Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

[Overmod]

Thank you. I know I'm lagging.  Someone ask one in the meantime to keep things rolling.

[Miningman]

Bumping this up so it doesn't sink into the abyss.

[daveklepper]

Reminder to OM.  Still waiting on you!

[rcdrye]

Even though Cleveland Railways (and later Cleveland Transit System) did operate Shaker Rapid Transit, it was owned first by the Van Sweringens (as Cleveland Interurban Railroad) and later by the City of Shaker Heights and operated under contract.  Shaker Rapid Transit became part of RTA in 1975.  The unique aspect of Cleveland's 1910 arrangement was that return on investment was part of the cost used to calculate the fare base.  This was a big contrast with Chicago, where the companies underlying Chicago Surface lines remained in bankruptcy for years after the CSL was organized in 1913.

There was some concern over the years that Shaker Heights was getting too good a deal from Cleveland Railways, with 1200 series cars and others leased at below cost rates.

[daveklepper]

Only two transit properties and then one?  What about Shaker Heights Rapid Transit, which also operated in Cleveland, and did provide service within Cleveland as well as in Shaker Heigts?

But OK anyway, and streetcars did continue after 1942, even including the purchase of post-WWII PCCs, later sold to Toronto and made mu.

Look forward to OM's question.

[rcdrye]

Overmod

Where's Penny?  This has gotta be Cleveland.

 

Between Mark Hanna's monopoly instincts, and Tom L. Johnson's "Three Cent" line, Cleveland was hit with a transit war that included such feats as line extensions to the Public Square embedded in poured cinders, with line poles in cement-filled barrels.  Both Hanna, a Republican kingmaker, and Johnson, a socialist(-ish) gilded-age millionaire whose public service instincts were rooted in helping Johnstown recover from the flood, refused to give quarter.  Johnson was Mayor during several years of the conflict. Both men were dead by 1910 when the companies and the City Council hammered out the agreement that gave Cleveland Railways stockholders a guaranteed 6% in exchange for near total City control.  Of course the Cleveland Transit Commission also produced its own personalities, like Commissioner Peter Witt.  Cleveland took over the system directly in 1942.

Cleveland, like Chicago, got "settlement ordinances" around 1907, which required streetcar franchises to include provisions for operating to the expanded city limits.  With both companies already operating at substantial losses, the time was right for the City to set direction.

Hanna's "Big Con" (for "Conslidation") and Johnson's "Little Con" were both products of mergers and purchases.

[daveklepper]

Well, Brooklyn was a separae city before unification of the city in 1897, and  Brooklyn United - Brooklyn Rapid Transit did end up running all the streetcar lines - Except possibly Von Brundt Street, possibly, but definitely the Manhattan Bridge Three Cent Line.

But that is not what you are looking for, because by that time Unification of the City had taken place, and there seven or eight streetcar companies counting all boroughs.

Aain, as a help, I assume municipal ownership occured after bus conversion.

[Overmod]

Where's Penny?  This has gotta be Cleveland.

[rcdrye]

Scranton never dipped below the industry standard 5 cent mark.  This city did, and one of the lines used its lower fare in its name for a while.

[daveklepper]

The city took over after bus conversion.  One city that meets the desciption is Scranton, PA.

[rcdrye]

After a decade or more of control battles for streetcar franchises in this city, both major companies were charging less than five cents per ride, so both were losing money.  By agreement with the city council, the bankrupt companies merged and traded a franchise with a guaranteed 6% rate of return for effective control by the city's Transit Commission.  The company operated for several decades before the city assumed direct control. Name the city.

[daveklepper]

Correct.  And all New York/Brooklyn  elevated lines had this standard for their high-level  platforms and car designs.   (Fulton Street and the Brooklyn Bridge were exceptions,) The IRT kept this standard for the new subway opened in 1904.   (Third rail was a different matter and needs a separate discussion.  Except for the Third Avenue-Webster Avenue [gravity-shoe] and Pelham Bay [cover-board-protected, sprung shoe], all Bronx elevated structures  to the 1950s had two third rails!)  And all subsequent IRT subway and new elevated lines kept the old width.

