ZephyrOverland K4sPRR: Congratulations, you are correct. Next question is yours. The Palmetto.... This name had been utilized on ACL (and SCL) trains from the pre-WWI years all the way to Amtrak. Unfortunately, it was never the "belle of the ball" train as such - it was always a secondary run. There were short periods of time when the Palmetto Limited was nearly equal to the ACL first tier trains, but when traffic downturns occurred, the train was re-regulated to a supporting train. As a result, the train had a number of southern termini. Name the cities that the Palmetto Limited (or Palmetto) used as its southern terminus.
K4sPRR: Congratulations, you are correct. Next question is yours.
Congratulations, you are correct. Next question is yours.
The Palmetto....
This name had been utilized on ACL (and SCL) trains from the pre-WWI years all the way to Amtrak. Unfortunately, it was never the "belle of the ball" train as such - it was always a secondary run. There were short periods of time when the Palmetto Limited was nearly equal to the ACL first tier trains, but when traffic downturns occurred, the train was re-regulated to a supporting train. As a result, the train had a number of southern termini.
Name the cities that the Palmetto Limited (or Palmetto) used as its southern terminus.
Johnny
Deggesty In the fifties, Wilmington, Savannah, and Augusta. Earlier (1930 specifically), Tampa, Jacksonville, Thomasville, and Brunswick were also southern termini.
In the fifties, Wilmington, Savannah, and Augusta. Earlier (1930 specifically), Tampa, Jacksonville, Thomasville, and Brunswick were also southern termini.
Savannah, yes
Tampa, yes
Jacksonville, yes
Wilmington, Thomasville, Brunswick, Augusta - I'm going to say no. I should have specified the southern termini of the train itself, not just through cars. I also thought that Wilmington and Augusta would be included, but if you look at the SCL and ACL timetables of the 60's, the condensed schedule shows a schedule to Augusta and Wilmington, with through cars to the former, but those schedules are connecting trains. The train called the Palmetto ran short of those destinations.
I know of three more destinations.
Columbia, Fayetville and possibly Norfolk?
Mark
KCSfan Columbia, Fayetville and possibly Norfolk? Mark
nope, nope and nope......
ZephyrOverland Deggesty: In the fifties, Wilmington, Savannah, and Augusta. Earlier (1930 specifically), Tampa, Jacksonville, Thomasville, and Brunswick were also southern termini. Savannah, yes Tampa, yes Jacksonville, yes Wilmington, Thomasville, Brunswick, Augusta - I'm going to say no. I should have specified the southern termini of the train itself, not just through cars. I also thought that Wilmington and Augusta would be included, but if you look at the SCL and ACL timetables of the 60's, the condensed schedule shows a schedule to Augusta and Wilmington, with through cars to the former, but those schedules are connecting trains. The train called the Palmetto ran short of those destinations. I know of three more destinations.
Deggesty: In the fifties, Wilmington, Savannah, and Augusta. Earlier (1930 specifically), Tampa, Jacksonville, Thomasville, and Brunswick were also southern termini.
CORRECTION - there are only two, not three additional destinations. In rechecking my sources for this question one destination which I thought was a terminal for the train was only a destination for through cars.
WAG: Columbia, SC , Spartanburg SC & Atlanta, Ga?
Thx IGN
narig01 WAG: Columbia, SC , Spartanburg SC & Atlanta, Ga? Thx IGN
nope, nope and nope.....
hint -----> don't stray from the main line...
The September, 1913 ACL timetable shows the northbound Palmetto Limited as the train from Key West, and the southbound Palmetto had through cars to Port Tampa.
The Florida and West Indian Limited was the southbound train to Key West, and had through cars from Port Tampa to New York northbound.
Deggesty The September, 1913 ACL timetable shows the northbound Palmetto Limited as the train from Key West, and the southbound Palmetto had through cars to Port Tampa. The Florida and West Indian Limited was the southbound train to Key West, and had through cars from Port Tampa to New York northbound.
