I ...think....
Royal Blue
Royal Special
Royal Limited...which became B&O #1 & 2; the National Limited.
FlyingCrow I ...think.... Royal Blue Royal Special Royal Limited...which became B&O #1 & 2; the National Limited.
A very good guess - the only problem is that the Royal Blue did not exist as a passenger train name until the 1930's, whereas the other two names existed 20 years earlier. The names I'm looking for did exist concurrently. But you're barking up the right tree.
Ill give this another day before I give the answer.
ZephyrOverland For a brief period, the B&O had a "mini-fleet" of sorts, in that they ran several "regional" trains on the Royal Blue Line that had similar names. One of the train names was reused on a B&O long-distance train several years later. What were the name of the three trains?
For a brief period, the B&O had a "mini-fleet" of sorts, in that they ran several "regional" trains on the Royal Blue Line that had similar names. One of the train names was reused on a B&O long-distance train several years later. What were the name of the three trains?
The answers I was looking for were;
National Express
National Special
National Limited
All three trains operated between Jersey City and Washington around the 1917-1918 period. When the railroads were taken over by the USRA, the names were dropped. Only the National Limited name was resurrected as a Jersey City-St. Louis train in 1925.
FlyingCrow inadvertently mentioned the National Limited as a sidebar in his answer so he has the honor of asking the next question.
Take it away FlyingCrow!
Wow...I thought "close" only counted in horseshoe's , hand grenades, and depth charges !
Question: Who were the first 3 major shareholders of FRUIT GROWERS EXPRESS?
FlyingCrow Wow...I thought "close" only counted in horseshoe's , hand grenades, and depth charges ! Question: Who were the first 3 major shareholders of FRUIT GROWERS EXPRESS?
Johnny
How about WP, NP, and GN?
[quote user="Deggesty"]
Question: Who were the first 3 major shareholders of FRUIT GROWERS EXPRESS? Chicago & Eastern Illinoise, New Haven and the N&W?
Chicago & Eastern Illinoise, New Haven and the N&W?
Buck, close also counts in dancing. (Missed seeing you in Jacksonville last weekend, by the way.)
Shooting from the hip, I'd say ACL, SAL and PRR
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
I'll guess UP, SP, M-K-T. - al
Probably SP and UP and maybe Sante Fe. Unless one of the eastern roads like PRR or NYC got involved as recipient then SF did not.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
I have several Fruit Growers car on my Southern Railway System. These were al factory made by Intermountain. Southern was one too. They use them outside Charleston, SC on Johns Island were I gew up.
These were use for tomato crop.
Wow...everyone jumped on this but Johnny got it first. N&W, NH and C&EI. And, yes, it was a group of strange bedfellows for sure.
The floor is all yours, sir.
Bob...I went to the show late in the PM then directly to the annual meeting banquet.
FlyingCrow Wow...everyone jumped on this but Johnny got it first. N&W, NH and C&EI. And, yes, it was a group of strange bedfellows for sure. The floor is all yours, sir. Bob...I went to the show late in the PM then directly to the annual meeting banquet.
New question: in 1911, the IC participated in through overnight service between Chicago and the Twin Cities. What road took the cars into and out of the Twin Cities? What was the junction? Which Twin City was the terminal (don't let the name of the other road deceive you)?
Buck and Johnny, please forgive me. --Mike
Excerpt from Fruit Growers Express Reefer by Harold W. Russell (July 2009 Model Railroader)
The Fruit Growers Express Co. (FGE) was a railroad-owned refrigerator car company that served shippers in the east and south. It was incorporated on March 18, 1920 as the result of a ruling by the Federal Trade Commission that forced Armour & Co., a meat packer, out of the produce shipping business. The Atlantic Coast Line, Baltimore & Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Southern were the original stockholders, but by the end of 1920, the Chicago & Eastern Illinois; New York, New Haven & Hartford; and Norfolk & Western also joined the new company.
Excerpt from Report of the Federal Trade Commission on Private Car Lines (1919)
It has already been stated that the stockholders of Armour & Co. hold the stock of the Fruit Growers Express Inc. in the same proportion as their holdings of stock in the packing company. The circumstances of the incorporation of the Fruit Growers Express Inc., in 1914 have also been explained. The company was organized for the purpose of owning and operating the fruit and vegetable cars and the icing stations of the Armour Car Lines. The financial operation of the Fruit Growers Express Inc. has also been discussed in chapter 3. It was there shown that this company has been doing a profitable business. This chapter deals with the company's relations with the carriers and shippers, from the standpoint of the public interest.
