From a memory of photographs, I think the Exposition Flyer operated with solariums in the winter and open-platform obs in the summer. But the Empire Builder was solarium all-year round. But this was well before the dome obs arrived.
Rob and all:
After WWII two railroads ordered all section sleeping cars. Name the two railroads and the series those cars were named. Hint-one series duplicated a heavyweight series. Eventually something happened to those cars. What was it?
Ed Burns
Open platform observations were built in moderate quantity up into the 1920s (North Shore Line took delivery of one in 1928). The key factors in their demise were inflexibility, air conditioning, and reduced demand for first-class service during and after the depression. Solariums appear early in the steel car era - Pullman had sleeper-buffet-lounge (solarium) cars in the late teens. Perhaps the most dramatic replacement for open-patform cars was the Milwaukee's operation of the Olympian Hiawatha, which carried OP cars until all of the Creek series Skytop 8DBR lounge cars were delivered.
Some eastern roads, notably the New Haven, had solarium cars with decorative brass railings on the solarium end.
Milwauke had 14 section Touralux cars (Milwaukee shops?) which were rebuilt into various types of baggage, mail and baggage-mail cars. I think these are the heavywight replacements you're thinking of. CB&Q/D&RGW/WP ordered 6 16 section cars (berths in secitons 1 and 2 were 6' 8" long...) for the California Zephyr - all rebuilt int 50 seat coaches in the mid-1960s.
Keep the thread going?
You answered the question with A correct answer. We don't kniow whether it was THE correct answer. A corrrect answer is good enough for me, and I vote that you ask the next question.
Although the train they were built for was not mainly known as a daytime train, this train was the last one with built-new parlor seating before the Metroliners. Parlor seats railroad tickets, not Pullman.
rcdrye Milwauke had 14 section Touralux cars (Milwaukee shops?) which were rebuilt into various types of baggage, mail and baggage-mail cars. I think these are the heavywight replacements you're thinking of. CB&Q/D&RGW/WP ordered 6 16 section cars (berths in secitons 1 and 2 were 6' 8" long...) for the California Zephyr - all rebuilt int 50 seat coaches in the mid-1960s.
Johnny
Rob and All:
You got the first part of the question right. I did not include the MILW's cars.
The second part of the question was referring to the UP's "Alpine" series cars that duplicated a series of heavy weight cars of the same prefix. They were rebuilt into coaches.
As information, the GN ordered sleepers for the Empire Builder about 1950. The "River" series had four sections. They were the last to be sold, so the GN rebuilt the cars. This is from John Straus's book on the Empire Builder.
Next question to you.
I didn't know that UP had a heavyweight version of the Alpine cars. Both the CZ and Milwaukee car groups were intended to replace tourist sleepers. Milwaukee's included some cars that were rebuilt from coach-section Touralux configuration to all-section Touralux.
Reposted to be at the end of the list...
rcdrye Although the train they were built for was not mainly known as a daytime train, this train was the last one with built-new parlor seating before the Metroliners. Parlor seats railroad tickets, not Pullman.
The Chicago - Carbondale and New Orleans - Memphis parlor cars added to the IC's Panama Limited.
Mark
"Car Names, Numbers, and Consists", page 167, lists 14 "Alpine" prefix 14 section sleepers from ACF in 1954. Page 171 states that those cars were rebuilt to 44 seat leg-rest chair cars in 1965. They were in the 5543-5556 series.
From "Car Names and Consists" Wayner, 1963, page 147, lists four "Alpine" prefix 14 section sleeping cars for the CNW-UP Columbine of 1930, They were Alpine Bluebell, Buttercup, Clover, and Pink.
KCSfan The Chicago - Carbondale and New Orleans - Memphis parlor cars added to the IC's Panama Limited. Mark
The IC cars were prewar or immediately postwar. These (two) cars were built new for the re-equipping of a prewar train a few years after PRR's Congressional and Senator cars.
Were these Silver Chateau and Silver Veranda--Dome Observation Parlor Buffet Lounges built for the 1956 Denver Zephyr? I do not recall any indication that they were operated by the Burlington and not by Pullman.
By the way, does anybody living know what the "chamberettes" in the two 4 Chameberette, 4 Roomette, 4 Bedroom, 1 Drawing Room cars that were built in 1939 for the original Denver Zephyr were?
Deggesty Were these Silver Chateau and Silver Veranda--Dome Observation Parlor Buffet Lounges built for the 1956 Denver Zephyr? I do not recall any indication that they were operated by the Burlington and not by Pullman.
Johnny does it again! The DZ's 5PM departure had a small but loyal following for parlor tickets to Iowa and Nebraska points (though the latter were reached after midnight). Burlington's Parlor equipment wasn't listed in the Pullman list of cars in 1950. My recollection from other sources is that PRR and Wabash were the last two Pullman parlor holdouts. May 1957 OG listing doesn't say.
