Dang near out of good questions... Since the WCF&N used the roundhouse as a shop and carbarn the city streetcar equipment rode the turntable regularly...
On to the new question! This 14 miloe long shortline railroad carried a through Pullman from New York on its mixed train during the summer months until the 1920s, when steel cars proved too heavy for its small motive power. Its 165 foot high wooden bridge crossing of a river gorge was replaced in 1911 with a steel span that remains in service today as part of a state highway, more than 75 years after the line was abandoned.
Bath and Hamisford? Unadilla Valley?
I'll add on a bit more. One end of the line was at a Union Station that had a working ball signal into the 1960s.
A Vermont short line? I think Bellows Falls had such a signal. And was served by CV and B&M.
Right state, wrong Union Station. Bellows Falls did have a five mile freight hauling interurban line to Saxton's River, but it didn't cross a deep gorge, and never hauled a through Pullman as far as I know.
I can think of at least five Vermont Union Stations with ball signals. This was the last one with both a ball signal and passenger trains.
White River Junction
Was this perhaps the Bristol Railroad, which connected with the Rutland at New Haven Junction and ran between the junction and Bristol, Vt.?
I could find, in the June 1916, Guide no through Pullman service on the NYC which would have used a shortline road as an endpoint.
Johnny
I think the end date of the Pullman service is my error. The change to steel cars would have been triggered by the New Haven's 1913 wholesale change to steel cars to deal with the Park Avenue tunnels in New York. The key point was that the shortline's Mogul's were unequal to the task of lugging a steel Pullman up the 2% or so ruling grade. Dave is on the scent.
Bristol used a tank engine and an ancient ex-Rutland and Burlington coach. As far as I know New Haven Jct. did not have a ball signal.
Vermont Union Stations known to have ball signals, with passenger service end dates:
Bellows Falls 1965
Brattleboro 1965
Burlington 1953
Wells River 1965
White River Jct 1966
St. Johnsbury 1965
Some of them lost ball signals before passenger service ended.
The Woodstock Railway, from White River Junction to Woodstock, was 14 miles long. Of course, a summer, 1916, Guide would not show any through service. However, there is no indication in the June issue that any of the many trains is mixed. Perhaps the trains providing the connection were mixed, and when the service was discontinued they no longer carried passengers?
pretty clear that Johnny has the answer. Woodstock was and is a summer resort, and a through Pullman via the CV-B&M, and NYNH&H would have made sense.
Back to the books... The through pullman (NYNH&H, B&M, W Ry) was definitely gone before 1914 but I can't confirm a date with the books I have on hand. The main reason the W Ry didn't list mixed trains is that ALL of the trains were mixed, or could be. With only a couple of sidings between White River Jct and Woodstock dropping or picking up a car or two didn't slow down the operation much. The default train was a mogul and an open-platform combine.
The 1911 steel arch bridge across Quechee Gorge and the Ottaquechee River was built to replace a wooden span that had deteriorated to the point of being dangerous. When the railway was abandoned in 1937, the state of Vermont bought the bridge and most of the right of way and built what is now U.S. route 4. US 4 follows the right of way almost exactly from White River Jct to Quechee, after which it is still visible most of the way to Woodstock. The former W Ry station is still standing in Woodstock, in use for storage.
Back to the good old days. What was the routing of a through Pullman, with diner service for meals, between Detroit and Kansas City which did not go through any major rail center? What was the passenger service available over the same tracks in the early fifties?
Wabash through Decatur, main line to Decator and branch to KC. 1950's Cannnnnon Ball Detroit too Decatur and branch line train to KC. Without OG don't knnnnow if latter was a mixed.
Johnny, I believe that would have been the Wabash which at one time had a through Pullman that ran between Detroit and KC. The largest intermediate cities/towns on its route were Montpelier, Ft. Wayne, Lafayette, Danville , Decatur, Springfield, Hannibal, and Moberly.
In 1954 (and possibly a few years earlier) there was no passenger service between Decatur and Moberly. Passengers travelling between Detroit and KC on the Wabash would have to go via St. Louis and change trains there. Two through trains ran between Detroit and Decatur and on to St. Louis, the Cannonball and the WB St. Louis Ltd. and EB Detroit Ltd. Three trains ran between St. Louis and KC via Moberly, the City of Kansas City, City of St. Louis and the Midnight Ltd.
Mark
After leaving the computer, I realized the branch train would be required only to Moberly, from there any of St. Louis - KC trains would be available, inlcuding the through train to the West Coast interchanged with the UP at KC and carrying both coaches and sleepers for LA and SF, possibly Portland and Denver as well. I think this was the City of Kansas City, although possibly both it and the City of S. Louis handled through cars, especially if the Overland was still running on the UP. OK with me for KCS to ask the next question.
Dave, you have the routing down exactly. This service did not survive the depression; by November of 1938, there was a train between Moberly and Decatur, that had connections for Kansas City and Chicago/Detroit. Nine years later, there was a motor between Decatur and Bluffs and a mixed train between Bluffs and Moberly. In the early fifties, there was freight service only Bluffs-Moberly, and a scheduled freight, possibly carrying passengers in the caboose, between Decatur and Bluffs. Apparently, the scenery afforded by the Wabash had failed to attract through passengers.