Although the Fruit Growers Express Inc. has been incorporated only since 1914, the interest of Armour & Co. in the furnishing of refrigerator cars and refrigeration service for the transportation of fruits and vegetables dates back to a much earlier period. In the early nineties Armour & Co. began to experiment with the operation of a line of refrigerator cars for the carrying of California fruits to the East. As the business increased more cars were obtained either by purchase of car lines already existing or by the building of new cars until several thousand cars were employed in that traffic by the beginning of the present century. The Armour cars in the fruit and vegetable traffic have been operated under various trade names, namely, Fruit Growers Express Inc., Continental Fruit Express, Kansas City Fruit Express and Tropical Refrigerator Express. The cars belonging to the Armour interests in this business are now operated under one name - Fruit Growers Express Inc. Early in this present century the Armour business from the West began to decline, for certain of the western carriers, namely, the Union Pacific and Southern Pacific Railroads, jointly, the Wabash and Missouri Pacific Railroads, jointly, and the St. Louis-San Francisco Railway formed subsidiary car companies of their own for the handling of perishable products. As these companies grew and developed the western railroads became less dependent upon outside parties such as the Armour Car Lines for refrigerator cars in the transportation of the western products. Armour & Co.'s part in the handling of the fruit and vegetable traffic from the West has now declined until it is a very minor part of the fruit and vegetable business handled by the Armour (F. G. E.) cars.
As the western traffic declined, however, a volume of business was being built up in the new growing districts of the Southeast. Carriers there were not equipped to handle the growing business and the Armour cars were used in that section as early as the nineties. This traffic in the Southeast has grown until it is now the most important part of the business handled in the 5,660 cars owned by the Fruit Growers Express, Inc.
The larger part of the Fruit Growers Express business has been that of furnishing railroads with cars upon which the usual mileage has been received. Certain cars, however, have been leased for various periods of time to individual firms, a list of which is printed as Exhibit 3.
The chief means by which the Armour interests have built up the business of furnishing refrigerator cars and refrigeration service for the transportation of perishables has been the "exclusive contract." Under the terms of such a contract the car line agrees to furnish the contracting railroad company with suitable cars sufficient to handle the business that is offered to it by shippers on its lines and the carrier in turn agrees to use no cars other than those furnished by the private car company. The reasons given for this arrangement were that perishable crops are in most instances seasonal, and that while railroads may enjoy a heavy tonnage for a few months of the year in perishable freight it is probable that the special equipment provided for this movement would be idle for a long period, since the railroad which provided itself with sufficient cars to meet the maximum demand could not use refrigerators other than as box cars during the remainder of the year; and that a corporation, on the other hand, which made it a business to provide such equipment would be able to keep it employed during the entire year by sending the cars to those particular sections needing them from time to time. These exclusive contracts grant a complete monopoly of the business to one car company. Armour & Co. secured an exclusive contract with the Southern Pacific Railroad in 1897 and with other western carriers at later dates. These contracts in the West did not remain in effect for any great length of time, however, for, as previously stated, the western roads began to provide their own refrigerator cars about the beginning of the present century and soon had little need for outside equipment.
In the Southeast an exclusive contract was secured with the Central of Georgia Railway in 1898. Other roads followed at later dates. At the present time the Fruit Growers Express Inc. has exclusive contracts with seven of the southeastern roads, including among them the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad, the Seaboard Air Line Railway, and the Florida East Coast Railroad, three of the principal roads transporting fruits and vegetables from this section. Until recently the Fruit Growers Express Inc. held contracts with 29 railroads of the Southeast and two in the Middle West. It had a practical monopoly of the business of transporting fruits and vegetables from the Southeast, and the situation is therefore worthy of detailed consideration.
Deggesty New question: in 1911, the IC participated in through overnight service between Chicago and the Twin Cities. What road took the cars into and out of the Twin Cities? What was the junction? Which Twin City was the terminal (don't let the name of the other road deceive you)?
