SW9's 14, 15 and 16 were built by GMD London. I am guessing they were bought for the Vancouver, BC terminal, the Manitoba line had a Geep IIRC.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
ALL:
The Great Northern purchased three switch engines from EMD that were built in Canada. What were their numbers, model numbers, and why where they purchased?
Happy hunting!
Ed Burns
Ed: It's your question to ask!
Wow!
Here are some, but not all, of the conditionals (there are a couple of symbols I can't replicate with my keyboard...). Rutland took over trains from B&M at North Bennington (from Troy, some with NYC connections from New York) and Bellows Falls (Boston). Trains were either combined, or passengers made cross-platform transfers in Rutland. In addition to the ones below, there were some "f" (stops on signal to take or leave passengers) and "t" (stops only to leave passengers). Note that "y" combines "f" and "m".
c = stops to take or leave passengers for or from North Bennington, Bellows Falls or points beyond
g = stops to leave passengers from burlington or points beyond
m = stops to receive passengers for beyond Burlington
p = stops to leave passengers from Troy or points beyond
q = stops to leave passengers from Alburgh or points beyond
r = stops to leave passengers from beyond Burlington
v = stops to leave passengers from points beyond Bellows Falls
y = stops on signal to take passengers for Burlington or points beyond
z = stops to take passengers for Rutland and beyond.
All this with only about 160 miles from North Bennington or Bellows Falls to Rouses Point NY (Junction with CN for trains to Montreal)!
We knew those letters were conditionals; the question was WHAT each of those codes stood for. (The 'f' in my experience was intended to connote 'flag' and not just an arbitrary character in typesetting the table, but I could easily be over analyzing).
Can you provide a mapping for the 'rest' of the conditionals in the question that have not so far been explicated?
Ed has it absoulutely right. For some reason, the Rutland didn't like handling passengers locally, at least on the "Green Mountain Flyer". Most of the stations listed with conditionals still had agents at the time, but the "Flyer" would only (officially) stop for passengers coming from Rutland (or sometimes even North Bennington or Bellow Falls) and beyond, or going to points Alburgh or beyond. If you wanted to ride the 12 miles from Charlotte to Burlington, which is where Vermont's short-lived commuter train ran, you rode the rider coach on the northbound Milk Train, or the Alburgh local, which carried the New York-Burlington setout sleeper off the Mount Royal, arriving Burlington at 6:30AM. I suspect by 1948 passengers were rare enough on the Rutland that most of the conditions were ignored if someone actually wanted to ride.
On B&M employee timetables "S" indicated a passenger station to distinguish it from a timetable point or interlocking, with the "f" or other conditional in the train time column. Amtrak ETTs use "PS" for the same purpose.
Johnny and All:
In the NP public timetable, some stops were listed as "stops for revenue passengers only".
A humorous note about the Chicago Great Western's Omaha to Minneapolis "Mill Cities Limited". They had regular stops, but all other stations were listed as stopping for passengers. In other words "The Limited" stopped at every town on the run from Minneapolis to Omaha or vice versa!
I should have stipulated that the letter "f" denoted a stop only if a passenger or passnegers wished to board or detrain.
Johnny
rcdrye In the OG listings for the Rutland Railroad in 1948, station times at certain intermediate stations (especially northbound) were replaced with codes like g z and m p v. What is the purpose of these codes?
In the OG listings for the Rutland Railroad in 1948, station times at certain intermediate stations (especially northbound) were replaced with codes like g z and m p v. What is the purpose of these codes?
In the ETT, an "s" indicated a scheduled stop, and other letters, as necessary, indicated conditional stops.