I am not going to be party to a conflict waged between Jerusalem and Shreveport.
No conflict. I was happy to serve as an acoustical consultant for St. Mark's E;iscopal Church (I may be wrong on which saint, but Williiam Teague was and may still be organist and choirmaster, and I have a fine CD of him on the church's Aeolian Skinner organ.) and enjoyed riding the trackless trolley line, arriving in Shreveport from New Orleans on Kansas City Southern, and leaving on the same railroad via interline sleeper to the MP at Little Rock to St. Louis. Again, OK with me for KCSto ask the next question.
Dave, I've lived in Shreveport since 1965 and the trackless trolleys you mentioned still ran at that time before being replaced by busses a couple of years later. St. Marks is a beautiful church and I've been in it a number of times. The through sleeper to St. Louis that you rode was carried in the KCS/L&A's Shreveporter to Hope, AR where it was handed off to the MoPac. Since I happen to have a question ready I'll accept your offer to ask the next one.
In January of 1930, before the Depression took its toll, what railroad had the most all Pullman trains? Name the trains and their routes.
A few weeks before I visited Shreveport, the sleeper was rerouted via Little Rock, possibly because the branch line to Hope had lost its pasenger service. I think it was still served by a mixed train, but its timing was not satisfactory for the through sleeper. The through sleeper did not last long after that. I will now try to answer the question without recourse to an OG. It seems to me that the logical candidate was the PRR, since the PRR ran the most passenger trains in general at the time.
Broadway and General, NY - Chi., Spirit of St. Louis, NY- St.. L. Cincninnati Llmt. NY - Cincninnati, Red Arrow, NY - Detroit, Congressional, NY - Washington (parlors were operated by Pullman), Steel City and/or Pittburgher, NY -Pittsburgh, Orange Blossom Special (RF&P. SAL), NY - Florida, Crescent (Sou. WPRt, L&N), NY - New Orleans, Florida Speicial (RF&P-ACL-FEC), NY - Florida, East Wind or Bar Harbor Express, (NYNH&H-B&M-MC) NY - Maine, Detroit Arrow, Chic - Detroit via Fort Wayne and Wabash, and possibly the Senator and/or the Federal were all Pullman at one time, NYNH&H, Washinton - Boston. These come to mind, but undoubtadly there are others.
The organ in St. Mark's in an outstandiing Aeolian Skinner, one of the very best of one of the USA's best organ builders, and has been preserved in topnotch condition. I realliy tresure the CD recording I have. Probably still avilable from the church. I sent for the recording when I saw it favorably reviewed in THE AMERICAN ORGANIST, and was not idssapointed in any way..
On one or the other of the KCS night trains I had my first taste of Bourbon Wiskey at the urging of a fellow passenger. (He was not trying to get me drunk or anything, just in discussing gourmet experiences in the diner.) I immediately developed a taste for it, but now I have to refrain from alchohol for health reasons at age 81+.
daveklepper A few weeks before I visited Shreveport, the sleeper was rerouted via Little Rock, possibly because the branch line to Hope had lost its pasenger service. I think it was still served by a mixed train, but its timing was not satisfactory for the through sleeper. The through sleeper did not last long after that. I will now try to answer the question without recourse to an OG. It seems to me that the logical candidate was the PRR, since the PRR ran the most passenger trains in general at the time. Broadway and General, NY - Chi., Spirit of St. Louis, NY- St.. L. Cincninnati Llmt. NY - Cincninnati, Red Arrow, NY - Detroit, Congressional, NY - Washington (parlors were operated by Pullman), Steel City and/or Pittburgher, NY -Pittsburgh, Orange Blossom Special (RF&P. SAL), NY - Florida, Crescent (Sou. WPRt, L&N), NY - New Orleans, Florida Speicial (RF&P-ACL-FEC), NY - Florida, East Wind or Bar Harbor Express, (NYNH&H-B&M-MC) NY - Maine, Detroit Arrow, Chic - Detroit via Fort Wayne and Wabash, and possibly the Senator and/or the Federal were all Pullman at one time, NYNH&H, Washinton - Boston. These come to mind, but undoubtadly there are others.
Good list Dave, but the Pennsy wasn't the road that had the most all Pullman trains.
I was thinking you probably rode the through Shreveport-StL sleeper at an earlier time. After passenger service to Hope was discontinued it was routed for a few years more over the KCS to Texarkana and then on to StL on the MP which was the route you took. I too am 81 and a while back I posted some remembrances about the times I attended the Chicago Railroad Fair. I was surprised when no one else posted a reply about attending the Fair so it seems you and I are the only dinosaurs left on this forum.
Mark, when does someone become a dinosaur? Is it 80? I'm only 78, and some people give the impression that I am already pre-Cambrian.
