One of your answers is correct. Please reread the question and look at all your answers and you will see which one exactly fits the definition. You are missing some of the well-known ones that have been discussed in many railfan publications and books, particularly those devoted to electric railways in all forms. Again, some of the answers should be obvious to those who know transit and electric railway history.
All these moves were on electrified tracks. All were on tracks regularly used by regularly scheduled pasenger service for at least 95% of the specific runs, for some the entire run. I rode either rapid transit trains and/or trains run by the railroad for all these cases, at least partly on the same tracks used by these five or six services. Not more than one coiuld be duplicated exactly today because of abandonments and relocations. But one can be done exactly.
I mentioned one railroad had a crack intercity streamliner that once used steam for a portion of its run, and now I will add that one of the other railroads that saw passenger carrying rapid transit cars on its line once scheduled a fast train specifically to connected with that intercity express train.
1.... The railroad with the streamliner: This "passenger service" with rapid transit-cars lasted only a short time and was definitely a one-time affair. It could be repeated today with one end-point slighly different, and the old endpoint never did see any other (to my knowledge) trains with passenger inside, although many many passed near by, still do, and hopefully will continure forever, under electric power.
2. The railroad that had a connecting train to that then-steam-hauled limited reached it over tracks of the rapid transit lines that in turn operated or supplied rapid transit equipment for three of the passenger-carrying services of the question. One was a regularly service, and there was a long laps of this service, but then it was reinstated with the rapid transit system owning the entier route. The end point stations for the reinstated service are the same. Not true for any intermediate stations, The second was for a particular group of people for several years, and there were many of them. With their special tickets, they could also ride regular trains with the railroad's regular equipment if schedules were more convenient for them. Could not be done today. The third was for one day only, beginning early in the morning and lasting until evening. Special tickets were sold, but anyone could buy them, but nealy all were from one specific segment of the population, and again there were many. Many regular trains were rerouted to avoid interference with the special service. Could not be done today.
3. This railroad continued to provide passenger service over the line after the rapid transit system's use of its line ceased, but some intermediate poinrts were not served and fares were higher. Very little of the trackage used by this service remains today, even though part of the area served is served by rapid transit. The little bit of rapid-transit trackage used by this service that remains is heavily used by other services.
4. This service had alternating trains of rapid transit and railroad mu equipment, with the railroad's equiipment a more modern design. Today, one can go completely by rapid transit between the same endpoint stations, but a short connecting link that permitted through service has been missing a long time.
Do you need further hints?
4. Hudson and Manhattan Lines (later PATH)?
More hints would be really helpful.
Hudson and Manhattan had its own RofW through Mnhattan Transfer, and anyway, it was defined legally as a railroad until PATH took over, and no longer used railroad trackage. NYW&B was a suburban railroad. It did not run on any rapid transit trackage, but did have across-platform-transfer to the 3rd Ave. Elevated's Willis Ave. Shuttle. SIRT was a subsidary of the B&O and ran on B&O-SIRT tracks, with no break in ownership at any point.
Hint: All railroads that are part of the national freight system are railroads. The South Shore is an interurban line, but it is also a railroad. Ditto, Sacramento Northern - was. Ditto Waterloo CederFalls and northern and also Crandic. Possibly Indiana Railroad, but definitely not Cincinnati and Lake Erie and cerainly not West Penn None of these figiure in the answer, however. There is a tie to the elevated train tunnel question also.
The demonstration rides, which took place about every two hours all day, had the R32's taking passenge from GCT to temporry wood stairs in Mott AHaven Yard (a yard that doesn't really exist today). I rode it. You got one right answer.
Note that one hint should have been a giveway, since one railroad was involved in three cases and ran its own trains on the rapid transit system. Also one has a link to the tunnel question. Do you realliy need more hints?
Just one more hint: NJT should have learned something from one of the three situations where the same railroad and rapid transit situation were involved, with respect to how they should have handled the Superbowl. Both the transit system and the railroad were complimented.
