I got this off the Timeline web:
The first East River tunnel is completed. Workers connecting the two ends of the tunnel send a toy train through, the first train to use the new tunnel.
I believe this was Tunnel No. 1, not 4,which is the one I mentioned earlier.
daveklepper ... I assume you are talking about passenger-carrying trains, not test trains. But if it was a test train, it was probably also an LIRR MU train.
No. I am talking about the first train that went through. It was a test train, of sorts. The trip involved compressed air.
The tunnel used by the first regular train was probably the one still most used by the same service today, the one entering the station as the most northern of the entrances on the east side, and the one leaving Long Island second from the south, third from the north. (Where the tunnels cross is not definitely known to me, I suspect east of the river.)
I'm looking for nothing more complicated than a number or letter designation. There is one. (I am not saying you are wrong.)
I will provide the answers to these if I see Zephyr puts his question up, so we don't have 'two going at once[.
A Long Island MU train, probably from Rockaway Park or Far Rockaway, possibly just from Valley Stream or West Hempstead. I assume you are talking about passenger-carrying trains, not test trains. But if it was a test train, it was probably also an LIRR MU train. The test train may have been the MP-42 Gibbs cars, but the passenger train most certainly would have been DC-MP-54s. DD1s also ran through on tests before passenger-carrying trains, but their regular operation to and from Sunnyside Yard and for "change-at-Jamaica" LIRR through service and New Haven change-to-steam at Harold Tower service started, along with regular PRR service in the Hudson River Tunnels, about a month later.
OK, a quick one: What was the first train through one of the East River Tunnels (leading to Penn Station)?
(Extra credit if you name which one of the bores was involved.)
Wizlish - don't sell yourself short. Some of your questions have been very interesting indeed.
Wizlish ZephyrOverland Deggesty provided some of the answers, but because of your tenacity and getting some more of the answers, the next question is yours, Wizlish. I wouldn't dream of it, although I respect your opinion. Either you or Mr. Degges ask the next one...
ZephyrOverland Deggesty provided some of the answers, but because of your tenacity and getting some more of the answers, the next question is yours, Wizlish.
I wouldn't dream of it, although I respect your opinion. Either you or Mr. Degges ask the next one...
Ill take the next question - will be posted in a couple of days.
DragomanA quick bit of "Dixie Flyer" semi-trivia: Was just watching parts of the 1945 film, "The Clock" earlier today. Though filmed entirely on MGM's backlot, the opening scenes attempt to recreate NY's Penn Station, including a train announcer. One of the announcements -- the Dixie Flyer on Track 15!
Johnny
ZephyrOverlandDeggesty provided some of the answers, but because of your tenacity and getting some more of the answers, the next question is yours, Wizlish.
Wizlish ZephyrOverland Your research of the Dixie Flyer during the Florida land boom should give you another answer The only thing I can come up with is that the 'block' in a timetable shows a continuous route (on ACL) to Sebring via Orlando. (A number of other routes deviate from Orlando as separate services). There is still what appears to be a substantial layover in Jacksonville, so I wouldn't consider this a continuation of the Flyer itself except for the layout of the timetable. Your 'declining years' would probably be the C&EI schedule change of August 3rd, 1965, when the Flyer became in essence an Evansville-Jacksonville train (connecting with an almost incredibly inconvenient Danville-Evansville service 'set up to fail'. (BTW, The Yellowstone sleeper from 1925 HAS to rank as one of the greatest runthrough 'stretches' of a service. Prince's book on the NCStL (1967, I believe) has some very interesting details on the Dixie Flyer.
ZephyrOverland Your research of the Dixie Flyer during the Florida land boom should give you another answer
The only thing I can come up with is that the 'block' in a timetable shows a continuous route (on ACL) to Sebring via Orlando. (A number of other routes deviate from Orlando as separate services). There is still what appears to be a substantial layover in Jacksonville, so I wouldn't consider this a continuation of the Flyer itself except for the layout of the timetable.
Your 'declining years' would probably be the C&EI schedule change of August 3rd, 1965, when the Flyer became in essence an Evansville-Jacksonville train (connecting with an almost incredibly inconvenient Danville-Evansville service 'set up to fail'.
(BTW, The Yellowstone sleeper from 1925 HAS to rank as one of the greatest runthrough 'stretches' of a service.
Prince's book on the NCStL (1967, I believe) has some very interesting details on the Dixie Flyer.
ZephyrOverlandYour research of the Dixie Flyer during the Florida land boom should give you another answer
Wizlish Was not the original 'extension' via IC a train that ran Chicago to Atlanta under the one name? The only map of East Tennessee, Virginia & Georgia I can find predates the train by two years, and it shows the line running south of Atlanta to Jesup, where it connects with Savannah, Florida & Western (Plant System), presumably SW to Waycross then down to Jacksonville. I think onlt the interchange sleepers followed this route, though, from 1899. The C&EI - L&N - NCStL train definitely ran under 'the' name from Chicago to Atlanta. Now you have me looking to see just what connection (from 1908) the train had south of Atlanta, to Macon/Albany and Jacksonville. Will check and report what I find on this. In 1925 during the land boom, the 'first section' of the Dixie Flyer (all Pullmans) ran straight through from Chicago/St.Louis to "Florida" (which I presume means Jacksonville). This would be via the C of G Macon/Albany then ACL route. I had been proceeding on the assumption that the St. Louis service acted like the Boston section of the NYC Chicago trains; it operated between StL and Evansville where it was incorporated into the train coming from Chicago. Is that not what happened?