Ironically, Key West was the answer I had dropped a couple postings ago. Yes, the ACL gives the impression that the Palmetto Limited and Florida and West Indian Limited ran to/from Key West. But, in reality, south of Jacksonville the FEC operated the Over-Sea Limited (or Oversea Limited or Over Sea Limited depending on the source) as an independent train between Jacksonville and Key West. The Over-Sea Limited carried the following in mid 1917:
- 2 New York-Key West Pullmans from the ACL
- 1 New York-Key West Pullman from the SAL
- 1 New York-Key West baggage car from the ACL
- 2 Washington-Key West coaches and a diner from the ACL
- 1 Jacksonville-Key West Pullman
- 1 Palm Beach-Key West Pullman
- 1 Miami-Key West Pullman
- 1 Jacksonville-Key West mail car
I don't know the reason for the competing names for the New York-Key West service. In the FEC section of the August 1913 Official Guide, the FEC gives the impression that the Over-Sea Limited ran as a through train to New York. Furthermore, the FEC operated the Over-Sea Limited under various permutations during its existence. As mentioned earlier, it ran as an independent Jacksonville-Key West train. It also was the moniker of the ACL New York and Florida Special south of Jacksonville. Another season it ran as a combined train for the ACL New York and Florida Special and the SAL Seaboard Florida Limited, again the ACL and SAL advertising their trains as through to South Florida utilizing their individual names. By 1917 the existing schedule for the Over-Sea Limited became part of the newly created Havana Special.
Going back to your posting Johnny, Key West...nope. There are still two more destinations.
At one time the Palmetto did run through as a through train to St. Pete and Tampa. I am sure of it, and the name may have continued on the connecting train to Sarsota or Bradenton or Manatee.
I believe that in the heavyweight era, before the Champions, the Palmetto was actually the premieir West Coast Florida train, and the Havana Special the East Coast, during the summer whenn the Florida Special did not operate. The Palmetto was a two nights and a day between train between NYC and St. Pete and Tampa. Although it may have bypassed Jackosnville at one time, when I first traveled to Florida by train, at a time when both the East Coast Champion and the West Coast were in operation, like the West Coast Champion, the Palmetto was actually two trains south of Jacksonville, a separate one to Tampa and a separate one to St. Pete. Both had diners to serve breakfast into those cities, although one or the other may have been diner-lounge equpped. The St. Pete train did not terminate in St. Pete but continued to Sarasota, after dropping some cars. The Tampa train dropped cars at Lakeland, which then became a separate train to Manatee and Bradenton. So at the time there were three southern terminals, Bradenton, Sarasota, and Tampa. Service on the Bradenton and Sarasota lines was cut to one round-trip a day, and that trip then connected only with the West Coast Champion, and so one destination was lost, and St. Pete replaced Sarasota. Then, after a while, the train was cut back just to Jacksonville. Possibly St. Pete lost the service before Tampa. Under SCL, believe the train went only to Jacksonville. Shortly afterward, Tampa and St, Pete were served only via Wildwood and the SAL line, if my memory is correct. The train did at one time carry through cars to Montgomery, but I don't know if the train to Montgomery., AL, carried the Palmetto name.
correction: The SCL did continue to provide service to Tampa via the ACL line through Orlando and Lakeland. But this continued over former SAL tracks to St. Pete, instead of St. Pete being served through Ocala. Service between Tampa and St. Pete was replaced by a bus connection. Amtrak did revive a rail connection but reverted to bus. But this was long after the Palmetto was cut back to Jacksonville.