Unless I'm totally off base, Dave has been trying to point to the joint CM&StP, CRT and CNS&M operation on the north side of Chicago.
Line was built by the Chicago Evanston and Lake Superior, got as far as Linden Ave. in Wilmette, was leased by and later merged into the Chicago Milwaukee and St. Paul. In 1904 or 1905 the Chicago and Milwaukee Electric began operating over the CM&St P as far south as Davis St. in Evanston where passengers changed to CM&StP steam trains.
In 1908 the Northwestern Elevated began operation over the CM&StP between Wilson Avenue in Chicago and Central St. in Evanston, overlapping with the C&ME between Church St (one block north of Davis) and Central. CM&St.P continued to operate steam passenger trains until the NWERR service began, continued to operate steam freight service on the same tracks. NWERR service was extended to Linden Avenue in 1910. Originally the entire line was equipped with overhead wire, but as the line was raised to its present elevation and rebuilt the third rail was gradually extended to Howard St, the northern limit of Chicago. Wire remained up over the westernmost track until the end of freight operations, with gauntlet track on the section that was third rail equipped south of Granville Ave.
This arrangement remained in place until 1919 when the C&ME's successor Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee got trackage rights over the NWERR to the loop. In 1920 the NWERR contracted to provide freight service on behalf of CM&StP on the portion of the CM&StP north of Buenna Park (just south of Wilson). CNS&M opened the Skokie Valley line in 1926, over which trains of NEWRR successor Chicago Rapid Transit ran trains as far as Dempster Avenue in Skokie. The CRT service ended in 1948 but was revived after the abandonment of the CNS&M by CTA as the Skokie Swift.
CNS&M had the famous streamlined Electroliners, and had limiteds (esp. the Eastern Limited) scheduled to connect with the Twentieth Century Limited and other tains at LaSalle St. in Chicago.
Ownership of the underlying tracks remained with the CM&StP until the mid 1950s, with CRT continung freight service until 1973 with the original NWERR locomotives.
The event Dave must be referring to was the 1926 Eucharistic conference at Mundelein, where CRT and CNS&M cooperated to move over a hundred thousand people in a single day using CRT equipment operating on the CNS&M.
The Eucharistic Congress was one example of the three I am lookiing for with respect to CRT and CNS&M. The CNS&M was legally a Class I railroad and particpated in the national freight networrk. Chicaago Rapid Transit was not, because its freight operation was directliy for the Milwaukee, and that railroad reported to the ICC, the CRT did not. The CRT did not have "Reporting Marks," but the North Shore did.
The other two should be well known and RC should do the homework and tell us about them. One service is operating today. Most of its route was built and owned by the Nofrth Shore. It stopped running before the Norh Shore quit, quite a few years before, and was revived some years after. The the third ran will elevated cars for a particular period in USA history, and often gate cars were used.
The CRT, then briefly the CTA was involved another fourth operation over the racks of a different railroad that is no longer with us. It reached a CRT branch line shuttle not reached by the CRT's own tracks.
That gets us four of the six. The fifth was the R32 operation out of GCT. The 6th is related to my tunnel question that was answered. It started with alternate train of the railroad and the rapid transit iine, with both using tank engines and open-platform coaches, but not using the tunnel and connecting to ferry boars instead, then extended to the tunnel's station, with steel cars alternating with gate elevated cars, then extended for two more stations, and the terminated because patronage fell off after a giant improvement for the railroad elsewhere, away from the first subway tunnel and station.
Gate car and closed vestibule CRT trains ran to the Congress at Mundelein from nearly all branches of the CRT network, not just from the Loop. And Milwaukee North Shore Line service was relocated to the Shore Line so the Skokie Valley Line could be used exclusively for the special trains of CRT equipment.