Vista Dome Parlor Observation-Lounge
Chicago to Denver - "The Colorado Room" Lounge.
11 Parlor seats, 1 Parlor Drawing-room. Car A.
The "Chambrette" on the prewar cars"Silver Moon" and "Silver Slipper" was set up across the car with the bed folding up against the hall side, a folding arm chair like those used in contemporary compartments and a toilet/sink combination like a roomette's on the outer wall next to the window. The rooms were paired so the doors could be angled in from the hall to save width. The chief advantages over a roomette were full time sink/toilet accessibility and a movable chair. They were in service into the mid 1960s on the Texas Zephyr
Could it be the modernization of the Penninsular 400 in return for allowing Wisconsin train-offs by the C&NW, with these being unique gallery parlor cars, two, both half coach and half parlor, boundary at the center vestibule, and designed for easy conversion into commuter coaches, which eventually did happen, but after Amtrak leased them for the through Milwaukee - St. Louis service?
In 1931-1932, Pullman rebuilt 22 16-section cars into 14-section cars. 4 of the sections in each car were lettered instead of numbered; what was different about these that they were lettered?
Deggesty In 1931-1932, Pullman rebuilt 22 16-section cars into 14-section cars. 4 of the sections in each car were lettered instead of numbered; what was different about these that they were lettered?
Johnny, I think that the lettered sections had longer than normal beds (berths). I vaguely recall that they were 6' - 8" in length but perhaps were only 6' - 6".
Or were they the two that were rebuilt to handle wounded to the Mayo Clinic in Rochester from Chicago?
daveklepper Could it be the modernization of the Penninsular 400 in return for allowing Wisconsin train-offs by the C&NW, with these being unique gallery parlor cars, two, both half coach and half parlor, boundary at the center vestibule, and designed for easy conversion into commuter coaches, which eventually did happen, but after Amtrak leased them for the through Milwaukee - St. Louis service?
Dave, you caught me out. C&NW's1958 parlor and coach-parlor were indeed later than the two DZ cars, but were, of course, intended for day trains. The all-parlor was rebuilt into a commuter coach in the mid-1960s, the coach parlor was rebuilt into a coach-buffet-lounge similar to another bilevel. All of the long-haul bilevel 400s(except the ex-full parlor) were leased and later sold to Amtrak in the 1970s.
Now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast...
daveklepper Or were they the two that were rebuilt to handle wounded to the Mayo Clinic in Rochester from Chicago?
Dave, as I recall those two cars each had just two Bedrooms (or maybe Compartments) with side entrances to accommodate bed ridden patients.
The sleepers for the Chicago-Rochester service were built new, in 1929, with 8 sections, 1 drawing room, and 4 double bedrooms. As Mark noted, there was a door in the side of the car opposite each of two of the bedrooms. And, of course, each of these elite bedrooms could be opened to another bedroom, so the attendant or spouse did not have to climb a ladder.
I wonder: was there a ladder in each bedroom, or was it necessary to ring for the porter?
KCSfan Deggesty In 1931-1932, Pullman rebuilt 22 16-section cars into 14-section cars. 4 of the sections in each car were lettered instead of numbered; what was different about these that they were lettered? Johnny, I think that the lettered sections had longer than normal beds (berths). I vaguely recall that they were 6' - 8" in length but perhaps were only 6' - 6". Mark
Incidentally, were there any sections in heavyweight cars that had longer than usual beds? I recall that the first City of Portland had some sections with such beds.
KCSfan daveklepper Or were they the two that were rebuilt to handle wounded to the Mayo Clinic in Rochester from Chicago? Dave, as I recall those two cars each had just two Bedrooms (or maybe Compartments) with side entrances to accommodate bed ridden patients. Mark
If not longer berths I have no idea so I'll just take a wild guess. Did the lowers have a wash basin and/or toilet?
Dave Klepper and All:
Regarding the two special Pullman's between Chicago and Rochester, page 297 of "Steam, Steel, and Limiteds" has a picture of one car and a floor plan of the two cars.
Please send me your e-mail (except Dave's which I have) and I will photocopy that page and attach it.
enburns@Comcast.net
You are getting close, but the berths themselves filled the space allotted for berths. The toilet and washbasin equipment were standard; nothing folded up.
were these cars with upper-berth windows?
No, Dave; indeed, these had two fewer windows than they had when built. Two windows were taken out on each side, and they were replaced by a single window on each side--and each of these was shared between two rooms.
One window shared beween rooms? But the only rooms in a 14-section sleeper would be the porter's room and the lavatories. So I can conclude that the unusual feature was the location of the men's room and the ladies' room at the same and of the car, probably the same end as a porter's room. Possibly there were three lavatories and a porter's room, with the center-aisle continiuing.
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