Dave, the only other trolley ramp I remember (after 1948 mind you) was at Weehawken to the WS-O&W terminal and that was alongside the roadway for the most part,,,and possibly another further north near Edgewater, too.
As for question clues, IGN, I kinda follow your clues but not the new car part...new cars have been delivered and are in service here...
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Since you remember riding to Union City or through Union City, you rode the down the ramp (two, one on each side of the elevated structure) just east of the curves where the elevated turned from running west from the DL&W Terminal to running south to Jersey City. The Weehauken and Union City lines entered and existed the elevated on these ramps. The Oakland line cars had a similar pair of ramps near the JC-Hoboken border, but I don't know on which side of the border. Then the elevated ended in a double-track ramp to private-right-of-way, before entering a street headed south-west to Journal Square. Of course I also remember well side-of-road steep descent on PRW to the Weehawken Terrminal.
I rode all these lines in 1947 and 1948, 15 and 16 years old. The first time was early in Autumn 1947, when my Columbia Grammar Prep. Junior class had an excursion to the Palasades Park Amusement Park, and we were told we could stay as long as we wanted and did not need to back with the group. We got there by subway to 125th Street and then the Ferry over to Forf Lee and the PSofNJ bus up the hill to the park. I knew about the PSofNJ's Hudson trolley division, so as soon as I could dissapear without being obvious, I paid my fare for the bus to Weehawken and spent the rest of the day trolley-car riding, before taking the DL&W ferry back to Manhattan (wihtout paying a fare, how I don't remember) and the use of my school bus pass on the M10 home.
My apoligies. It has been close on 10 years since I've ridden trains up that way. I was poking thru the web site and the 1st thing that was their was about some new cars. Also just out of curiosity on another subject has anyone done a book on NJ Public Service ' s rail operations? Many Thx IGN
Well I rode the line up the hill out of Hoboken in 1948,,,I was a ful five years old and only remember having pestered my grandfather that I wanted to ride!
As for books. Yes, there are several though I don't know their titles. I believe North Jersey Chapter of the NRHS has produced a lot of them. I do have the Morris County Traction book. If you log onto the NHRHS site or the chapter's site you should be able to track down (I made a pun!) the titles.
I thought we've moved on from the trolly and structure topic...I posted a new question...should I withdraw it?
Please repeat your question with all hints to date.
There is a book on Public Service trolley operations, but I don't have it. I think Don Engle might be the author. You might check the website for the Shore Line trolley Museum, which has a standard PSofNJ car: www.branford.org
My friend Bill Vigrass may help, and I think he may own the book. I'll ask and get back in a few days.
The cars that PSofNJ operated on the Hoboken Elevated, and until they were replaced by second-hand PCC's from the Twin Cities about 1954 in the Newark Subway as well, were all steel-framed heavy wood cars, built into the 1920's long after all other streetcar operators that bought new cars were buying lightweight steel cars.
Repeating question and hint:
henry6 I guess its up to me for the next stumper...so...I was reminded of this phenomona the other day as my Ridewithmehenry venture unfolded and we discussed the history and georgraphy of our surroundings. Kind of a riddle for you: this was an operation which was an actual continuous round (four directions in one trip? No, timetabled in only two.) trip really ending exactly where it started' neither freight nor passenger. If no answers come forth quickly, I will give a clue or two.
I guess its up to me for the next stumper...so...I was reminded of this phenomona the other day as my Ridewithmehenry venture unfolded and we discussed the history and georgraphy of our surroundings. Kind of a riddle for you: this was an operation which was an actual continuous round (four directions in one trip? No, timetabled in only two.) trip really ending exactly where it started' neither freight nor passenger. If no answers come forth quickly, I will give a clue or two.
Ok...no bites yet....a hint...the Ridewithmehenry trip this past Sat was from Denville, NJ on NJT to Hoboken, PATH to 33rd St. because of Amtrak power problem, then LIRR to Montauk. If more hinting is needed I will keep you posted.
I leave this up through Sunday and add hints then if needed...
Late Sunday afternoon and not a whisper of an answer...so lets post another clue: did you catch that the Ride With Me Henry ride was on the Long Island Railroad. If you didn't catch it take note and stamp in in your memor before this question is cancelled.
All right, since no one else came up with an answer, but why do say neither freight nor passenger? Do you put commuter outside passenger?
