Wasn't it the interchangablity of trainsets' equipment so that a Chief could be turned to a Super Chief and vice versa?
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henry6 Wasn't it the interchangablity of trainsets' equipment so that a Chief could be turned to a Super Chief and vice versa?
The question that I'm asking relates to the de-Luxe and Chief only. The attribute I'm looking for transcends equipment.
This may help - look in the timetables.......
ZephyrOverland wanswheel: 63 hours. That may have been true for awhile, but the attribute I'm looking for applied to both trains during the entire time each train existed. You can say without this, the trains could not have operated on a regular basis.
wanswheel: 63 hours.
63 hours.
That may have been true for awhile, but the attribute I'm looking for applied to both trains during the entire time each train existed. You can say without this, the trains could not have operated on a regular basis.
Fred Harvey's catering?
al-in-chgo ZephyrOverland: wanswheel: 63 hours. That may have been true for awhile, but the attribute I'm looking for applied to both trains during the entire time each train existed. You can say without this, the trains could not have operated on a regular basis. Fred Harvey's catering?
ZephyrOverland: wanswheel: 63 hours. That may have been true for awhile, but the attribute I'm looking for applied to both trains during the entire time each train existed. You can say without this, the trains could not have operated on a regular basis.
Good guess but your answer could apply to a number of Santa Fe trains. The answer I'm looking for has to do specifically with the de-Luxe and Chief.
No. 19
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/ATSFT.jpg
http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track8/chief194812.html
wanswheel No. 19 http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/ATSFT.jpg http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track8/chief194812.html
You got it! Both trains had the same running numbers, #19 and 20. I wonder when the Chief was being planned they had intended to use the numbers of the de-Luxe in light the type of train the de-Luxe was and the Chief was going to be.
Good job!
We await your question.
By the way, Santa Fe was not the only beneficiary of the Fred Harvey system. Fred Harvey also served the FRISCO and FRISCO eating houses as well....up to about the time of the Depression.
I have a 1922 Fred Harvey Frisco Eating House pass.
In New York in 1916, what old station that Lincoln had arrived at still had trains to Spuyten Duyvil?
Mike
Poughkeepsie?
This station was in New York City.
Specifically, the west 31st street station of the Hudson River Railroad, near the then-new Post Office, reached by the West Side Line. Wanswheel's answer is not sufficient, because New York City could also mean Grand Central Terminal, whose local trains to Croton-Harmon (then just Harmon) stopped at S. D. But if I rremember, the 1916 timetable should show two local trains between West 31st Street and S. D. each way each weekday, on the West Side Freight Line, a service that lasted until about 1932. 125th Street and Park Avenue was also New York City, and you could go by train to S. D.. Pennsylvania Station was also New York City. Hudson Terminal was also New York City. But only the West 31st Street station was operating in Lincoln's time, of all these various stations. In Lincoln's time, the service that eventually was cut back to 42nd St., Grand Central Depot and then Grand Central Terminal, operated to east 30th Street and Park Avenue, with a horse-car continuation to Park Row, including freight service, with the freight cars pulled by horses! The connection between the Hudson River Line and the tracks down Park Avenue came later.
New York and Hudson River Railroad, at the 30th. Street Depot in Manhattan, N. Y.
http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=972077
I think Train-O wins. Dave was first with information but the station was at 30th St.
Excerpt from A Train Ride For Mr. Lincoln by Marc B. Grayson
At Troy, the President's party was transferred to a new train of the Hudson River Railroad. The car provided for the President was described as: "one of the handsomest, perhaps, ever run in this country. The decorations are blue, with silver stars, and the rich sofas, carpeting and luxurious chairs give to the car the appearance of an elegantly furnished salon." Lincoln spoke briefly at Hudson, Rhinebeck, Poughkeepsie, Fishkill, and Peekskill. At 3 P.M., the special train arrived at the new 30th Street depot in New York, the nation's largest city with a population exceeding eight hundred thousand. Thirty-five carriages brought the travelers down Fifth Avenue and Broadway to the Astor House. Thirteen hundred policemen held crowds under control. Among those seeing Lincoln for the first time was Walt Whitman, surprised at the excitment in the city.
30th St. Station
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR2.jpg
30th St. Station looking east on 29th St. from 10th Ave.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR1.jpg
30th St. Station and Empire State Building under construction.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR7.jpg
30th St. Station milk sheds from 10th Ave.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR4.jpg
30th St. Station milk sheds from 9th Ave.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR5.jpg
30th St. Station and footbridge over the tracks
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR3.jpg
Footbridge looking north on 10th Ave, entrance to yard on the left
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR8.jpg
30th St. Station aerial view looking west.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR.jpg
Map
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRRmap.jpg
Studying the map, I can see why I said 31st insead of 30th Street. Apparently, some time after the the connecting link between the Hudson and Harlem lines, built along the east side of the Harlem River un C. Vanderbilt's management, the West 30th Street station and associated tracks were removed and the property sold. But the yard between 30th and 31st street, one block west between 10th and 11th Avenues was kept. I believe it was the unloading point and loading point for mail on NYCentral trains. And this is was the location for the platform for the remaining service to Spuyten D.into the 20th Century, if I am correct.