daveklepper At one time the Palmetto did run through as a through train to St. Pete and Tampa. I am sure of it, and the name may have continued on the connecting train to Sarsota or Bradenton or Manatee. I believe that in the heavyweight era, before the Champions, the Palmetto was actually the premieir West Coast Florida train, and the Havana Special the East Coast, during the summer whenn the Florida Special did not operate. The Palmetto was a two nights and a day between train between NYC and St. Pete and Tampa. Although it may have bypassed Jackosnville at one time, when I first traveled to Florida by train, at a time when both the East Coast Champion and the West Coast were in operation, like the West Coast Champion, the Palmetto was actually two trains south of Jacksonville, a separate one to Tampa and a separate one to St. Pete. Both had diners to serve breakfast into those cities, although one or the other may have been diner-lounge equpped. The St. Pete train did not terminate in St. Pete but continued to Sarasota, after dropping some cars. The Tampa train dropped cars at Lakeland, which then became a separate train to Manatee and Bradenton. So at the time there were three southern terminals, Bradenton, Sarasota, and Tampa. Service on the Bradenton and Sarasota lines was cut to one round-trip a day, and that trip then connected only with the West Coast Champion, and so one destination was lost, and St. Pete replaced Sarasota. Then, after a while, the train was cut back just to Jacksonville. Possibly St. Pete lost the service before Tampa. Under SCL, believe the train went only to Jacksonville. Shortly afterward, Tampa and St, Pete were served only via Wildwood and the SAL line, if my memory is correct. The train did at one time carry through cars to Montgomery, but I don't know if the train to Montgomery., AL, carried the Palmetto name. correction: The SCL did continue to provide service to Tampa via the ACL line through Orlando and Lakeland. But this continued over former SAL tracks to St. Pete, instead of St. Pete being served through Ocala. Service between Tampa and St. Pete was replaced by a bus connection. Amtrak did revive a rail connection but reverted to bus. But this was long after the Palmetto was cut back to Jacksonville.
As a previous poster mentioned, Tampa was an endpoint for the New York Palmetto Limited early in its career. But during the late 1910's, Jacksonville became a southern endpoint for this train, but it handled a number of Pullmans that were handled on other ACL trains south of Jacksonville. Like the FEC, ACL did a lot of shuffling of cars in Jacksonville, transferring a number of through cars to composite trains running to Tampa and St. Pete and other west Florida points. For a time there was a Jacksonville-Tampa Palmetto Limited, but the name disappeared from the connecting service. The running numbers remained and a number of Jacksonville-West Coast Florida local Pullmans were also carried on this train. The connecting train left several hours after arrival of the New York train, but northbound there was a tighter connection. As far as I know, there was no St. Pete Palmetto Limited, just thru cars that were transferred to a Jacksonville-St. Pete train. In contemporary St. Pete newspapers of the time, there were mentions of the Palmetto Limited leaving or arriving St. Pete, but in reality the train they were referring to was a connecting St. Pete-Tampa train that was operated by the Tampa and Gulf Coast Railroad. Pullmans to Brandenton and Sarasota were carried on connecting trains from Tampa.To sum up, yes Tampa/Port Tampa was an endpoint, but not St. Pete. The answers I have so far are Savannah, Jacksonville and Tampa. I am looking for two more destinations.
ZO, I take it that Port Tampa was not a destination for the Palmetto Limited in 1913, even though the public timetable shows it so for one direction.
As to going via ACL from St. Petersburg to Tampa and then south, I wonder what routing was used--especially since all the tt's and Guides I have after 1930 show Savannah as the southern terminus for the train.
The only direct rail route between St. Pete and Tampa belonged to the SAL, not the ACL. ACL trains to St. Pete did not go through Tampa and visa versa. The ACL route to Tampa was through Orlando and Lakeland as used today by Amtrak, The route to St. Pete was through Ocala. In the SCL days service was provided for a time to St. Pete through Tampa, which was the way the SAL did it, splitting from the Miami trains at Wildwood
I used certain of the connecting trains referred to in the answer to my blog, and I assure you people did generally refer to them as the Palmetto. But then the connecting train for the West Coast Champion when I was in Manatee on business was also referred to as the Champion, so you have a point. MOm moved to St, Pete after my dad passed on, and later I did work in the southern Florida area. I have a sister living in Sarasota and niece and her children.
In terms of extensions and contractions, possibibilities might include Orlando, or Charleston (which did have drop sleepers at one time or another) or even Rocky Mount or Wilson. Florence has been mentioned and turned down? Was the name ever used on the connecting train at Florence to Augusta and Atlanta? And what about the connection from Waycross to Montgomery?