Was not the original 'extension' via IC a train that ran Chicago to Atlanta under the one name? The only map of East Tennessee, Virginia & Georgia I can find predates the train by two years, and it shows the line running south of Atlanta to Jesup, where it connects with Savannah, Florida & Western (Plant System), presumably SW to Waycross then down to Jacksonville. I think onlt the interchange sleepers followed this route, though, from 1899.
The C&EI - L&N - NCStL train definitely ran under 'the' name from Chicago to Atlanta. Now you have me looking to see just what connection (from 1908) the train had south of Atlanta, to Macon/Albany and Jacksonville. Will check and report what I find on this.
In 1925 during the land boom, the 'first section' of the Dixie Flyer (all Pullmans) ran straight through from Chicago/St.Louis to "Florida" (which I presume means Jacksonville). This would be via the C of G Macon/Albany then ACL route.
I had been proceeding on the assumption that the St. Louis service acted like the Boston section of the NYC Chicago trains; it operated between StL and Evansville where it was incorporated into the train coming from Chicago. Is that not what happened?
The only involvement IC had with the Dixie Flyer was the St. Louis-Nashville connecting train (1899-1918) which transported a St. Louis-Jacksonville sleeper and the through Chicago-Jacksonville sleeper (1901-1904) that was handled by one of its New Orleans trains and was switched to the St. Louis-Nashville Dixie Flyer at Fulton. South of Atlanta, the though sleepers ran via Tifton, Valdosta or Lake City.
Your post gives one of the answers: Chicago-Jacksonville, established in 1908. And you are right about the St. Louis sleepers in that they were incorporated with the main Dixie Flyer at Evansville. There were no pure St. Louis-Florida Dixie Route through trains.
The Dixie Flyer was unique in that what became the Chicago-Florida train was mostly cobbled together from separately running segments. The C&EI-L&N Chicago-Nashville portion was newly created when the Chicago-Jacksonville Dixie Flyer was established. The challenge is determining the through sleeping car routes handled by the Nashville-Atlanta Dixie Flyer vs. the actual train operating portions. The operators of the through sleepers utilizing the NC&StL Dixie Flyer gave the impression that the Flyer was a through Chicago-Florida train when it was not (at least until 1908). The Monon was also guilty of promoting through Chicago-Florida services as if they were through trains when in fact they were only through sleepers.
Your research of the Dixie Flyer during the Florida land boom should give you another answer and the last outstanding answer is from the Flyer's declining years.
Wizlish ZephyrOverland Looking for three more answers.
ZephyrOverland
Looking for three more answers.
The jist of this question is to flush out the various runs (endpoint to endpoint) the Dixie Flyer name was applied to.
At one time, there was a train called the Dixie Flyer that operated Nashville-Atlanta only.
At one time, there were two trains called the Dixie Flyer that operated Atlanta-Jacksonville only utlizing two different routes; one handled by three railroads and the other one handled by one railroad.
And at one time there was a train called the Dixie Flyer that operated St. Louis-Nashville only.
As for your answer, there was no Dixie Flyer that operated Chicago-Nashville only.
You're dancing with the answers....
Amtrak's startup was the South Wind, replacing the former PRR leg Chicago-Logansport-Louisville with a hybrid NYC(B4)/PRR routing via Indianapolis, at the same time restoring through operation, from Central Station in Chicago instead of Union Station. With the deterioration of PC's track it got rerouted a bunch of times before being discontinued in 1979. Some of the routings used included L&N's ex-Monon route of today's Cardinal/Hoosier state and the old Dixie Flyer C&EI/L&N routing, by then all L&N.
Did not, on start-up, Amtrak have a Florida - Chicago service, dropped later?
ZephyrOverlandLooking for three more answers.
What happened to Chicago via C&EI to Evansville, then L&N to Nashville?
NP Eddie ZO: Thanks for all the information about Chicago-Florida service. Did Amtrak consider such service? I suspect not because of the small number of riders from Chicago to Florida and the many roads involved in taking the train from Chicago to Florida (maybe Jacksonville). Ed Burns
ZO:
Thanks for all the information about Chicago-Florida service. Did Amtrak consider such service? I suspect not because of the small number of riders from Chicago to Florida and the many roads involved in taking the train from Chicago to Florida (maybe Jacksonville).
Ed Burns
By the following spring, the schedule was changed to two nights out, renamed Floridian, and operated over the route of the former South Wind. This train had many vicissitudes as the track of this host road and that host road deteriorated and the train had to be rerouted. The last time I rode it, in 1978, it took the former Monon between some point near Chicago and Louisville (I do not recall how it got out of Chicago). I think it was put to death in 1989.