CNS&M regularly operated leased CRT equipment for Navy moves to and from Great Lakes Naval Training Center in Waukegan, and, less frequently, for the Army at Fort Sheridan, including occasional trips all the way to Milwaukee. CRT cars were also leased for Ravinia Park concerts. CNS&M also leased Chicago Aurora and Elgin equipment for Navy and Army specials.
CA&E built a branch in 1926 under the corporate name of Chicago Westchester and Western that ran parallel to Mannheim Rd in Bellwood and Westchester, at the time mostly open fields. It was reached over CA&E-owned track from Laramie (52nd) Avenue in Chicago through Oak Park, Forest Park (present end of the Blue Line) and Maywood. CRT leased the CW&W from CA&E, which also had its own freight-only branch south on the other side of Mannheim Rd, built as the Cook County and Southern. The CC&S was also used by the joint CA&E/CRT funeral trains. CRT had various services on the Garfield Park line of the "Met" (Metropolitan Division, originally Metropolitan West Side Elevated Railway) to Laramie, Forest Park, and Westchester . All of his unwound between 1951 and 1957 as Westchester service was discontinued in 1951, CTA bought the CA&E line from Laramie to Des Plaines Ave, Forest Park, and through operation of CA&E trains to the loop ended in 1953. CA&E passenger service was discontinued in July of 1957. Between 1953 and 1958 the CTA and the Chicago Highway Department built what is now the Forest Park Branch of the Blue Line to replace the Garfield Park Line and operation over the CA&E.
Most of the trains to the Eucharistic congress originated on the South Side lines, especially the Englewood branch. Passengers were expected to transfer off of Met or Lake cars in the Loop.
daveklepperThe 6th is related to my tunnel question that was answered. It started with alternate train of the railroad and the rapid transit iine, with both using tank engines and open-platform coaches, but not using the tunnel and connecting to ferry boars instead, then extended to the tunnel's station, with steel cars alternating with gate elevated cars, then extended for two more stations, and the terminated because patronage fell off after a giant improvement for the railroad elsewhere, away from the first subway tunnel and station.
Sorry I hadn't got around to this, I've been busy.
I think this is the Putnam Bridge, converted in 1918 from railroad to elevated operation.
RC, good job on the Chicago area railroads! I hadn't thought of them.
I would say that if nobody has any objections, I will pick RC as the winner to ask the next question.
The Putnam Bridge is not the answer for the sixth service, since the IRT bought the Putnam Bridge from the Central at the time the Putham Div. steam passenger service was cut back from the 155th and 8th elevated station to the Sedgewick Avenue station on the Bronx side of the bridge, and hte south track on the bridge was third-railed for a 155th - Segewick shuttle that coninued until the Segewick-Jerome Anders on Avenue tunnels were opened and the connection made to the Jerome Avenue elevated structure on River Street, leading into Jerome Avenue.
The sixth service was begun as a summer-only Broadway Ferry - Far Rockaway service, with switches from the E. Fulton Street elevated structure on the Jamaica elevated line, girders still visible from J and Z trains, to a ramp to join the LIRR Atlantic Avenue line, this ramp long removed. It was begun with LIRR tank engines and open-plaform coaches and similar equipment from Brooklyn United then the Brooklynn Rapid Transit. When the Williamsburg Bridge was opened, and New York City's first subway station opened at Essex and Delancy Street, 1903, the SECOND summer (1904) LIRR steel Gibbs cars (Along with almost identacle cars for the IRT, the first steel passenger cars), their first mus, replaced their steam trains, and new convertable steel and wood 1300 series mu gate cars replaced the BRT steam trains, all rerouted over the bridge. The subway off the Williiamsburg Bridge was extended to Canal Streeet and Chambers Street, and this joint operaton of LIRR trains on the BRT and BRT trains on the LIRR was extended to serve these two statiolns, along with full-time BRT service to Jamaica and Canarsie. When Far Rockaway LIRR trains began running directly to Pennsylvania Station, patronage on this summer joint service dropped sharply, and I think 1912 wa the last summer for it. Steel cars did not begin replacing the 1300'a in Williamsburg Bridge service until after WWI. However, in 1915, steel cars over the Manhattan Bridge frolm the Sea Beach line began running into Chambers Street untiil a few years later when they were diverted o 14th St. Union Square and then to Times Square.