YOu are telling me I was in error in thinking the Sarasota train left from St. Pete. Was it the SAL Sarasota train that left from St. Pete? Or is my memory really off?
The very last time I was in the area, Amtrak only ran to Tampa and had a bus to St. Pete. This still true?
daveklepper YOu are telling me I was in error in thinking the Sarasota train left from St. Pete. Was it the SAL Sarasota train that left from St. Pete? Or is my memory really off?
Dave, I had two aunts who lived in Bradenton and my parents also moved there in 1956. I rode the trains to and from there and Chicago numerous times during the 1942 - 1959 time period. Both the ACL and SAL trains ran from Tampa, not St. Pete, to Sarasota and of course the SAL continued on further south to Venice. The post-war ACL train consisted of a "Jim Crow" combine and a through Sarasota - New York coach and sleeper which ran north of Tampa in the West Coast Champion. I don't recall the exact year, but in the late 40's or early 50's a through Sarasota - Chicago coach and sleeper was added which ran north of Jacksonville in the City of Miami and Southwind. The SAL train consisted of a gas electric doodlebug with seating for Black passengers and a through Venice - New York coach and sleeper which ran in the Silver Meteor north of Tampa.
When the two roads merged to become the SCL the former SAL train to Venice was discontinued and the line was severed by the removal of the trestle/swing bridge across the Manatee River between Palmetto and Bradenton. The Tampa - Sarasota train continued to run over the former ACL line until the end of passenger service.
Originally the Bradenton station stop on the SAL line was in the town of Manatee and a short, freight only, stub ran from there to the SAL freight house near downtown Bradenton. The town of Manatee ceased to exist (in the late 1940's IIRC) when it was annexed to become a part of Bradenton. As a railfan Manatee was interesting to me becuse there was a crate mill there that had an ancient wood burning 2-6-2 that switched the mill trackage and the interchange with the SAL.
Dave, my wife needed access to the computer so I logged off before relating an anecdote illustrating just how casual railroading was on the lines south of Tampa. The Manatee River separating Bradenton and Palmetto was over a mile wide and was salt water at that point. The ACL crossed the river on a wooden trestle with a swing bridge about a third of the way across from the Bradenton side and adjacent to the swing span there was a bridge tender's house built on pilings. The SAL had a similar bridge about a half mile to the east. Immediately after leaving the ACL's Bradenton station the train pulled slowly onto the bridge and stopped at the bridge tender's house just long enough for him to hand up a newspaper wrapped bundle of fresh caught seafood (probably mullet) to each of the porters on both the New York and Chicago bound Pullmans. This scenario was repeated on the SAL line. A few nights later those fish would grace dinner tables in both Harlem and on Chicago's south side.
[snip] quoting KCSfan: "When the two roads merged to become the SCL the former SAL train to Venice was discontinued and the line was severed by the removal of the trestle/swing bridge across the Manatee River between Palmetto and Bradenton. The Tampa - Sarasota train continued to run over the former ACL line until the end of passenger service."
Mark, the SCL continued running the passenger train into Venice. In February of 1971, I finished adding all the then possible Florida passenger miles by riding to and from both Naples and Venice, spending a night in each town. The SCL was then using the SAL's engine that had powered the SAL's train between Venice and Tampa (it did not look as nice as it did when it was in SAL colors).
Deggesty ZO, I take it that Port Tampa was not a destination for the Palmetto Limited in 1913, even though the public timetable shows it so for one direction. As to going via ACL from St. Petersburg to Tampa and then south, I wonder what routing was used--especially since all the tt's and Guides I have after 1930 show Savannah as the southern terminus for the train.
