representation in the Guide simply states that the cars were caried in Rutland trains from Troy--with no menetion as to how they reached Troy from Rensselaer.
As to the Rio Grande reaching the Rio Grande River, the line down to Santa Fé crossed the Rio Grande River.
Johnny
daveklepper My question should be a snap. A number of North American railroads had place names that were never reached, or never reached directly. Rio Grande Southern, Denver and Rio Grande, Denver and Rio Grande Western, St. Louis San Francisco, New York Chicago and St. Louis, New York Westechester and Boston, Wiscassett and Quebec, New York Chicago Air LIne, and there are others. What well-known passenger train had multiple locations in its name but only served one directly, the others reachable, but only by connecting trains?
My question should be a snap. A number of North American railroads had place names that were never reached, or never reached directly. Rio Grande Southern, Denver and Rio Grande, Denver and Rio Grande Western, St. Louis San Francisco, New York Chicago and St. Louis, New York Westechester and Boston, Wiscassett and Quebec, New York Chicago Air LIne, and there are others. What well-known passenger train had multiple locations in its name but only served one directly, the others reachable, but only by connecting trains?
The Pennsy's Penn - Texas which served a number of cities in Pennsylvania but ran only as far west as St. Louis. Texas destinations were reached by connecting trains of the MoPac and Frisco.
Mark
YOu are correct up to a point, but there were through cars, and Pullman passengers did not need to change trains. Also, only two locations are given in the name, Pennsylvania and Texas. (Possibly only one destination, Texas, with Penn referring to the railroad, not the state, since the train originated in New York City.) The equally well-known train I am asking for has more than two destinations in its name. Give-away hint, not conting a "The", the multiple destination are contained in a train name having only three words. Yes, more than two locations in a train name with only three words.
Possibly a better railroad examples than the Denver and Rio Grande and D&RGW, as you did point out, would be the Missouri Pacific and the Texas Pacific and the Kansas Pacific, the latter folded into the UP long before the others.
I will count you as the winner if no one else comes up with the more accurate answer.
Again, not counting "The", there are three words in the Train's name and the name refers to more than two different locations. Further hint: The train was inaugurated as an all-Pullman heavyweight with observation car. It was modernized as an all fluted-side, mostly Budd-built, coach and Pullman streamliner, with a tapered end observation car. As train-offs occured, the observation car was dropped, and pick-ups and setouts occured, replacing other trains. One train replaced had the same end-point city destinations as the multiple-location-train name. And through cars on the replaced train's route continued to be handled, in part by this train, and in part by a train with only one word (plus the) in its name. The cacelled train's was a combination of both "our" train's name and the other remaining train that handled the through cars, also having three words plus "the."
Also about the time that the obs was dropped and pick-ups and setouts occured, the train lost its all silver fluted-side appearance. (In any case this was never true of the power.) Flat-sided painted cars were mixed in. But the diner continnued to give good service with reagonal specialties.
The train did not last until Amtrak, but a substitute service did.
Further hint: Stareted as all Pullman heavyweight, then coach and Pullman mostly Budd fluted side coach and Pullman with obs, then without obs and pick-ups and set-outs with flat-sided cars included.
Sorry, thsi was included in the previous posting. What might be interesting is to compare the westbound times of the Iraquois and the Advanced Empire Sttate Exp. to Albany from the previous station stop (Hudson or Harmon) with other trains' schedules to see how much time was lost in dropping cars for the Mount Royal and the Green Mountain.
daveklepper I think this was also true of the IT cars, which ran Springfield, IL - St. Louis, always, sometimes from Bloomington. (I don't think Peoria had IT sleeper service.)
I think this was also true of the IT cars, which ran Springfield, IL - St. Louis, always, sometimes from Bloomington. (I don't think Peoria had IT sleeper service.)
Dave,
At the time I read this I thought you were mistaken but I didn't have a chance until just now to check it out. The March 1937 OG shows Illinois Terminal trains # 88 & 89 , the Owl, as having sleeping cars running between Peoria and St. Louis. Two types of sleepers are shown in the equipment section: 10 section cars with upper and lower berths and "single bedroom" cars with private rooms. No sleepers are shown as originating in Springfield, Bloomington or points on the Danville line. That is not to say that sleepers didn't run at other times between St. Louis and any of these other cities.
OG stands to correct me. Do I need to give any more hints on the name of the train? All right, here is a give away: The train was inaugurated as a replacement for a separate section of an even more famous train. As an all-Pullman heavyweight and as a fully streamlined single consist coach and Pullman steamliner it skipped an important city's station, but when it set out picked up cars and lost its obs it stopped at the station regularly and setout in one direction and picked up on the other.