Rush hour Sea Beach service to Chambers St, along with RH service from Brighton, Culver, and West End lines to Chambers Street continued until the 1931 opening of the Nassau Cut, when the Nassau Loop service began, rush hours, Culver Express "via Bridge to Nassau Loop, via Tunnel to Brooklyn" and West End Local. "via Tunnel to Nassau Loop, via Bridge to Brooklyn." Meanwhile, the Jamaica service was extended two stops south to Broad and Nassau Streets.
Today, one can "almost" ride the joint service route, using the J train from Chambers or Canal or Essex to East New York - Eastern Parkway, all the original route, then transfering downstairs to the A Rockaway service, back on the original route after descending the ramp after the Rockaway Parkway Station on the Liberty Avenue elevated structure.
rcdrye CNS&M regularly operated leased CRT equipment for Navy moves to and from Great Lakes Naval Training Center in Waukegan, and, less frequently, for the Army at Fort Sheridan, including occasional trips all the way to Milwaukee. CRT cars were also leased for Ravinia Park concerts. CNS&M also leased Chicago Aurora and Elgin equipment for Navy and Army specials. CA&E built a branch in 1926 under the corporate name of Chicago Westchester and Western that ran parallel to Mannheim Rd in Bellwood and Westchester, at the time mostly open fields. It was reached over CA&E-owned track from Laramie (52nd) Avenue in Chicago through Oak Park, Forest Park (present end of the Blue Line) and Maywood. CRT leased the CW&W from CA&E, which also had its own freight-only branch south on the other side of Mannheim Rd, built as the Cook County and Southern. The CC&S was also used by the joint CA&E/CRT funeral trains. CRT had various services on the Garfield Park line of the "Met" (Metropolitan Division, originally Metropolitan West Side Elevated Railway) to Laramie, Forest Park, and Westchester . All of his unwound between 1951 and 1957 as Westchester service was discontinued in 1951, CTA bought the CA&E line from Laramie to Des Plaines Ave, Forest Park, and through operation of CA&E trains to the loop ended in 1953. CA&E passenger service was discontinued in July of 1957. Between 1953 and 1958 the CTA and the Chicago Highway Department built what is now the Forest Park Branch of the Blue Line to replace the Garfield Park Line and operation over the CA&E. Most of the trains to the Eucharistic congress originated on the South Side lines, especially the Englewood branch. Passengers were expected to transfer off of Met or Lake cars in the Loop. I counted your Revinia (peacetime) use as separate from the wartime only Fort Sheradin and Great Lalkes service, but actually I had another service in mind. Before the North Shore rerouted its Milwaukee expresses off the Shore Line onto the Skokie Valley, the line did open from Howard Street to Demster Street in Skokie, as a CRT shuttle line. and this CRT-CTA service continued until well after WWII, ending I think before the Shore Line quite. North Shore trains continued to use the line and provide service to Demster Street. But this was another example of CRT-CTA service with their equipment over North Shore tracks. This operates today with different intermediate stations, as the Skokie Swift, a revival. But CTA owns the tracks now.
I
rcdryeCNS&M opened the Skokie Valley line in 1926, over which trains of NWERR successor Chicago Rapid Transit ran trains as far as Dempster Avenue in Skokie. The CRT service ended in 1948 but was revived after the abandonment of the CNS&M by CTA as the Skokie Swift.
The pre-Skokie Swift service was back on an earlier post...