Johnny,
I'm looking at the August 1913, Official Guide which contains ACL schedules dated July 13, 1913 and the condensed schedules show #85 and #82, the Florida and West Indian Limited, operating between New York and Port Tampa. In the consist section the F&WIL had among others, through Pullmans to Port Tampa and Washington-Jacksonville coaches. Number 83 and 86, the Palmetto Limited, is shown running only to Jacksonville with no through cars to Port Tampa/Tampa and only a northbound Key West-New York through Pullman. The schedule may have changed in September, 1913. The Palmetto Limited Port Tampa schedule that you refer to, is that a condensed schedule or a detailed schedule? What does the consist listing show for the Palmetto Limited? The schedule you are referring to may be referencing Pullman through car lines and presenting it as a through schedule, which was commonly done by railroads.
As to your second point, I do not mention anything about a St. Petersburg-Tampa-southwest Florida routing. When the Palmetto Limited was cut back to Savannah, as far as I know no Florida cars were ever transferred in Savannah.
daveklepper The only direct rail route between St. Pete and Tampa belonged to the SAL, not the ACL. ACL trains to St. Pete did not go through Tampa and visa versa. The ACL route to Tampa was through Orlando and Lakeland as used today by Amtrak, The route to St. Pete was through Ocala. In the SCL days service was provided for a time to St. Pete through Tampa, which was the way the SAL did it, splitting from the Miami trains at Wildwood I used certain of the connecting trains referred to in the answer to my blog, and I assure you people did generally refer to them as the Palmetto. But then the connecting train for the West Coast Champion when I was in Manatee on business was also referred to as the Champion, so you have a point. MOm moved to St, Pete after my dad passed on, and later I did work in the southern Florida area. I have a sister living in Sarasota and niece and her children. In terms of extensions and contractions, possibilities might include Orlando, or Charleston (which did have drop sleepers at one time or another) or even Rocky Mount or Wilson. Florence has been mentioned and turned down? Was the name ever used on the connecting train at Florence to Augusta and Atlanta? And what about the connection from Waycross to Montgomery? YOu are telling me I was in error in thinking the Sarasota train left from St. Pete. Was it the SAL Sarasota train that left from St. Pete? (IT WAS FROM TAMPA) Or is my memory really off? The very last time I was in the area, Amtrak only ran to Tampa and had a bus to St. Pete. This still true? - IT STILL IS THE CASE
In terms of extensions and contractions, possibilities might include Orlando, or Charleston (which did have drop sleepers at one time or another) or even Rocky Mount or Wilson. Florence has been mentioned and turned down? Was the name ever used on the connecting train at Florence to Augusta and Atlanta? And what about the connection from Waycross to Montgomery?
YOu are telling me I was in error in thinking the Sarasota train left from St. Pete. Was it the SAL Sarasota train that left from St. Pete? (IT WAS FROM TAMPA) Or is my memory really off?
The very last time I was in the area, Amtrak only ran to Tampa and had a bus to St. Pete. This still true? - IT STILL IS THE CASE
You are correct that the Seaboard had the St. Petersburg-Tampa line but only since 1927. Until 1927, the Tampa and Gulf Coast owned that stretch of track which makes sense about the ACL Palmetto Limited references in the St. Petersburg newspapers even though it ran to Tampa/Port Tampa in the late 1910's. There were also references about the SAL Floridian in the same papers a few years later, when that train existed as a Jacksonville-Tampa run. The schedule times given in the articles correspond to the Tampa and Gulf Coast service which existed at that time.
I don't doubt that people may have informally called the connecting train the Palmetto in St. Petersburg, but I'm basing my answers on railroad-issued documentation.
Despite all this, you got the final two destinations that I was looking for.
Charleston - This was the southern terminus in the midst of the depression, 1931-1933.
Florence - (This was not mentioned previously.) This was the official endpoint of the Palmetto in the 1960's, when it carried through cars to Augusta via a connecting train and it connected with a Rocky Mount-Wilmington train.
The other three answers, Savannah, Tampa/Port Tampa, and Jacksonville, was submitted by Johnny, so he gets the next question.
Thanks to all who responded.
ZO, the timetable I referred to has all the passenger service the ACL had, as of 9/22/13.
Here is the full listing for the Palmetto Limited, from the condensed tt at the beginning of the folder.