Don't you think it's time to close this one out? It's been 12 days since you posed this question and despite your several hints no one other than me has offered even a guess as to the name of the train you have in mind. My reply mentioning the Penn-Texas was posted on 8/11 which is now 11 days ago. The absence of any other replies makes it pretty obvious (to me at least) that no one knows the name of this train.
One more hint. Train name: Three words after "THE", but more than four places described.
Again: replacement for a section of a more famous train which continiued to have its own name.
Started as an all-sleeper heavywieght with traditional obs, then a coach and sleeper streamliner with round-end observation, and then a mixture of stainless and painted cars, without obs, and with drop off set setouts, one or two sleepers with the CITY end points as the train with the name but partly on a different route.
AND in its heavyweight and pure stainless streamliner days, did not have a passenger stop at an important city which later became both an important stop and a place to setout one way and pickup the other way through sleepers.
Always seved regional specialties in dining car.
Essential services continued for a while after the named train was discontinued.
Route served by Amtrak passenger services today. Except for a different terminal station in one end-point city and at the important citiy once bypassed.
KCFan: You can ask the next question and consider yourself the winner if you wish to do so. But I think you would in the end be happier by looking at all the hints given so far and coming up with the real right answer . Three words, but more than three locations included in the three words and serving only one of the locations. During the streamline era (possibly even during the heavyweight era) and after, not even through cars to the other locations mentioned in the name.
The answer is very, very obvious, and you really have no excuse for not coming up with the right answer now.
I'll probably feel foolish when you finally give the name of this train but for the life of me I can't think of what it might be. I can take a bit of solace in the fact that no one else seems able to identify it either.
It was obviously an overnight (maybe more than one night) train because of its Pullman consist. There weren't all that many RR's that ran Budd equipment so that narrows the possibilities a bit further. Given that info, I searched my latest pre-WW2 OG but I still couldn't find a train name that fits. I could probably find the train by searching my Jan '46 OG which I have on a two CD set. It's almost certain to have run on one of the roads listed in the first of those two CD's but as luck would have it I've misplaced and can't locate that particular CD. Unless I find that CD or have a brainstorm, I'll just have to give up and await you or someone else giving the name of this mystery train.
You are on the right track, but you can continue after WWII to get the full story. I'll give you one huge hint.
Six locations named in three words. Again, only one location served.
It would not have been possible to make a direct connection between this train and the Penn Texas. But the Penn Texas probabliy did have a through Pullman at one time or another, either for the public or a special move, to the one location served by my train and included in its name. And to the same station but via a different railroad,
daveklepper You are on the right track, but you can continue after WWII to get the full story. I'll give you one huge hint.
Dave, I might have been on the right track but I've run past a red board, through an open switch, hit a derail and am now on the ground waiting for the big hook. In short, my run is over and I give up.
Although I haven't chimed in, I have been eagerly following this thread (as I am sure others have as well!). I have gone through every train name I could come across (in the time I had to spend on this), I couldn't find anything even close. (Well, I thought City of Portland might be close, since "Portland" can describe several places, and it did IIRC originally bypass some cities later served, and had set-outs, and has 3 words -- and is not now served by Amtrak ... .)
Anyway, we may all say "Well, duh!" when we hear it, but I for one am anxious to hear the answer!
And, I think we need a special award for Dave for coming up with a stumper!
I am amazed at all of you! Six locations in three words. The train is the New England States!
Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New Hamshire, Vermont, and Maine, with only Massachusetts served.
What happened to your thinking caps?
Well, duh!
I knew I shouldn't have sent my thinking cap to the cleaners!
The New England States - well shut my mouth. Just goes to prove none of us were thinking outside of the box.
I'/ll accept the Penn Texas, however, and wait for the next question.
Dave's last question gave me the idea for the one that follws.
The corporate names of many railroads consisted only of city names and usually contained the word "and". The rails of most of these roads actually reached the cities in their name, e.g. Chicago, Burlington & Quincy. However there were others like the SL-SF whose closest point to San Francisco was Avard, OK. Name as many railroads as you can which didn't reach one or more of their namesake cities and name the city (or cities) which they missed.
Confine your answers to Class I roads that existed as corporate entities from 1935 forward.
Mark.... in terms of actually being the FRISCO - that is FRISCO trains on FRISCO rails...Avard is correct, but not in terms of actual land holdings. Based on that, the SL-SF actually made it as far as Mojave, CA.
This according to Santa Fe property documents provided by a friend who is now long retired from that road but was in charge of roadway improvements at the time over the old A&P stretch of the ATSF.
Now to your question.
I'll start off with the Toledo, Peoria & Western - Toledo was not served by this road.
Next:
Minneapolis & St. Louis - no St. Louis
Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie - not to the Soo until the outright inclusion of the DSS&A
Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis - Memphis would be the terminus, not St. Louis
Akron, Canton & Youngstown - Akron, but not Canton or Youngstown.