Because for years the LIRR ran the main portion of the Rockaway branch by having trains leave either Atlantic and Flatbush or Penn Station and going out to Far Rockway via the Hammels cutoff over Jamaicia bay, route now the Rockaway A-train subway branch, and returning via Valley Stream and Jamaica, and visa versa. So the run began at Atlantic and Flatbush and ended there without changing ends or having passengers evacuate. Ditto to and from Penn Station. Rode this service many times . I think it was on the TRAINS transit blog that I described the time as Manager of the Columbia Grammer football team I had the team board the wrong train at Woodmere, and we ended up in Brooklyn instead of Penn Station, which was fine for the team members living in Brooklyn, but a longer subway ride for those living in Manhattan. Took a lot of ribbing for weeks on that.
Yes, I remember your post, Dave. But your answer is not quite in the right bag as yet.
But it is a correct answer. Obviously, today, an answer would be the operations of the Kennedy Airport sky train, and there are three. One runs around in an approximate circle, and the other two, one based at LIRR Jamaica Station and one at the A-train Kennedy Airport - Broad Channel station go out, round the loop and come back without changing ends or asking people to leave and reboard. But that is today and this post is supposed to be 50 years ago, hence Far Rockaway service is a correct answer.
For the record, when the LIRR was running the complete service, the following routes were possible and were used, not all in one timetable, but throught the years all were experienced:
Penn Sta. - Jamaica - Valley Stream - Far Rockaway - Jamaica Bay - Penn Station
and reverse of above
Flatbush and Atlantic - Jamaica - Valley Stream - Far Rockaway - Jamaica Bay - Flatbush and Atlantic
Flatbush and Atlantic - Jamaica -Valley Stream - Far Rockaway - Jamaica Bay - Penn. Sta.
Flatbush and Atlantic - Jamaica Bay - Far Rockaway - Valley Stream - Jamaica - Penn Station
Penn Station - Jamaica Bay - Rockaway Park
and reverse
Penn Station - Jamaica -Valley Stream - Far Rockaway - Rockaway Park*
and reverse*
Flatbush and Atlantic - Jamaica Bay - Rockaway Park
Flatbush and Atlantic - Jamaica -Valley Stream - Far Rockaway - Rockaway Park*
Jamaica - - Valley Stream -Far Rockaway - Rockaway Park*
*Only a few trips each day. Also any route to or from Atlantic and Flatbush and also Penn Station could start or end at Jamaica.
Things were a lot simpler after the Hammels trestle burned and no LIRR trains ran over Jamaica Bay again, just restoration of service by the subway's A-train. The all LIRR service to the Rockaways was via Valley Stream and Jamaica Station
IN adition to all this, from about 1910 to 1913 a joint electric mu service was run by the LIRR and the Brooklyn Rapid Transit using alternate trains of LIRR Gibbs cars (MP-43's) and composite wood and steel BRT 1300-series gate cars during the four years' summer months: Chambers and Center Street Manhattan (a J-line station today) - Williamsburgh Bridge, Broadway Brooklyin Elevated, connection from East Fulton Street to LIRR Altantic Ave tracks then Jamaica Bay to Rockaway Park!
In a private email one suggested I am speaking of PATH and its routing out of Hoboken to 33rd St. But that is wrong ,too. Dave, it is not the routing that I am asking about...you've pretty well got that down as I would expect. However there is something else to which I was referring to...and it was something other than a train.
If I got the routing right, then I have got the answer. This is, afterall, a train Forum. If we are not discussing trains, what in the world is it on this Forum? Now obviously the engineer and rest of the crew (no fireman, several trainmen and conductor) stay with the train for the entire trip. As far as train numbers go, I suspect that the train switched numbers someplace because even and odd for east and west would be essential on the Atlantic Branch and on the main line from Jamaica to Penn Station, but the number switch could take place right at the Jamaic Bay line's junction (there were two, one near East NY to the Atlantic Branch and one between Forest Hills and Kew Gardens with the main line), which would allow the same number to be used from that spot out to the Rockaways and return to that point.
I don't know of any single train that did the route...but something else did....If you POST the correct answer I'll STAMP it as right..
That hint is obvious; you re talking about a railway post office car that made the route. But I assure you it was part of a train that did not get switched but made the complete route as a comoplete train, with the post office car included, one of those regular operations in my long list/. Yes, many trains did the complete route, not just one. The regular operation of the Rockaway Line, including the line over Jamaica Bay was to run the operation much as the Kenndy Airtrain does today in mineature.