Deggesty The Dixie Flyer used four different routes Atlanta-Jacksonville that I know of: Atlanta-Macon via CG; Macon-to a junction with what became SAL's Jacksonville-River Junction line via GS&F; thence into Jacksonville (1893). Atlanta-Macon via CG; Macon-Tifton via GS&F; Tifton-Jacksonville via ACL (1917?). After the Southern absorbed the GS&F, the CG carried the train to Albany, whence the ACL carried it to Jacksonville. The last route was essentially a single road route--AB&C to Waycross and ACL to Jacksonville (mid-fifties). For a short time after the GS&F went into the Southern System, the train still traveled over it; it was shown in the public timetable--with numbers only and no description. I am currenly in a hospital, and have no access to most of my information. I was unaware that it ever rode over the IC out of Chicago; I knew that the through service from St. Louis was at one time over the IC to a point in Tennessee where it connected with the NC&SL.
The Dixie Flyer used four different routes Atlanta-Jacksonville that I know of:
Atlanta-Macon via CG; Macon-to a junction with what became SAL's Jacksonville-River Junction line via GS&F; thence into Jacksonville (1893).
Atlanta-Macon via CG; Macon-Tifton via GS&F; Tifton-Jacksonville via ACL (1917?).
After the Southern absorbed the GS&F, the CG carried the train to Albany, whence the ACL carried it to Jacksonville.
The last route was essentially a single road route--AB&C to Waycross and ACL to Jacksonville (mid-fifties).
For a short time after the GS&F went into the Southern System, the train still traveled over it; it was shown in the public timetable--with numbers only and no description.
I am currenly in a hospital, and have no access to most of my information.
I was unaware that it ever rode over the IC out of Chicago; I knew that the through service from St. Louis was at one time over the IC to a point in Tennessee where it connected with the NC&SL.
Wizlish I know the easy parts Originally Nashville to Atlanta Then IC from Chicago and from St. Louis Then C&EI from Chicago to Evansville & L&N; St.Louis to Evansville taken over by L&N in the early '40s; From Atlanta south to JAX, initially on a road controlled by the Southern, later on C of G to Albany and then ACL. According to the NC&StL preservation society, the FEC segment from JAX to Miami (from about 1904, anyway) counted as being the 'Dixie Flyer' up to some point, and not just cars handed over. But I don't know any better, and it certainly wasn't the case by 1953. Someone with the right range of OGs will know for sure.
I know the easy parts
Originally Nashville to Atlanta
Then IC from Chicago and from St. Louis
Then C&EI from Chicago to Evansville & L&N; St.Louis to Evansville taken over by L&N in the early '40s;
From Atlanta south to JAX, initially on a road controlled by the Southern, later on C of G to Albany and then ACL.
According to the NC&StL preservation society, the FEC segment from JAX to Miami (from about 1904, anyway) counted as being the 'Dixie Flyer' up to some point, and not just cars handed over. But I don't know any better, and it certainly wasn't the case by 1953. Someone with the right range of OGs will know for sure.
Nashville-Atlanta is one of the city pairs. This was the original route of the Dixie Flyer in 1892.
Atlanta-Jacksonville is another city pair and was served by two different routes, one early in the train's history and the other one late in the train's career. Still need the routes.
You have pieces of other answers. As for the NC&StL information, in the early days of the Dixie Flyer, the railroad, in its advertising and through car descriptions, gave the impression that the train operated beyond Nashville and Atlanta. It can be said that the Dixie Route was an early marketing example of "branding" a through car service, a practice that was somewhat common up to WW1.
Wizlish Does this include all the 'permutations' from Jacksonville south to the various east and west coast destinations as separate endpoints? They were in the timetable under the train name...
Does this include all the 'permutations' from Jacksonville south to the various east and west coast destinations as separate endpoints? They were in the timetable under the train name...
ZephyrOverlandThe challenge here is to supply the endpoints of the various Dixie Flyer trains that existed. I have seven possibilites, including two which shared the same endpoints but with different routings.
NP Eddie ZO and All: My brain is in neutral, so Zephyr can ask the next question. I see your picture next to a MILW Skytop car. What a nice picture! Ed Burns
ZO and All:
My brain is in neutral, so Zephyr can ask the next question. I see your picture next to a MILW Skytop car. What a nice picture!
NPEddie - Why don't you go ahead and ask the next question.
ZO has the correct answer on the train's nickname, and NP Eddie has the end of the trip. SP provided a pair of coaches for the prisoners, and the train was routed via New Orleans (WPR/L&N), Los Angeles, Oakland and Martinez to Tiburon. In Tiburon the coaches were placed on a carfloat normally used for NWP to transfer freight cars to San Francisco, to prevent an escape while transferring to the ferry. Probably one of the most heavily guarded movements ever, with engine changes away from major terminals and Thompson-carrying US Marshalls. Photos of the train do show Pullman cars in the consist.
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