In any case, the next question is yours to ask. But I have a question concerning the Rpavinia service. I did attend a CSO conceret there in 1952, using the Q downtown from La Grange, and the North Shore to and from the concert, and fortunately was able to catch the last Aurora train home, after a ride on a North Shore Ravinia Special back to Adams and Wells Street. It was not as fast a trip as I wouldl have liked, because the portable headlight conked out about Winetka, and the engineer was dutifully cautious afterward. I don't remember any high platforms at Ravinia. How did the "L" cars unload and load there? My travel is in the ususal Shore Line modernized steel equipment.
When I attended Ravinia concerts in my 1967-1970 sojourn in Westmont, I drove. Did the C&NW run any special trains?
daveklepperI don't remember any high platforms at Ravinia. How did the "L" cars unload and load there? My travel is in the ususal Shore Line modernized steel equipment.
Near as I can tell from old photos they used step boxes. I'm pretty sure the use of L equipment on a large scale ended after CNS&M could operate their own cars. The early photos show L cars being pulled by GE 40-ton steeplecabs 450 or 451, which had low-mount Van Dorn couplers and air hoses for compatibility with L equipment and CNS&M's own cars. I'll have a new question in a couple of hours.
New question:
This event involved the largest use of Pullmans for stationary hotel service.
Not a one-time affair: Yearly. The Kentucky Derby
Nope. This one event beat out a bunch of annual ones, and required the use of most of a busy coach yard.
Dweight Eisenhower's inauguration?
daveklepper Dweight Eisenhower's inauguration?
I too was thinking of Eisenhower's inauguration as a possibility but if that's not correct I'll say FDR's inauguration.
Mark
It was indeed Eisenhower's inauguration. A large part of the Ivy City coach yard and a smaller B&O yard were set up with dozens of mostly 12&1 Pullmans for overflow guests.
Dave got there first...
(1) What was New York State's last public conveyance streetcar line, (2) in what year did its operation end, (3) what kind of equipment operated on it, (4) for whom was this equipment originally built (5) and by whom, (6) what new facility ended its operation, (7) and what rail options are availabe to go between end points and points on line today?
Extra, give as much information as possible about the line's history and former equipment. and its several unique features.
daveklepper (1) What was New York State's last public conveyance streetcar line, (2) in what year did its operation end, (3) what kind of equipment operated on it, (4) for whom was this equipment originally built (5) and by whom, (6) what new facility ended its operation, (7) and what rail options are availabe to go between end points and points on line today? Extra, give as much information as possible about the line's history and former equipment. and its several unique features.
1) Queensborough Bridge Railway
2) 1957
3) Osgood-Bradley Master Units
4) Union Street Railway of New Bedford MA
5) Osgood-Bradley (Worcester MA)
6) New low-level bridge to Roosevelt Island
7) N and Q subway lines
The Q.B. Ry was the last remaining rail operation on the bridge. As built the bridge had tracks for the 2nd avenue Elevated and the streetcar tracks used at various times by TARS and other carriers as well as Steinway lines. There was a mid-bridge station for Roosevelt Island as well as the one on Manhattan, with street level operation into Queensborough Plaza.
Your answer is correct as I remember it, and there was also an elevator on Vernon Blvd, which I used on a Coney Island to Hastings streetcar trip, after the TATS "T" was bussed but puti-ins and pull-outs for K and 125th Crosstown still operated out of the Third and 65th TATS carhouse, allowing the bridge streetcar to be a link (with some walking on both sides) from the end of the Brooklyn Crosstown and Graham lines at LI City to a put-out K car, well-filled by the time it got to the regular route at 125th and 3rd with riders who prefered a streetcar to the M101 T-replacement bus.
A message from a fellow ERA member disputes the 1957 date, but I do remember it as 1957. Possibly you have some documentation, which would help me? In any case the next question is yours! Here is his meesage:
The 1957 date for last operation of Q.B. Rwy was found on several different sources. Not being a New York guy in general I have to rely on books and such.
As part of what was mainly a passenger electrification to comply with smoke abatement laws, this freight-only branch (no milk trains, either) was was also electrified.
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