Look forward to Train=O's question.
30th St. Station was replaced by the Morgan Parcel Post Office.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/newhighline/02.30th%269th2.jpg
View of High Line, Morgan on the left
http://railyardsblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/historic-image-large.jpg
Morgan in 1932
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3095/3250628865_f1643d371b_b.jpg?rand=925007545
High Line construction at Morgan
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3046/3251452802_bf8b266219_b.jpg?rand=270807924
High line construction, Morgan on the right
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3096/3251450932_827656f3ca_b.jpg?rand=398233333
High Line tracks at Morgan
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3387/3250628745_1f86c3788b_b.jpg?rand=280661202
View of tracks and yard from Morgan
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3414/3250575471_3cfd1b0f9c_b.jpg?rand=169772561
RS-3 and top floors of Morgan in the distance on the right
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3323/3250737625_6c27d4032f_b.jpg?rand=714535022
Waiting for new question.....Mike
daveklepper Look forward to Train=O's question.
Any progress with the question, Train-O?
If no one minds I'll step in here with a new question....Where was the first Hump yard built, by which road and when it went into service?....Mike
Excerpt from Yards and Terminals and Their Operation by John Albert Droege (1906)
So far as can be learned, the first summit yard built in this country was at Honey Pot on the Sunbury division of the Pennsylvania Railroad, in 1890; although this method of switching was in use in Germany and France much earlier. One of the few points at which actual tests of service were made, and the results made known, was at Honey Pot, where on November 2, 1899, 176 cars were handled in six drafts, each car a "cut," and weighed as it passed over the scales. This work was done in one hour and three minutes, almost three cars a minute, a most remarkable performance.
Excerpt from Railroad Freight Transportation by Leonor Fresnell Loree (1922)
The "hump" or "summit" yard had long been in use in France, where it was known as dos d'ane. The first in this country was built by the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1890 at Honey Pot, in the anthracite region, near Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. It was a low "hump." about six feet high; the cars ran only a short way into the sidings and after the train was dropped over the "hump" the pushing engine came down the ladder and using the "ram" car and two poles pushed down the cars on three tracks at a time, to make room for the next draft. Its value was long unrecognized, but some of our Western Lines officers sensing its possibilities we installed a low "hump" at Bradford, Ohio, in 1900. This was followed by more elaborate installations with higher "humps" and almost at once its use spread rapidly, first superseding and then supplanting the poling yards. Its capacity is usually rated at 200 cars per hour, averaging two cars per cut, twice the speed of poling and four times the speed of "lancing," and it can, in emergencies, be crowded beyond this. The '' hump'' is helped very much if the classification tracks fall away from the ladder by even so little as 0.4 per cent. Where the classification tracks are flat the "hump" must be quite high, as a rule at least fourteen feet, and where severe winters with much snow prevail, often as much as twenty feet, the car resistance under these conditions being as much as double that of the summer. These high "humps" permit one great convenience, passing under the "hump" a track or tracks for the use of engines moving from the yard tracks to the ash-pit tracks. The initial falling grade after passing the summit is usually three to four per cent for 100 to 200 feet to insure a space interval between cuts that will enable them to enter the classification siding, the switch to be closed and ladder cleared before the following cut arrives. The remaining grade to the foot of the ladder decreases rapidly and is in effect a vertical curve. The long distance to the outside tracks and the resistance of curvature would suggest construction on a warped plane. Cars dropping from these high "humps" attain speeds of 15 and 25 miles per hour at the lead switches and must be handled by the car droppers with great care to avoid violent contacts and damage to equipment and lading.
Resort may also be had to the practice at the Honey Pot yard of keeping the ''hump'' low and pushing the cars down the classification tracks, three tracks at a time. Track scales are located near the summit on the descending grade. The right speed for accurate weighing lies somewhere between 3 and 6 miles per hour, according to the skill of the weighman. At 4 miles per hour over a 46-foot track scale the rate is equal to about six cars per minute, and at 5 miles per hour, to about eight cars per minute. As many as ten cars per minute have been weighed by a skilled weighman.
Well , Hm, Guess I'll have to give you this one. :-) Seems you have a bit better source than I do. What I was look at would be West Altoona ( Bells Mills Pa ) . What may be different is that Bells Mills had car retarders, and more resembled a modern hump yard. It was started April 15 1902 and finished May 11, 1905. Next question is yours, sir....Mike
What year was the St. Lawrence scrapped and the 706 built?