No. 61-83 [61 must be the PRR or RF&P number]–All-steel Vestibuled Pullman Drawing-Room Sleeping cars from New York to Charleston, Jacksonville and Pt. Tampa, from Washington to Jacksonville and Washington to Wilmington, N. C. Through coaches between Washington and Jacksonville.
No. 86–All-steel Vestibuled Pullman Drawing-Room Sleeping cars from Jacksonville to New York, Key West to New York, and from Charleston to New York. Drawing-Room Compartment Car Key West to New York. Through coaches between Jacksonville and Washington.
The condensed tt does not show the number of the train from Tampa to Jacksonville, which was #82–the number of the Florida and West Indies Limited, which carried the through cars from Port Tampa to New York.
I did not remember noticing that the Palmetto was curtailed at Florence in the sixties; I did remember that the Augusta sleeper at the end was carried in the Champion north of Florence (I rode, in coach, from Denmark to Baltimore in March 0f 1968).
I will work on a new question and try to submit it soon.
New question
Train names come and go; train routes come and go.
We have just had quite a discussion about one of the Atlantic Coast Line trains that was in service at least by 1913, and lasted until in the sixties.
There were two more East Coast service trains named in the September, 1913, timetable that no longer existed in the sixties–the Florida and West Indian Limited and the Coast Line Florida Mail. Also listed were two Midwest-Florida trains that no longer existed, even in the fifties–the Montgomery Route (St. Louis-Jacksonville via the L&N and the ACL) and the South Atlantic Limited (Cincinnati-Jacksonville via the L&N, CG, GS&F and ACL and Indianapolis-Jacksonville via the PRR, L&N, CG, GS&F and ACL).
Besides the Palmetto Limited, there were two Midwest- Jacksonville trains that continued into the sixties (though one was greatly abbreviated before it was completely dropped). Name them, and their routes, both in 1913 and in 1960. If you can name the final successor to the South Atlantic Limited and its Florida termini, you can claim extra credit. For a corona corona, give the 1893 routing of one of the two 1913 trains (It did not run to and from the Midwest, but it did follow some of the routing of the 1913 train); it has a surprising (to me, at least) variation in its route
Railroad documentation does not always jibe with what stationmasters may have posted in chalk on the departure board. A case in point may be the through Pullmans from Penn-NYC carried by PRR NY-Washington expresses which had their own PRR names. If the sleepers were on the rear, the east gate of the Penn Station track would have a sign for the Pullman connection or connections (sometimes there were two, and SR connections would have a green sign, ACL purple, C&O or SAL organge?? with train names) while the west gate would show the PRR name for the train (Tuscan red with gold lettering, of course).
Did any of the SAL runs to Sarasota start of St, Pete and go to Tampa before picking up connecting cars or passengers and heading south to Sarasota?
daveklepper Did any of the SAL runs to Sarasota start of St, Pete and go to Tampa before picking up connecting cars or passengers and heading south to Sarasota?
There was, at one time, through service St. Pete-Miami, which, of course ran through Tampa and Plant City and connected with the Miami Palmland at West Lake Wales; by 1950 this had been cut back to Tampa-Miami.
Rephrasing of the new question.
There were two Midwest- Jacksonville trains operatied in 1913 that continued into the sixties (though one was greatly abbreviated before it was completely dropped). Name them, and their routes, both in 1913 and in 1960. A third Midwest-Jacksonville train in 1913 was the South Atlantic Limited. If you can name its final successor and its Florida termini, you can claim extra credit. For a corona corona, give the 1893 routing of one of the two 1913 trains (It did not run to and from the Midwest then, but it did follow some of the routing of the 1913 train); it has a surprising (to me, at least) variation in its route.
OY, I must have used a bus and blocked that trip from my memory!