A NIGHT AT BUFFALO CENTRAL TERMINAL - 21:15 TO 04:30
SEPTEMBER 1954
EASTBOUND
TRAIN # /NAME
ORIGIN/DESTINATION
CARS SWITCHED
ARRIVED
DEPARTED
380 TORONTO-BUFFALO EXPRESS
TORONTO-BUFFALO
DROPS TORONTO-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#46
21:15
TERMINATES
44 NEW YORK SPECIAL
CHICAGO - NEW YORK CITY
DROPS:
DETROIT-BUFFALO THRIFT GRILL
DETROIT-BOSTON SLEEPER/LOUNGE FOR T#46
DETROIT-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#46
DETROIT-HOBOKEN 6 SECTION/6 DBR SLEEPER FOR DL&W T#2
PICKS UP:
TORONTO-NYC COACHES FROM T#380
NIAGARA FALLS-NYC 6 DBR/BUFFET FROM T #246
NIAGARA FALLS-NYC 10-5 SLEEPER FROM T#246
21:50
22:25
46 INTER STATE EXPRESS
CHICAGO-BOSTON
DETROIT-BOSTON SLEEPER/LOUNGE FROM T#44
DETROIT-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#44
BUFFALO-BOSTON 22 ROOMETTE SLEEPER
TORONTO-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#380
21:55
22:20
284 PITTSBURGH-BUFFALO EXPRESS
PITTSBURGH-BUFFALO
PITTSBURGH-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#28
PITTSBURGH-MASSENA 8 SECTION-4 DBR SLEEPER FOR T#78
6 FIFTH AVENUE SPECIAL
CHICAGO-NEW YORK CITY
DINING CAR
TAVERN LOUNGE COACH
CLEVELAND-ALBANY 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#78
22:45
23:00
48 DETROITER
DETROIT-NEW YORK CITY
DETROIT-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#28
BUFFALO-NEW YORK CITY 10-6 SLEEPER
BUFFALO-NEW YORK CITY 22 RMT SLEEPER
BUFFALO-NEW YORK CITY 6 DBR-BUFFET
23:30
23:59
28 NEW ENGLAND STATES
PITTSBURGH-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#284
DETROIT-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#48
23:38
00:05
328 THE ONTARIAN
TORONTO- NEW YORK CITY 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#16
TORONTO- NEW YORK CITY 4-4-2 SLEEPER FROM T#16
TORONTO- NEW YORK CITY 13 DBR SLEEPER FOR T#16
TORONTO- CLEVELAND 17 RMT SLEEPER FOR T#19
TORONTO-PITTSBURGH 10-5 SLEEPER FOR T#279
23:50
12-58 CLEVELAND LIMITED/SOUTHWESTERN LTD.
ST.LOUIS-CLEVELAND
ST.LOUIS-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#78
ST.LOUIS-BOSTON COACH FOR T#78
00:10
00:25
16 OHIO STATE LIMITED
CINCINNATI - NEW YORK CITY
CINCINNATI- BUFFALO 22 RMT SLEEPER
CINCINNATI- BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FOR T#78
CINCINNATI- NEW YORK CITY 22 RMT SLEEPER FOR T#24
00:18
00:34
2-66 PACEMAKER/ADVANCE COMMODORE VANDERBILT
NO PASSENGER STOP - NO CARS SWITCHED
00:23
00:30
8-78 WOLVERINE - PAUL REVERE
CHICAGO - BOSTON
CINCINNATI-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#16
ST.LOUIS-BOSTON 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#12
CLEVELAND-ALBANY 10-6 SLEEPER FROM T#6
PITTSBURGH-MASSENA 8SECT.4DBR SLEEPER FROM #284
ST.LOUIS-BOSTON COACHES FROM T#16
BUFFALO-BOSTON COACHES
00:55
01:14
26 20TH CENTURY LIMITED
NO SCHEDULED PASSENGER WORK
01:00
01:05
68 COMMODORE VANDERBILT
01:30
01:35
364
DETROIT-BUFFALO
DETROIT-ALBANY 12SECT-1DR SLEEPER FOR T#24
03:05
24 KNICKERBOCKER
ST.LOUIS - NEW YORK CITY
CLEVELAND-TORONTO 17 RMT SLEEPER FOR T#371
PITTSBURGH-TORONTO 10-5 SLEEPER FOR T#371
PITTSBURGH-BUFFALO 17 RMT SLEEPER
PITTSBURGH-BUFFALO COACH
CINCINNATI-NEW YORK CITY 22 RMT SLEEPER FROM T#16
DETROIT-ALBANY 12SECT-1DR SLEEPER FROM T#364
03:36
03:55
22 LAKE SHORE LIMITED
CHICAGO-BUFFALO 10-6 SLEEPER
04:20
04:27
I'm on the ice at 8pm so have an hour ( Saskatchewan time) so I put up the key to avoid any further confusion.