According to The Great Yellow Fleet, by John White, there were ten founding stockholders on Fruit Growers Express, none of which was N&W, NYNH&H, or C&EI. These roads bought in to the company about six months later. White does not name all the initial shareholders, but says they included Southern Railway (whose Henry Spencer - son of Samuel Spencer - was the first president,) Pennsylvania Railroad, Atlantic Coast Line, and Baltimore & Ohio.
Minnneapolis & St. Louis; Albert Lea MN; Saint Paul.
adkdivfan Minnneapolis & St. Louis; Albert Lea MN; Saint Paul.
As to the Fruit Growers Express, I relied on Wikipedia (which does not always tell everything as it should), which does not mention any of the early stockholders, but simply says that N&W, NYNH&H, and C&EI were major stockholders by the end of 1920. Reference is made to The Great Yellow Fleet, but apparently the contributor did not think it necessary to give earlier detail. A question: why name any stockholder if the first ones are not named? Thank you, Mike and Bob, for providing more detail.
adkdivfan, take it away.
Looking forward to adk's question
Very informative thread!
Excerpt from Passenger Trains of Yesteryear on the Minneapolis & St. Louis by Frank P. Donovan, Jr.
When the Rock Island constructed its line to St. Paul in 1902, the M&StL routed its Chicago trains over Illinois Central south of Albert Lea. To celebrate the occassion a new train fittingly called the "North Star Limited" replaced the somewhat shabby "Cannon Ball." But railroad men still referred to Nos. 5 and 6. According to Mr. A.B. Cutts of Minneapolis, who was the road's passenger agent at the time, a contest was held and the sum of twenty-five dollars was offerred for the best name. Vice-president L.F. Day and Mr. Cutts selected "North Star Limited" out of approximately a thousand entries. The train split into two sections south of Albert Lea, one going to Chicago, the other over the Iowa Central to Albia, and thence on the Wabash to St. Louis.
http://collections.mnhs.org/MNHistoryMagazine/articles/30/v30i03p232-241.pdf
Following the discontinuance of the Olympian Hiawatha in 1961, what two naned Milwaukee Road trains (that were not Hiawathas) carried Super Dome cars until their sale to CN in 1964? The route used was 1 mile shorter than Southern's Salisbury-Asheville route of the early 70's, therefore quite possibly the shortest regular dome route operated.
adkdivfan Following the discontinuance of the Olympian Hiawatha in 1961, what two naned Milwaukee Road trains (that were not Hiawathas) carried Super Dome cars until their sale to CN in 1964? The route used was 1 mile shorter than Southern's Salisbury-Asheville route of the early 70's, therefore quite possibly the shortest regular dome route operated.
Would the trains be the Chicago-Madison Varsity and Sioux?
Yes.
When did the Madison trains begin carrying the dome cars? I have not checked all of my Milwaukee Road timetables, but in November of 1962, the only trains other than the Hiawathas with domes assigned were two unnamed trains to, and from, Milwaukee (one car was able to cover the service) (#'s 12,23, 27, & 58); this seems to have been the shortest regularly assigned dome car service.
My family and I spent a day in August of 1972 going from Biltmore to Salisbury and back. It was quite a ride, especially when we were going through the loops. Going, the train was turned on the wye at Salisbury, and coming back, the train was turned on the wye in Biltmore before letting thepassengers off--and then backed to, I think, the yard in Asheville.
Don't have time to dig out timetables but seem to recall that the City of Denver trains operated with Super domes for a period of time after the Olympian was discontinued and before sale to the CN.
Al - in - Stockton
passengerfan Don't have time to dig out timetables but seem to recall that the City of Denver trains operated with Super domes for a period of time after the Olympian was discontinued and before sale to the CN. Al - in - Stockton
Ok, next question....
Ruby Keeler would be dancing up a storm in this train....
Name, RR and endpoints, please.
"West Coast Al, IIRC the Santa Fe streamliners all had to have "Chief" in the title. "
Sixty years ago, when I was in elementary school, I would see ads for the Santa Fe in the National Geographic. Those ads always named 5 trains: The Super Chief, The Chief, The El Capitan, The Grand Canyon, and The California Limited. As someone else said, there were several lesser streamliners that were not Chiefs. And The Grand Canyon, The El Capitan, and The California Limited were transcontinental trains that were not Chiefs either.
42nd Street Special......PRR..... NY-DC
From the movie with Dick Powell. 1933, I believe....she was married to Al Jolsen at the time.
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