Detroit, Toledo & Ironton - with Toledo bypassed a few miles west for Delta, OH.
Spokane, Portland & Seattle - nope, no Starbucks for the SP&S as Seattle was not on the line.
The Nashville, Chattanooga & St, Louis railway did, in fact, reach St. Louis for three months, January 1 through April 1, 1880, through the lease of the St. Louis and Southeastern Railway. On April 1, 1880, the L&N purchased the road and terminated the lease, but for three months the NC&StL did, in fact, serve all the citiesin its name.
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
The Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis Railway did, in fact, reach St. Louis for three months, January 1 through April 1, 1880, throug the lease of the St. Louis & Southeastern Railway. On April 1, 1880, the L&N purchased the road and terminated the lease, but for three months the NC&StL actually did serve all the cities in its name.
New York Chicago Air line Railroad (small portion in Indiana that did get built became part of the Gary streetcar system)
St Louis San Francisco (Frisco)
New York Chicago and St. Louis (Nickel Plate)
Lehigh and New England (New England reached only by NYNH&H connections and Poughkeepsie Bridge)
Rio Grande Southern (did not reach Rio Grande River, only via connections via the D&RGW narrow guage)
Atlantic and Pacific (This was a separate railroad, but a subsidiary of either the AT&SF or the Friscio)
Niagra Catherans and Toronto, reached Toronto only via CP conenctions
Buffalo Hamilton and Toronto, reached Buffalo only via NYCentral connection at Suspension Bridge
New York Westchester and Boston, served only NYCity, Westchester, and southern Connecticut, Boston only via the NYNH&H
Texas Pacific, Missouri Pacific, Kansas Pacific, none reached the Pacific Ocean, but all now part of Uncle Pete.
Denver and Salt Lake (Moffat Road, and everyone knows its history)
13 enough?
Never thought about it, but L&HR only touched the Lehigh River and never got further than Maybrook, NY toward the Hudson River. But nither Lehigh nor Hudson refer to city or state names....
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis & Omaha - Subsidiary of C&NW, never made it to Chicago.
Spokane, Portland & Seattle - missed Seattle entirely
Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo - didn't get to Toronto or Buffalo
My 2 cents worth:
Atlanta & St Andrews Bay. I do not think it got to Atlanta. And was actually a class I for a few years.
Also did the Delaware Lacakawanna & Western ever go to Lackawanna, NY? It certainly did not goto the state of Delaware just the river.
Or just for last New York Ontario & Western . Went to Lake Ontario not the Canadian provience.
Thx IGN
narig01 My 2 cents worth: Atlanta & St Andrews Bay. I do not think it got to Atlanta. And was actually a class I for a few years. Also did the Delaware Lacakawanna & Western ever go to Lackawanna, NY? It certainly did not goto the state of Delaware just the river. Or just for last New York Ontario & Western . Went to Lake Ontario not the Canadian provience. Thx IGN
Delaware and Lackawanna referred to the river valleys and not of cities.
The Atlanta & Stl. Andrews Bay Railway was a class one railroad until some time in the 1960's when the revenue threshold for that classification was raised.
While the road did not serve Atlanta, GA, the executive offices for the A&StAB were located there for several years in the 'teens.
KCSfan Confine your answers to Class I roads that existed as corporate entities from 1935 forward. Mark
Well, I was just following instructions. Also, Mark said "Cities"..... ok.... I can think of dozens of geographical locations not reached but that is also not his question, which brings up the Nickel Plate Road.
-or-
The New York, Chicago & St. Louis. My NKP buddies tell me that the "New York" in the title does not refer to the City of New York, but to the state.
Just my dime's worth
Everyone but Buck Dean, Henry and Carl (CSSHegwisch) needs to go back and read the question carefully. To be eligible for inclusion a RR must have been a Class I that existed as a corporate entity sometime from 1935 forward which had only cities in its name - No states, lakes, rivers, bays, westerns, southerns, Atlantic or Pacifics!
Credit goes to the following: In the case of duplicates the first one to name a given road gets the credit. No credit is given for the SL-SF since it was one of the examples given in my original question.
Buck Dean - M&StL, NC&StL, AC&Y, SP&S.
Buck, the DT&I did actually reach Toledo which was MP 16.6 on a branch line that left the main at Petersburg Jct. Ste. Sault Marie was at the end (MP 501.9) of the Soo's line from the Twin Cities. Trains #7&8 ran between those terminals carrying through coaches and a sleeper.
Davekeepler - NKP. I'll accept this answer but I'm inclined to agree with Buck Dean that the New York in its name referred to the state not to the city.
Carl (CSSHegwisch) - CStPM&O, TH&B.
These are the only answers submitted so far that meet the specifics of the question. Keep trying as there are some fairly large RR's and several smaller Class I's that haven't been mentioned yet.
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