rcdrye is the winner ...did pretty good...this is a fascinating read though.
My earlier posting " #14 is wrong." should read "your ( rcdrye) #16 is wrong.
I apologize...too much going on!
Believe the train you missed is #44 The New York Special in the #2 spot. It has 4 drop offs and 3 pick ups. Arr 21:50 Lv 22:25
# 17 --The Lake Shore Limited scheduled arrival at 04:20 and departure at 04:27 ..Chicago-New York and drops off the Chicago-Buffalo 10-6 sleeper.
The Ontarian is correct and is blank position #8 arriving at 23:50 and is terminated but drops 5 sleepers to continue on to New York, one for Cleveland and one for Pittsburgh.
The Wolverine-Paul Revere in #12 was combined Chicago-Boston and picks up a sleeper from Cincinnati and another from St. Louis for Boston, a Cleveland to Albany sleeper, a Pittsburgh sleeper to Massena, and St, Louis -Boston coaches. It arrived at 00:55 and departed at 01:14 after some very complex switching moves.
I will put up the 'key' when I get back from curling, later tonight, if I'm still breathing.
Big Bonspiel this weekend.
What I had as the Cleveland Special was really unnamed train 244, carrying a through coach from Cincinnati, arriving at 9:25PM. The Interstate Express was combined with the New York Special (via Detroit) arriving at 9:40PM. Looks like I left out the Ontarian and the Wolverine, too. On the other hand 364 wasn't there in 1948... There was also a Toronto-Buffalo train listed as 821 which rolled in eastbound around 1225 AM
In 1948 the Commodore Vanderbilt ran ahead of the Century, and the Southwestern Limited ran in two sections, more or less MP/T&P in one and Frisco/MKT in the other.
So what's the replacement for the wrong one?
The Cleveland Special seems to have been combined with various other trains over the years, often something from Cincinnati. It wouldn't surprise me either if it was a Mercury of some sort or other. I was working from a hole between 1948 and 1957 OGs. It was combined with another train in 1948 - I'll have to look it up later today.
I knew some of the shifts that took place after 1948 would mess with the order. The Ohio State was upgraded in 1949 and slightly downgraded in 1953, the Paul Revere was reduced to something just above a mail and express train, though it carried the Boston cars for several others east of Buffalo.
Of the trains in the list that you put there, about half didn't show times for Buffalo (including the Southwestern Limited and the Advance Commodore Vanderbilt) since it was not a passenger stop for them, making the order harder to set. I was figuring I'd be doing well with 50% !
rcdrye--#3 and #5 are correct. Your #8 the Ohio State, #10 Paul Revere, # 12 Knickerbocker are not in the right spots but the trains are correct , and you are close with the placement.
Your #2 has a similiar name on this document but is combined with something else that we recently discussed but it is in the wrong spot entirely.
#14 is wrong.
Great effort.
