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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, November 12, 2015 4:48 PM

The odd AC electrification, with big classic interurban style combines, along with a single Baldwin-Westinghouse boxcab locomotive, lasted until 1944.  Passenger service ended in the 1920s.  Pantographs were used for current collection.  Replacement power was GE 44-tonners and later various SP power.  Most if not all of the VE was abandoned in the 1990s.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:16 PM

SP also electrified two suburban lines out of Portland, OR, and was behind the NWP third-rail electrification.  Some of this equipment ended up on Pacific Electric.    How long did Visula Electric last?   Did it remain AC all its life? 

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, November 11, 2015 7:01 AM

PRR's 15 Hz attempt never got out of Altoona. New Haven's successful 25Hz installation instead became PRR's pattern. Visalia Electric was supposed to be SP's workshop for long distance electrification.  SP did later electrify the East Bay suburban lines at 1200 VDC, and owned the giant (600/1200VDC) Pacific Electric, but never electrified any main lines.  SP's very successful cab-forwards were good enough to keep electrification at bay.  It's no coincidence that the first cab forward conversions were also in 1908.

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Posted by Wizlish on Wednesday, November 11, 2015 5:31 AM

rcdrye
This line had the only U.S. AC electrification at less than 25 cycles.

I'm pretty sure you mean Visalia Electric (1908)

But Burch (1911) goes into considerable detail about motors for a 1907 PRR electrification also at 15Hz (4:1 converter reduction from 60Hz American line power) using Westinghouse 144 gearless motors rated 620hp continuous.  I can't figure out (on my little laptop screen) just where this was implemented, but it seems like a lot of technical detail for something that didn't at least run experimentally.  And it would take a tormented definition of 'major railroad that never did electrify any main lines' to describe a PRR-associated line...

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 11, 2015 3:05 AM

Your question included the statement that the railroad did not electrify any main lines.  Did ir electrify ANY other lines?   And I would assume that terminal electrifications and tunnel electrifications can be main line electrifications if they belong to a main line.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 10:17 AM

Erie's was 25 hz 11KV

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 8:40 AM

The Erie in upstate New York, forget which two towns.  Two cars, centered pantograph, cars like typical wood interurban cars.

Salamanica - Oneada?

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 6:14 AM

This line had the only U.S. AC electrification at less than 25 cycles.  Like the Burlington and Mount Holly, it was a test bed for a major railroad that never did electrify any main lines.

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Posted by rfpjohn on Monday, November 9, 2015 11:09 PM

You are correct, Mr. rcdrye! It was little more than a trolley operation. The line reverted to steam after the powerhouse fire. Towards the last, it was used as one leg of a convoluted journey of a Trenton -Philadelphia milk train. Trenton-Kinkora-Lewis-Mt. Holly-Burlington-Delair-44th street, Philadelphia!

Your question, sir!

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, November 9, 2015 4:07 PM

PRR's Burlington and Mt Holly branch (7.2 mi.) got a 500v DC electrification in 1895.  The electrification was discontinued in 1901 after a fire in the powerhouse in Mt. Holly.  Two motorized combines ( 1 and 2 ) lettered for the Burlington and Mount Holly Traction Co.  The entire branch was abandoned in 1927.

Burlington and Mt. Holly are both in New Jersey.  Burlington is on the onetime Camden and Amboy, now NJT's River Line from Camden to Trenton.

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Posted by rfpjohn on Monday, November 9, 2015 1:47 PM

Wow! 1942! It's hard to imagine them holding onto those Forneys all those years!

OK, here's my question: A major US carrier's first venture into electric propulsion was on a minor branchline, roughly 7 miles in length. It was short lived. Name the railroad, the branchline endpoints and the reason for it's early demise.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 9, 2015 9:43 AM

The last two Forney 0-4-4T locomotives were sold in 1942.   The IRT had (wisely) held on to them until Unification, and the TA  saw reason to scrap them, betting on increased need for motive power as the USA prepared for what many thought was the inevitable entry into WWII.  Only locomotives in good operating condition were stored on those tracks.  Any requiring repairs or ovehaul were scrapped just before or just after the IRT takeover of Manhattan Elelvated.

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Posted by Wizlish on Monday, November 9, 2015 6:08 AM

I take it that the 'last few items' were sentimental scrap that got 'remaindered out' for a scrap drive during WWII?  (I am tempted to add, do their bit to counteract that part of the Elevated that was being fired back at us after we sold it off to the Japanese in the '30s, but much of that sale, contra authorities like cummings, turns out to be exaggerated...)

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 9, 2015 2:42 AM

rfpjohn, exactly.   Next question please.

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Posted by rfpjohn on Sunday, November 8, 2015 9:31 PM

I'm going to guess Forney engines, retired by electrification of the elevated lines. Quite a few ended up on logging roads, I believe.

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, November 8, 2015 3:52 PM

The 1904 date should do it.  Was this a yard for equipment used to dig the subway?

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, November 8, 2015 3:17 PM

Dead storage is correct, but you must be more specific.  The equipment was removed as sold in working order.  By 1904 o4 1905, any similar equipmet that needed repair was scrapped. Buyers were NOT other electric rapid transit or interurban or suburban railroads, except a few may have had a very short career on an almost connecting suburban railroad operation.

The answer is obvious given the time frame.