I seem to recall a C&EI-L&N-ACL train "The Dixiland", Chi to Jacksonville. The Royal Palm was, in my memory, a Central (Big Four) train to Cincinnati and then ran on the Southern. Is Kansas City still in 'The Midwest"? The Kansas City - Florida Special ran on the Frisco to Birmingham via Memphis, and even though I rode it, I am unsure of the routing from Birmingham, although I think it did run on the Southern.
daveklepper I seem to recall a C&EI-L&N-ACL train "The Dixiland", Chi to Jacksonville. The Royal Palm was, in my memory, a Central (Big Four) train to Cincinnati and then ran on the Southern. Is Kansas City still in 'The Midwest"? The Kansas City - Florida Special ran on the Frisco to Birmingham via Memphis, and even though I rode it, I am unsure of the routing from Birmingham, although I think it did run on the Southern.
Dave, you found part of the name of one of the Midwest-Jacksonville trains that was in service in1913 and lasted into the sixties. However, the Dixieland did not exist until 1954 when the Dixie Flagler (put into service in 1940 in conjunction with the City of Miami and the South Wind) was renamed Dixieland; the Dixieland died in 1957, and the South Wind and City of Miami began alternating day service.
As to the Royal Palm, it seems to have been primarily a Southern train, with through service to/from the Midwest over the NYC; the cars for south of Jacksonville were carried on either the FEC or SAL.
The KC-Fla Special was, indeed handled by the Frisco west and north of Birmingham--and the Southern carried it beteen Birmingham and Jacksonville. As with the Royal Palm, any through cars south of Jacksonville were handled by the FEC or SAL.
Keep the work up; you my remember both of the trains.
Was the IC Seminole one?
daveklepper Was the IC Seminole one?
Have you been able to come up with the full name of the other train? As to a great deal of its route, its name may give a clue.
I think the Seminole used the route and the City of Miami, which I rode, and yet I canot remember the exact routing. This was after the FEC strike, so of course we used the SAL-Aurubrndale-ACL through Orland route to Jackosnville, and then some combination of ACL and Georgia or CofG to Birmingham, but I do not remember the exact route. On the other hand, it may have run via Waycross and Montgomery, then the L&N north.
YOu mentioned that one of my earlier guesses had one part of a name right. I assume this was the Dixie Flyer, which you pointed out was a much later train. Possibly the word Flyer was correct. Was there ever a Cincinnati Southern Flyer? Or just a Southern Flyer. Piedmont Flyer? Any of these would have been the Southern south of Cincinnati with through sleepers to Chi and possibly Detroit via the NYC north of there.
I don't have access to the reference material most others have, and web reaction is too slow to do much serious research. I did ride lots of trains, but not very often between the midwest and Florida
Well, Dave, you are the only one who has responded to my question, and you have named (one of them indirectly) the two trains from the Midwest that the ACL was still taking into Jacksonville in 1913, and was still doing so into the sixties: the Seminole Limited (which in later years was simply the Seminole) and the Dixie Flyer.
The Seminole was carried by the IC between Chicago and Birmingham, the CG between Birmingham and Albany, and the ACL between Albany and Jacksonville.
All the trains with "Dixie" in their name used the Dixie Route to Florida, which was C&EI Chicago-Evansville, L&N Evansville-Nashville, NC&StL Nashville-Atlanta, and then various routings Atlanta-Jacksonville. (In 1957, the NC&StL was merged into the L&N.)
In 1913, the routing was CG Atlanta-Macon, GS&F Macon-Tifton and ACL Tifton-Jacksonville. After the GS&F was taking into the Southern fold, the CG carried the train Atlanta-Albany and the ACL Albany-Jacksonville. In the early fifties, the ACL began handling the train all the way between Atlanta and Jacksonville (no more station change in Atlanta).
In 1893, the Dixie Flyer was a Nashville-Jacksonville train that was handled by the NC&StL Nashville-Atlanta, CG Atlanta-Macon, GS&F Macon-Lake City, Fla., and Florida Central & Penisular (which became a part of the SAL) Lake City-Jacksonville. I know no detail on the change to interchanging with the ACL at Tifton.
As the sole entrant, who came up with at least part of the answer, I declare you to be the winner.
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