Yes...the RPO car and route was what I was after and not just the train....that gives you the right answer and the source of our next question.
As for Air Train I believe there are two loops...one Jamaica to Kennedy to Jamaica and the other Howard Beach. to Kennedy to Howard Beach. One of my Ride With Me Henry Trips did the line from Jamaica and had to change somewhere on the back side of Kennedty to get the right train to Howard Beach. where today's A train runs on the former LIRR Rockaway Br. ROW to Woodhaven Blvd. We went to Broadway Jct. for the J train. This time of year especially you can see where the Rockaway Branch continued north from Woodhaven and at Kew Gardens you can see where the line takes off from the main line and where the fly over came down to the westbound tracks. As I've often said there is a lot of old railroad structures and lanmarks still visable when you go at the right time, know what you're looking for, and keep your eyes open!
And th Broad Channel JFK Station where you boarded the A train for Broaway Jc. - E. NY was the site of the old LIRR Broad Channel Station which was a much more primitive and simple station, never got high platforms.
Question: Name a New England railroad, a short line, that continued with a sort of scheduled passenger service through WWII, shared a bridge built for two tracks with one "lane" for an interurban line, abandoned before the short line itself came into corporate existance, and included in its main line a switchback with siding requiring the locomotive to run around the train, meaning tender-first operation for a portion of each trip. Name the railroad. Why the switchback? What was the interurban line? What locomotives did the railroad use? All other information you can supply will be welcoem.
I'm guessing it was on the east side of the Connecticut River which would be the Cleremont and Concord. If not, I'd jump across the river and go south a few miles for my second guess. 44 ton diesels were their power in modern times but first were steeple cab electrics. Used to go all the way to Concord, NH in steam connecting the B&M at Cleremont Jct with the B&M in Concord. Still can see a car and some stuff at Wendell where Rts 11 and 103 split. Oh, and if you've ever seen the climb from the CT River up to Cleremont, the tight walls, the steep hill, the number of mill buildings and the like, then you know why the zig zaging and switchbacking.
Rode it twice when it was a B&M branch, once on a regular run from Concord to Clairmont Jc to connect with the Day White Mountains Exp. to GCT, NY. 2-6-0 with four ex-Pennsy P-54 coaches and one similar combine. Once on a Boston NRHS "round-the mountains" fan trip, with two 2-6-0's and eight wood open-platform coaches. Wrong answer. No switchback. No shared bridge with an interurban line, . Not Springfield Terminal. Hint: C&C is closer than ST.
That reminds me. I think the LIRR's four or five rpo-bag cars for use in commuter trains had regular vestibules at each end, had third rail shoes for light and heat power pick-up, but were control trailers with operating controles at the right in both end's vestibules. One other dc car was built with these plans, but with trolle poles insteada of shoes, for the PRSL Camden - Glassboro line. And there were about 25 AC versions with pantographs for the PRR. Someone have the rosters to check?
Sunapee?
I don't believe New England ever had a "Sunapee" RR, but you are very very close.
Sunapee branched off the C&C at Wendell,NH to Lake Sunapee.
C&C was part of the Boston and Maine until well after WWII. I didn't know there was a Sunapee branch and would question that if it was a separate short line, it must have been during the B&M ownership of the Concord-Clairmont Jc. line. But it is not the answer, unless it had a switchback. I doubt that it did because the reason for the switchback didn't exist in the territory served by the C&C. Also, although there was interurban operation at one time between Clairmont and Clairmont Jc. over the track that became the C&C, there certainly was no trolley wire in the area of Lake Sunapee.
But again you are very very very close. Hint, this railroad (the one with the switchback and using a bridge built for double track with one track used by an interurban) was also once part of the B&M. And the interurban was owned by the B&M. It connected two communities much larger than Sunapee, or Clairmont or Clairmont Junction. --or Spingfield or Springfied Jc. for that matter!
Further hint: The switchback arrangement occurred because the B&M once had two parallel lines between the two cities that were also connected by the B&M-owned interurban. And again, you were very close.
Further hints. The railroad whose name I am requested operated with 2nd hand B&M locomotives, usually jsut one at a time, and an ex-B&M GE 44-tonner replaced the last steam. The other piece of rolling stock was a combine with a closed, non-vestibule end on one end, next a 15-ft RPO section, a 27 or so foot baggage compartment, a 30 ft. passenger compartment, five rows of turnover reversable seats on one side and six on the other with a caboose style caol stove, and an open platform. Where a passenger of the daily mixed connected with the B&M, one could board trains for Montreal or Boston or Clairmont Jc (B&M) and a through Pullman to New York City - GCT. This last reversed direction in its nightly travels.
