Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

[daveklepper]

Possdibly some more survives.  In any case, I think the name has always been pronounced "Wooster."

[Overmod]

Worcester, like part of the sauce, right?

With the section between Ayer and the namesake city being the 'Worcester Main' that is most of what survives?

[daveklepper]

Since the Eastern Railroad became the Eastern Division, the Worcesta(Sp?), Nashua and Portland may be the name of the division you are requesting.  But, in any case, that is precisely the track you are looking for, even if the division name is different.

[rcdrye]

The Fitchburg Division crossed the line I'm looking for.  Fitchburg runs east-west, this one ran southwest-northeast.

The East wind, State of Maine and Bar Harbor all used the piece of this route that still remains, but used the Stony Brook and Western main line to head for Portland.  Remember, I'm looking for the entire name.

[daveklepper]

The Western route still exists as the main line used by Amtrak's Downeaster service, and MBTA commuter servicr as far as Haverhill.

The Eastern has been cut back to Newberryport, with MBTA sevice, including a branch to Cloucester.

The Fitchberg Division is what you are looking for, reaching Maine, via a connection from Ayer, still a major freigiht route, and once used by the State-of-Maine Express and the East Wind.

[rcdrye]

First time I got it with a one word answer...

Up until the 1920s the Boston and Maine had three routes from Massachusetts to Maine.  The Eastern and Western Routes remained until the 1940s (and remain as names in "T" territory)  Name the third route, whose name always included the middle city, and which became known as the "ghost division" as its seniority roster was merged with the rest of the B&M.  A short piece of it remains as an important part of the current Pan Am Railway.

[daveklepper]

Again, government, not the tax-paying private enterprise itself.  Bpth are evidences of Government interference in the transportation business, long before subsidies were necessary.

Isn't  there a warning sign there?

In any case, rc of course has the next question.

[Overmod]

rcdrye

 

daveklepper

And Capitol Transit?   Who?

Congress.

PL 84-757, DC Transit, Inc. Franchise Act.  Ought to be in the Federal Register in mid-1956.  Quoted in this, which may have quite a bit of incidental detail:

https://books.google.com/books?id=lY5KAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA222&lpg=PA222&dq=public+law+84-757&source=bl&ots=8k-BuptrdI&sig=ACfU3U2FtFf04jl6BfQAOcZHQQpfA1d92A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjxMq2-ufxAhVgVTABHQgfBlYQ6AEwDHoECCwQAg#v=onepage&q=public%20law%2084-757&f=false

[rcdrye]

daveklepper

Both, yes, government, not the private industry. And Capitol Transit?   Who?

Congress.

[daveklepper]

Both, yes, government, not the private industry.

And Capitol Transit?   Who?

[rcdrye]

daveklepper

Again, who deceded TATS' Manhattan streetcars must be replaced by buses?

The most commonly heard story says it was Fiorello LaGuardia, though it's far more likely that Robert Moses was involved.

[daveklepper]

Again, who deceded TATS' Manhattan streetcars must be replaced by buses?

The decision was made  in 1941, but the conversion was delayed by WWII and began October, 1946, completed (for Manhattan conduit-only lines) June, 1947.  (In passing, from Jack May, Slaughter Huff wanted to save WWII profits to pay for the new buses, but was ousted by stockholders who wished immediate cas.  Under new management, TARS converted all lines  to bus, with the last Yonkers streetcars running in 1952, and TARS went bsankrupt because of continued need for time payments for the buses.)

Unsure about the dates for Capitol Transit, but note that thec Du Pont Circle Underpass was completed in 1948 or 1949, with its new conduit track.  Who deceded that Roy Chalk's excellently-maintained all-PCC streetcar system had to be  replaced by buses?

[daveklepper]

Not the answer I expected.  What was the reason for all three?

[Overmod]

daveklepper

Can you suggest a  real parallel in freight railroading?

If it's what I think it is, one parallel might be the Atglen & Susquehanna.

[daveklepper]

Capitol Transit in Washington, DC, and Third Avenue Transit System in Manhattan, The Bronx, and Westchester Couonty, had in common the use of both overhead wire and conduit current collection.

In addition, the cnversion of Third Avenue Transit System's eight Manhattan  streetcar lines that ran through WWII, and the final closure of Roy Chalk's Capitol Transit streetcar lines for bus replacement, also had smething in common.  What was it?

Can you suggest a  real parallwl in frieght railroading?

[rcdrye]

You go ahead.