 

Brooklyn Rapid Transit handled freight but not on the elevated structures that existed in 1904.  Its first BMT subways, under  Brooklyn's 4^th Avenue, and the Williamsburg Bridge line from Delancy and Essex to Chambers Street and Park Row were  designed for 10-ft-wide cars, with 4^th Avenue to allow freight movements and opened in 1916.  The Stillwell-designed "steels" were ten-foot wide.

 

The Gibbs-car design for the LIRR and IRT was the same in all dimensions.   The IRT Gibbs cars later got the center-doors and fish-belly side-sill reinforcement, but not the LRR cars.

 

As BRT-BMT surface operation of elevated trains was replaced by elevated structure operation, or in two cases by streetcars, the BRT (BMT after reorganization after Malbone Street) rebuilt the elevated cars without steps and traps.  A dimpled steel plate about an inch above platform hight on structures that had not been rebuilt or were new gave an effective width of 9'-2".

 

Look forward to  your question,

[rcdrye]

daveklepper

And just what was different about Gibbs cars that made them seldom if ever used in Penn Station service?

I'd have to guess, but I think they were narrower than standard LIRR cars - probably the BMT standard 8' 8".

[daveklepper]

The adjustable third rail was needed for a sum er-only 1905-1909 joint operation with the BRT (BMT) that still used gravity 3^rd-rail shoes and a close-in 3^rd rail, although conversion to the standard LIRR-BMT-IND-SIRT-PRR-H&M-Willksbarry-&-Hazelton 3^rd rail began on the Williamsburg Bridge – Broadway – East Fulton Street –line before the joint service betweem Essex and Delancy Street and Rockaway Park ended.  The planned joint service with the IRT was never implemented.  The tunnel and roadbed can be seen at the west end of the north platform of the Flatbush Avenue LIRR Brooklyn Terminal.  Tales of Belmont's private car, Mineoila, now at Shore Line Trolley Musuem, operating on the LIRR, would indicate the track connection once did exist.

And just what was different about Gibbs cars that made them seldom if ever used in Penn Station service?

[rcdrye]

The MP41 "Gibbs Car" was designed to operate (and did operate) in joint services with the IRT, which had similar cars also designed by Gibbs.  The LIRR cars had traps and steps, but the IRT cars did not.  Some were rebuilt with fishbelly underframes to allow for side doors.

Among other interesting features on the Gibbs cars were two-position third rail shoes designed to change between LIRR and IRT settings, using a cam section in the third rail.

[daveklepper]

The best-known and classic LIRR MUs were DC MP-54s, with some variations, including motors, trailers, control trailers, and combines.  All combines had RR-roofs, but most motors and trailers, arch roofs.  And subsequent MUS, both the prewar double-deckers, and the longer NY-State and PNYNJ-funded postward cars could all mu with them.  But the first steel LIRR cars, also MUs, at first used with wood open-platform trailers previously used with steam, were not MP54s, could not mu with them, possibly had a joint service in mind that never existed, but did run in an another seasonal joint service, came on line a few years before the opening of Penn Station, may never have run into Penn Station, did visit Manhattan in a seasonal service.  There was one very important difference between these cars and nearly all other steel railroad passenger cars, including MUs..

Describe what they were, as completely as possible, including who operated similar equipment.

[Deggesty]

Yes, Dave, it was  the East Coast Champion that carried a PRR duplex room Pullman.

In 1943, the train was named the Tamiami Champion, and in the winter it ran in three secions--an all-coach section and a coach and Pullman section for Miami, and a coach and Pullman section for the West Coast. By 1951, the year-round train was running as entirely separate trains (each with its own name) for the East Coast and for the West Coast.