More hints necessary? That sleeping car also called at Providence, New London, and New Haven, but not Boston. Still one could board a sleeping car very early in the morning to go to Boston if one wanted to, or late at night to go to Montreal. At one time there were two routes, both with sleeping cars to Montreal, even while the short line started its independent existance. But only one practical route to Boston, except for a minor deviation used by suburban trains in the Boston suburban area.
As far as can remember, the railroad owned only two pieces of revenue equipment, one 4-6-0 or 2-6-0 small steam locomotive, replaced by GE 44-ton ex B&M. And a combine, with an open platform on one end, no traps, just steps and hand rails and a door to the interior, a 28-foot or so passenger compartment, with six walkover dual seats on one side with near-black leather grey upholstery, and five on the other side, and a caboose stove, and a 20 foot or so baggage compartment, with a large side door, and a 15-foot standard compact mail compartment and a blind end without vestibule or platform.
The switchback operation was implemented while the branch was still run by the B&M when it abandoned most of one of the two parallel lines, leaving enough just to access the branch.
I rode the Concord and Clarimon line twice, while it was still B&M. I rode railroad in quesiton four times, all in one summer, while it was still steam operated. Age 13, first experience riding a mixed train.
My thinking cap is on but the brain isn't. Nor has my ability to take time around the computer to pay more attention, Dave....but I am working on it. Tonite I will dig out my 1927 Guide, sneeze a bit because of it, and maybe come up with a name for you....I will be looking over at the lake area south of the Presidential Range between the Interstate and RT 25...
No, I see it was not the Woodstock railroad in Vt nor any of the many branches in NH. So the only one I can come up with is the Montpelier and Wells which eventually was Canadian Pacific. At Wells RIver B&M could take you direct to Boston thorugh New Hampshire or down the Connecticut River Valley to Greenfied and east.to Boston; or down the Valley to Springfield and the New Haven connections to GCT (even Penn Sta trains like the Montrealer. North and west from Wells RIver the CP to Montreal or down to White RIver JCt and up the CV/CN to Montreal. And there probably was a way to go to Littleton, NH, then the Maine Central to the St. Johnsbury and Lamoille Co. (or whatever the name was at different times) to CP or GT to Montreal. The switchback was somewhere near Montpelier I believe.
IN 1927 the line, like the Concord and Clairmont, was operated by the B&M and did not need or use a switchback, although the switchback track was already there, but part of an alternate line between two communities. The line was bought by Sam Pinsleyjust before WWII, with the idea of running it at low cost for as long as it would earn its keep and then realize the scrap value. About the time he finally scrapped this railroad he bought the Concord and Clairmont from the B&M.
In addition to the one locomotive and the one combine, the outfit also owned a bus and possibliy a truck. This was useful, because the rail mileage contracted slightly just before WWII. The branch never reached its ultimate destination, where it was supposed to connect with another branch that came off the main B&M line farther to the east. This branch had also contracted, and the connection point, a popular vacation destination with a beach on one of NE's largest lakes, probably still has its railroad staton and semifore without tracks. I rode the bus, both as a regular passenger, and in charter to the summer camp I was attending.
The summer was 1945, the summer the Japanese finally surrended. I needed regular visits to a dentist, and my NY dentist arranged with my regular visits to one at the city where the railroad in question interchanged passenger (if any) with the B&M, and so did their bus (which always did have passengers). The camp was aware of the need for my visits, so after breakfast at the camp, I would walk to the "head of the road" and wait for the city-bound bus, with the assumption by the camp people that I would return on the evening return trip . Which I did, once. But on that first visit to the dentist, at the stop at what became the terminal of the railroad after it was contracted, I saw the steam locomotive, the combine, and some freight cars. In answer to my question, the bus driver said: "Yes, David, that is ours also. Why, do you want to ride it?" So he explained to me when it left from the city's station (which was also the bus stop) and that he would be sure in the future to have me make the connection at the railroad's end point. I had four more visits to the dentist that summer, and rode the train on the return each time. I also rode the Concord and Clairmont in B&M second-hand ex-PRR P-54 coaches behind a 2-6-0.
B & O
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