[daveklepper]

I also remember my first Boston - Concord, and Concord - Boston trips, age 5, 1937, with parents.  Not the Allouette; insgtead, the typical of the period open-platform coaches, which were in use on the B&M until the Budd's came.  But I enjoyed the end windows of those cars when insisting on riding the lasr car.  But on the return, a box or refrigerator car was attached at the rear at Manchester or Nashua spoiling my fun.

We had used the Boston night-boat from and to New York with dinner on the boat.  Apparently, this was less expensive then Pullman on the Owl.  Ot maybe my parents just enjoyed a boat ride.  Most of my many NY - Concord trips were in a State-of-Maine sleeper.  But Boston = concord om the Allouette.  

Do you wish to ask the next question, since my answer was not 100%?

[daveklepper]

Pool with B&M’s only E8 and its E7 fleet.  B&M’s only E8 came as the last locomotive delivered as part of an E7 order.  The B&M used E7s and its one E8 in the pool with CP and, as well, for its own Boston – Portland service, on occasion running thru on the Maine Central to Bangor, but no further.  All other B&M passenger service was with F-units, plus the one Flying Yankee, then also Alco and GP-7 road-switchers, until the Budd RDCs arrived.  But the B&M still had some Mogulss and Pacifics on rush-hour Bston commuter runs as late as 1951 or 1952.

The Allouette and Red Wing, when not powered by a CP E8, would more likely have a B&M E7, rather than the one E8, and the E8 on occasion was used to Portland, possibly to Bangor.

The first time I rode the Allouette, it was powered by a CP Pacific and has a CP heavyweight brass-rail observation-parlor at the rear end.  But then I only rode it as far as Concord, NH.  Age 13, 1945. Around 1 July.  (Campers' special non-air-conditioned coach)

Several trips afterward, up to and including the B&M-CP Budd 2-car arrangement at the end via both White  River and Wells River Junctions.

The one time I rode overnight Boston - Montreal on the B&M-CP Red Wing, the CV New Englander was still running.  But this was a separate train only between Concord and White River Jc.  North of White River, I believe it was combined with the Montrealer-Washingtonian, and its green cars stood out against the red B&M and CP Red Wing cars between Boston and Concord.

Of course I should have known CP at St. Johnsberry. Probably was asleep when passing through several times.

[rcdrye]

St. Johnsbury was served by Canadian Pacific and Maine Central.  The StJ&LC operated the station and switched the yard for the other railroads, a legacy of the line's beginning as part of the Portland and Ogdensburgh.  CP bought the line north of Wells River VT in 1926.  B&M and CP had various pool arrangements for freight and passenger power in both steam and diesel eras.  In the diesel era, CP used mostly Alcos built in Schenectady instead of MLWs, and also purchased three E8s (to pool with B&M's only E8) for the Allouette and Red Wing.

[daveklepper]

 

I thoough that Wiki's map showed a Bangor & Aroostic branch to St. Johnsbury, b ut was mistaken.   Apologies.

I had mentioned the B&M earlieapr and thought you were looking for two more.

[rcdrye]

B&M trains from Boston to Montreal called at St Johnsbury.  BAR never quite made it to Vermont...

[daveklepper]

Bangor & Aroostick, anf Maine Central

[Overmod]

daveklepper

Overmod.  This is Vermont, not Massachusetts or Rhode Island or New Hampshire!

I saw Newport and went right to the wrong conclusion.

[rcdrye]

And what railroads (besides the StJ&LC) served St. Johnsbury Union Station?

[daveklepper]

St. Johnsberry.

The Short Line had sevweral names, but was known as the St, Johnsberry and Lake Champlain for a time.  Aside from the B&M, CN and/or Grand Trunk.

[daveklepper]

Overmod.  Thid ic Vermont, not Massachusetts or Rhode Island or New Hampshire!

[Overmod]

Would stations at ports for the Fall River and other passenger ship/boat lines qualify as 'Union stations' if served by more than one company?

[rcdrye]

South of Newport.  Station operated by a local short line, but serving what were then two class Is.  Most passenger equipment some shade of maroon, though green crept in later.

[daveklepper]

Not certain about the details:  I believe the B&M sod lines running into Canada.  Possibly the station you are requesting is one in Newport or sherbrook.  Not clear if the station existed as jointly used by CN or Grand Trunk before or after 1926.

[rcdrye]

Windsor is correct.  Claremont Jct. was and is in the city of Claremont NH.  The stub of the B&M/Claremont & Concord still goes to downtown Claremont from "The Junction". Before 1930 streetcars of the Claremont Ry. (Light & Power) also called there.

The other one I'm looking for was served by trains shown in the B&M public timetables, even though the line it was on was sold by B&M in 1926. The line also served one of the non-Union Station stations I mentioned earlier.