The SCL merger came, as I recall, 7/1/67. As you noted, the FEC was struck before then, and the ACL trains ran over the SAL between Auburndale and Miami. 

[daveklepper]

The most likely, the most patronized, the train with the patrons that would most appreciate it, would be the ACL's  East Coast Chamiion, with PRR,RF&P, and FEC mileage under its wheels.  And the ACL had the kind of passenger management that would go after an innovation, NY - Miami.  But wait,by 1967, the East Coast Champion went ACL to Auburndale via Orlando, and the SAL to Miami, not FEC from Jacksonville.  Also, had the SCL merger occured by then?  But the ECC contined to Amtrak as far as I can remember.  And the RF&P was still independent.

The original 1939 was coach-only, but it got sleepers right after WWII or erhas earlier.   If my memory is correct.

[Deggesty]

Dave, you are getting on the right track. The train, however, was not an all-Pullman train. I would say it was the creation of one railroad, but ran over other roads as well from origin to destination. 

[daveklepper]

The most likely answer to your question, then, is one of the three railroads to the south interchanging with the PRR in Washington, the Sourthern, ACL, and SAL.  But the latter two interchanged via the RF&P, and you did not indicate a third railroad involved.  So the Southern would be my first choice.  The all-Pullman Crescent?  But that would also involve the two West Point railroads and the L&N.  Unless the car came off at Atlanta.

The other possibility is the Penn Texas and then the MP Texas Eagle, interchange at St. Louis.

[Jones1945]

Overmod

Who has consists for the South Wind?  (PRR-L&N-ACL but the cars I'm remembering being 4-roomette (!) painted Northern Pacific (!!) in the late '50s.)  I don't think you can say there is a 'principal' railroad for that train, though...

 

"The initial consist was baggage-dorm-coach No. 6700;

60-seat coaches 4022–4023;

48-seat diner No. 4518;

60- seat coaches 4020 and 4021;

16-seat dinette-buffet-35-seat lounge No. 1126."

http://passengertrainjournal.com/prr-south-wind/

L&N No. 295 Pulling the South Wind  in 1942

[Overmod]

Who has consists for the South Wind?  (PRR-L&N-ACL but the cars I'm remembering being 4-roomette (!) painted Northern Pacific (!!) in the late '50s.)  I don't think you can say there is a 'principal' railroad for that train, though...

[Deggesty]

The listing for the Federal inclued almost every type of accommodation but did not include duplex single rooms.

[rcdrye]

The Federal?  Through cars with the New Haven.

[Deggesty]

I would say that the the PRR still owned the cars. The train was operated year-round, but the consist changed with the seasons.

[daveklepper]

Was it seasonal?  Did the other railroad own the cars, or were they PRR?

[Deggesty]

No, Dave, it was not the New York-Roanoke Pullman--which had no name, and was gone bwfore 1967. It was a train that had several Pullmans on it.

[daveklepper]

I forgot the name of the train, but I believe it is the NY - Roanoke via Hagerstown PRR - N&W train.   The Shenendoa (sp?)?

[Deggesty]

I am not certain about the full history of the Everglades--its name indicates that it was operated to south Florida, but from 1951 on it ran no farther south than Jacksonville.

Another different configuration for sleepers was peculiar to the Pennsylvania--the duplex room/bedroom arrangement--which was used on at least one other road, in connection with the PRR.  In April of 1967, there was one operated on a train that the PRR handled for a part of its journey. Name the primary road and the train.

[rcdrye]

Dave was close with his first answer.  The corporate remains of the Connecticut Company were sold by theNew Haven in 1962.  The other former interurban property sold in 1958 to a different buyer was the Berkshire Street Railway, by that time the operator of the Pittsfield bus system.

Johnny was on the right track and should take the next question.  I was just looking for the 14 Rmt sleeper...  Both the Everglades and the Gulf Coast Special survived to April 30, 1971.