Miningman NP Eddie---ah-ha, makes sense. Equalization in mileage. Ok I'll throw one out. A 'Fill In The Blanks' Drawing on my 'one night in Buffalo' thread (not required to read that) there were 17 Eastbound trains arriving at Buffalo Union Terminal in September 1954, between the hours of 9:15pm (21:15) and 4:30 am (04:30). In order of times of scheduled arrival starting at 21:15 and ending at 04:20. Don't need times just the train names. Eastbound Only! 1.Toronto-Buffalo Express 2.____________________ 3.____________________ 4. Pittsburgh Buffalo Express 5.____________________ 6. Detroiter 7. New England States 8. ____________________ 9. Cleveland Limited/Southwestern Limited 10. ___________________ 11. Pacemaker/Advance Commodore 12. ____________________ 13. 20th Century Limited 14. Commodore Vanderbilt 15. # 364 ( Detroit-Buffalo) 16. _____________________ 17. Lake Shore Limited
NP Eddie---ah-ha, makes sense. Equalization in mileage.
Ok I'll throw one out. A 'Fill In The Blanks'
Drawing on my 'one night in Buffalo' thread (not required to read that) there were 17 Eastbound trains arriving at Buffalo Union Terminal in September 1954, between the hours of 9:15pm (21:15) and 4:30 am (04:30). In order of times of scheduled arrival starting at 21:15 and ending at 04:20. Don't need times just the train names.
Eastbound Only!
1.Toronto-Buffalo Express
2.____________________
3.____________________
4. Pittsburgh Buffalo Express
5.____________________
6. Detroiter
7. New England States
8. ____________________
9. Cleveland Limited/Southwestern Limited
10. ___________________
11. Pacemaker/Advance Commodore
12. ____________________
13. 20th Century Limited
14. Commodore Vanderbilt
15. # 364 ( Detroit-Buffalo)
16. _____________________
17. Lake Shore Limited
2. Cleveland Special
3. Interstate Express (picked up 2 sleepers)
5 Fifth Avenue Special (picked up one sleeper)
8 Ohio State Limited
10 Paul Revere (picked up three sleepers)
12 Knickerbocker (dropped one sleeper)
16 Water Level (picked up two).
Figuring this out was complicated by some trains (mostly all-Pullman, but including the all coach Pacemaker) not listing times at Buffalo, including the New England States, which picked a couple of cars up each night at Buffalo, without, apparently, stopping there...
The answer involves seniority districts. One from Staples/East Grand Forks, MN to Dilworth, MN and the second one from Dilworth, MN to Jamestown, ND. The East Grand Forks engineer operated the train into Fargo, ND and returned the Budd Car to the Dilworth roundhouse, which was lap mileage. One month during the summer, a Dilworth engineer "worked" off the lap mileage to equalize said mileage.
Next question to anyone.
Rob:
Nope. The engineer involved operated a locomotive hauled train from Staples, MN to Dilworth, MN. Hints are from East Grand Forks, MN to Dilworth, MN and Dilworth, MN to Jamestown, ND. Happy hunting.
Just making a guess - the Duluth/Superior to Staples RDC was known as the "Staples Streetcar" locally. Did the engineer of the Winnipeg train take August off, requiring an RDC-qualified motorman to relieve him?
NP Eddie--Not a duplicate question at all. Was trying to search for the answer and remembered that MAYBE you told us a story somewhere a while ago relating to this.
Definitely keep the question
Miningman:
If this is a duplicate question, I apologize and I will offer another question.
I'm positive you told us about the story on this once but dang'd if I could find it.
Dave and All:
Yes I am glad to be back to work! My question is regarding Northern Pacific passenger service between Fargo, ND and Winnipeg, MB. The engineer was from East Grand Forks, MN and operated the train (his part) from East Grand Forks to Fargo, ND with the Budd Car going back to Dilworth, MN, the roundhouse. Why did the Dilworth to Jamestown, ND crews have a passenger engineer from Staples, MN to Dilworth, MN for one month in the summer?
Welcome back, and glad the operation was a success.
I will submit a question Wednesday. Today was my first day back to work after a 90 day leave of absence with a quadruple by-pass. Now I know what a fish feels like to be filleted!
Have him throw. I am driving a bunch on very restricted devices, so I 'reserve the balance of my time'.
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