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Posted by narig01 on Sunday, November 8, 2015 5:06 AM

They also show up on the track maps of 1920

 

http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/calcagno-1920-elevated.gif

 

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Posted by narig01 on Sunday, November 8, 2015 4:50 AM

The track described about the 42minute point in the video.

http://youtu.be/wyYnVKhRNYk

 

This is was originally presented by Roger Arcara. At the 42 minute mark he describes a track from the 129th St bridge down to the New Haven + also the NYW&B. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, November 7, 2015 3:35 PM

It sounds like a "dead storage" yard for equipment that had outlived its service usefulness.  CTA maintains a similar storage area, some of which is not electrified, at Skokie shops.  The dead lines there were sources of parts, and sometimes frames for work car conversions.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, November 7, 2015 12:33 PM

would not a coal yard require third rail for the motor cars to fetch the hopper or .gondola cars?   If it were a coal yard, why a piece of equpment resting there for 39 years?

But you are close.   When the yard was open, it was filled almost immediately.  The last arrived in 1903.  But some of the first had already been removed.  

in 1942 the last one or two peices of equipment were removed.  Probably taken to the Willis Avenue interchange with the New Haven and loaded by a New Haven crane onto a flatcar.    Or hauled, if clearances permitted, to the still active at the time Lenox Avenue Harlem River IRT ovehaul shop and put on a barge or lighter.  

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, November 6, 2015 7:30 AM

Was it a coal yard?  At least a couple of El systems moved coal over elevated sections to generating stations in the early years.  (Met, South Side)

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, November 6, 2015 5:12 AM

Three hints:  The yard was not part of the 129th Street, Manhatan, to Treemont Avenue construction by the Suburban Elevated around 1892.  It was built by the Manhattan Elevated, the unified company bought by the IRT around 1903, around 1900.  And the yard tracks were not electrified, althogh the approach track was.  The last rolling stock item left in 1942, intact, after sitting there for approximately 40 years.

Should be a give-away now.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 4, 2015 12:28 AM

I never did ride the Dau Line to Albany, but the summer of 1937, age five, my parents and I did use the overnight NY - Boston boat in both directions, conecting with the B&M to and from Plymoth, NH.  After 1948, the Day Line boats were used for sightseeing, mostly, and I did enjoy that several times.

Before and just after WWI, the IRT rebuilt the Manahttan and Bronx elevateds for improved service.  The Harlem River bridge was replaced by one with four tracks, two each on two levels, and the double level structure continiiued to north of the 143rd Street station, north of whicih the Bergen cutoff was constructed on old brick piers that the old Suburban Elevated Railroad had not used, for an addtional connection to the Westchester Avenue structure still used by the 2 and 5 today, adding to the one on 149th Street.  Then the upper level two tracks merged into one, becoming the center express track in the 149th Steet elevated statioln.  But just north of the Bridge, a single track with switches to both lower-level tracks ran down to the Willis Avenue New Haven RR and NYW&B station,  Switching off that track was a five or six-track stub-end elevated yard that remained froml before the modernization, as did the conection to the New Haven.   Tracks in the yard were only about four or five car-lenghs long, about 200 - 300 feet.

What was the purpose of the stub-end yard, and why did it remain after the modernization?

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 7:55 PM

The Day Line's service to Albany ended in 1948.

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Posted by narig01 on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 6:14 PM

PS. My mistake, when Circle Line was operating the Alexander Hamilton she went to Poughkeepsie.

 

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Posted by narig01 on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 6:12 PM

rcdrye

The competition was really just for New York/Albany traffic.  Then as now the largest city and the capital.  At that the HR RR had to rely on a ferry to cross the Hudson at Albany as the bridge wasn't completed until 1869.

Even with the competition of the Hudson River Railroad and its successors, the Day Line lasted until September 1948.  Its boats would have been in view of the E7-powered streamlined Empire State Express and the other members of the Great Steel Fleet.

 

The Day Line Hudson River cruises lasted until 1971. My mom and I took one up the river on a cruise on one of the sidewheeler Alexander Hamilton 

    Dave maybe you can remember, they used to advertise on channel 11 WPIX. As I remember they only went as far as Kingston.

Also FYI:   https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS_Alexander_Hamilton

 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 6:27 AM

The competition was really just for New York/Albany traffic.  Then as now the largest city and the capital.  At that the HR RR had to rely on a ferry to cross the Hudson at Albany as the bridge wasn't completed until 1869.

Even with the competition of the Hudson River Railroad and its successors, the Day Line lasted until September 1948.  Its boats would have been in view of the E7-powered streamlined Empire State Express and the other members of the Great Steel Fleet.

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Posted by Wizlish on Tuesday, November 3, 2015 2:57 AM

daveklepper
competition against the Hudson River Day Line steamboats and against the Boston and Albany-New York and Harlem competitive Albany - New York service.

I'd think the Erie's service from Piermont would  be important.  But boats would be competition, especially going downriver.  Lots of room, full food service, relatively convenient arrival location...

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, November 2, 2015 9:23 AM

Hudson River Day Line is the answer.  The Harlem route wasn't particularly competitive with the boats.

Other than the large drivers, the Hudson River RR's engines were not particularly exotic.  Master Mechanic Walter McQueen did develop what became known as the Croton valve motion, a riding cutoff motion first used on HR RR's Croton.  This allowed a 50% cutoff, helping with "high speed" operation.  This type of valve motion was superseded by link motion gears ("Stephenson") over the next couple of decades.

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