The date i rode the sleeper can be fixed by it being within the week after the last Illinois Terminal passenger sevice, the suburban St. Louis - Granit City service, operated. I visited the IT offices, was shown by an IT VP the basement subway station, got a chance to look in one of the streamliners stored there, but could not ride anything because nothing was moving. I did ride the Hodamont and University local St. Louis PCC lines that were still operating - again not for long. Had to fly from St. L to Boston, TWA, but only after having spent five nights in sleeping cars: Boston - NY, Owl, NYNH&H, NY - Greenville, SC, PRR -Sou., Charlotte - New Orleans, Sou-WPRt-L&N, NO - Shev. KCS, Shrev. -StL, KCS-MP. Roomettes, except Charlotte - Atlanta coach, Atlanta - NO double bedroom. Whatever year it was, it was the year I spent 35 or 35 nights in sleeping cars, one out of ten. And all were on business trips. Greenville - Charlotte was in client's automobile
I'll be interested in the correct answer. Someone with easy access to an OG, for sure.
Johnny, you're so close age wise that I, and I think Dave too, would be glad to include you in our elite group. Any others out there that we should recognize as members of the club?
I will say that the New York Central Lines carried the most all-Pullman trains. From the January, 1930, Guide, I found the following trains.
The Southwestern Limited, NY-St. Louis; the New England Wolverine, Boston-Chicago; the Wolverine, NY-Chicago; the Southwestern Limited, NY-St. Louis; the Ohio State Limited, NY-Cincinnati; the Lake Shore Limited, NY-Chicago; the Cleveland Limited, NY- Cleveland; the Twentieth Century Limited, NY & Boston-Chicago (does this count as two trains?); the Western Express, Boston-Chicago (No coaches on B&A); the Toronto Limited, NY-Toronto; the Niagara, NY-Buffalo; the Fast Mail (#9) Toledo to Chicago; the Niagara, NY to Buffalo; the Advance Twentieth Century Limited, NY-Chicago; the North Shore Limited, NY-Chicago; the Fort Orange (wb, no coaches east of Albany), NY to upstate; the Detroiter, NY-Detroit; the Berkshire, no coaches Boston to Buffalo; the Iroquois, NY to Chicago; the Montreal Limited; NY-Montreal; the Commodore Vanderbilt, NY-Chicago; the Forest City, Cleveland-Chicago; the New York Limited, Cleveland to NY; the Motor City Special, Detroit-Chicago.
There were some that were all-Pullman in only one direction, and I am tired of listing. I do not think that any other road came close to the NYC Lines in operating coach-less trains.
I think you counted the Niagra twice, and I think the Pennsy did come close, as my list shows. Some of the Pennsy trains I listed had Baltimore - Washington sections as well as New York, and could be counted twice. I question the Advance Century. Seems like another section to me. The only NYC train that I know of that you left out, whose name I know, was the Twilight LImited, Detroit - Chicago, all Pullman parlor in both directions. There was also a Chicago Cincinnati train and I think Detroit - Cincinnati.
Yes, I did count the Niagara twice; give me 39 lashes with a wet noodle. As to the Advance Century and the Century, the Advance Century ran forty-five minutes earlier westbound, and forty minutes earlier eastbound. Since there were two separate schedules, I do not think it proper to consider one a section of the other.
You are right, I did omit the Twilight Limited; that's one for you.
I failed to look at the Big 4; there was no all-Pullman Chicago-Cincinnati train listed, but the Royal Palm Deluxe, a winter season Detroit-Miami train, was all-Pullman.
Unless someone comes up with a better answer, you must be the winner, but I still believe PRR was close second. And I did not even count LIRR's Cannonball, which did use Pennsy tracks in Penn Sta.
The NYC is correct and I agree with Johnny's list of trains except for the Ft. Orange which also carried coaches. He did not include several other trains that the OG shows as being all Pullman. These were Fifth Avenue Special (Chi-NY), the Mohawk (Chi-NY), the Knickerbocker (NY-StL), the Missourian (all Pullman Buffalo-NY) and Michigan Central #215 (Detroit-Alpena). I was amazed to find the number of all Pullman trains running in January of 1930 and expect that a number of them had coaches added (or maybe have been discontinued entirely) by the end of the depression in 1939.
Looking forward to your next question, Johnny.
As strange as it may seem, the West Shore Railroad (one of the NYC Lines) participated in interline sleeper operations, in completion with the NYC, serving such cities as Boston, Chicago, and St. Louis, as well as New York City.
I have found four routings of interline sleeper service (June, 1916, Guide). Name them, including the other participating roads.
Johnny, I don't have a 1916 OG but looking at one a few years earlier I found the following;
Continental Ltd.: Weehawken- Chi (West Shore & NKP) and Boston-Chi ( B&A, West Shore & Wabash)
Chicago & St. Louis Ltd. Express: NY-Chi (West Shore & NKP) and Boston-Chi (B&A, West Shore & NKP) and Boston-Chi (B&A, West Shore & Wabash)
National Ltd.: Boston -Chi (B&A, West Shore & Wabash)
West Shore Ltd.: Chi- NY (West Shore & NKP)
Buffalonian: StL-NY (West Shore & Wabash) and Chi-Boston (B&A, West Shore & Wabash)
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