Mike MacDonald
My father wrote this letter to Locomotive Engineers Journal. At 14, he was a messenger at the St. Albans dispatcher's office. His father and two of his uncles were engineers.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/CV706-1.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/CV_700.jpg
1928. Anyone with a question ready is welcome to the next turn.
I am a proud son of Joseph V. MacDonald (1914-1978), who wrote a proposal for restoration of the Montrealer and organized a grass roots campaign to make it happen, which brought Amtrak service to Vermont in 1972. In 1974, he was appointed by President Nixon to the Amtrak board of directors as a "consumer representative," on the recommendation of Sen. George D. Aiken of Vermont. When he died, Amtrak re-named two former Santa Fe sleeping cars for him and my mother. In December 2000, Trains published an article he wrote in 1975, We Brought the NYC to Its Knees. I was amazed to discover a letter containing his youthful eye-witness take on CV progress digitally preserved, thanks to Northwestern University Transportation Library.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/LEJ1.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/LEJ2.jpg
wanswheel 1928. Anyone with a question ready is welcome to the next turn. I am a proud son of Joseph V. MacDonald (1914-1978), who wrote a proposal for restoration of the Montrealer and organized a grass roots campaign to make it happen, which brought Amtrak service to Vermont in 1972. In 1974, he was appointed by President Nixon to the Amtrak board of directors as a "consumer representative," on the recommendation of Sen. George D. Aiken of Vermont. When he died, Amtrak re-named two former Santa Fe sleeping cars for him and my mother. In December 2000, Trains published an article he wrote in 1975, We Brought the NYC to Its Knees. I was amazed to discover a letter containing his youthful eye-witness take on CV progress digitally preserved, thanks to Northwestern University Transportation Library. http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/LEJ1.jpg http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/LEJ2.jpg Mike
Anyway, one item in the Journal, about the two brothers who "pull the same train" interested me, in that I knew of two brothers on the IC's Louisiana Division who, forty and more years ago, ran the Panama Limited between Canton and New Orleans. C. Y. Penn and his brother would regularly greet each other about seven each morning as one came into McComb from Canton, and the other would go out down to New Orleans (northbound, they ran New Orleans to Canton). Away from McComb 24 hours, traveling 400 miles (100 to New Orleans, 200 miles to Canton, 100 miles to McComb), and in McComb for 24 hours.
A new question: In 1911, it was possible to ride the Florida Special (this was NOT the ACL train) between the Midwest and Jacksonville. What roads operated this train?
Johnny
Deggesty A new question: In 1911, it was possible to ride the Florida Special (this was NOT the ACL train) between the Midwest and Jacksonville. What roads operated this train?
The Queen & Crescent and the Southern operated the Cincinnati-Jacksonville Florida Special during this time period.
Deggesty Say, Mike, can you explain how it is
Say, Mike, can you explain how it is
Johnny, I edited my posts, deleting 3 pictures of the 706 with the elephant and substituting links to the big pictures of the 706 and the 700 and to the images of the front page and letters page of Locomotive Engineers Journal. I'm glad you found something interesting, which naturally was my hope.
ZephyrOverland Deggesty: A new question: In 1911, it was possible to ride the Florida Special (this was NOT the ACL train) between the Midwest and Jacksonville. What roads operated this train? The Queen & Crescent and the Southern operated the Cincinnati-Jacksonville Florida Special during this time period.
Deggesty: A new question: In 1911, it was possible to ride the Florida Special (this was NOT the ACL train) between the Midwest and Jacksonville. What roads operated this train?
Next question, please, sir.
wanswheel Deggesty: Say, Mike, can you explain how it is Johnny, I edited my posts, deleting 3 pictures of the 706 with the elephant and substituting links to the big pictures of the 706 and the 700 and to the images of the front page and letters page of Locomotive Engineers Journal. I'm glad you found something interesting, which naturally was my hope. Mike
Deggesty: Say, Mike, can you explain how it is
I could have added to my comment about the Penn brothers (conductors on the Panama) an experience I had with one (I do not know which one it was, for I did not see much of those conductors). The day after Christmas, 1964, I went to visit my brother in Baton Rouge. My plan was to take #25 from Wesson to New Orleans, and then take the KCS up to Baton Rouge. #25 was running late, and before we reached McComb, I realized that I would miss my connection. So, I got off in McComb ater retrieving my coupon to New Orleans, and took the Panama--which also was running late. When I talked with the conductor about stopping off at Hammond, he told (probably in jest), that I already had one stopover on the ticket so he could not give me another one. I did get off in Hammond, and took the private limousine service to Baton Rouge--and the driver dropped me off at my brother's house. A few days later, the agent in Wesson handed me the Wesson-New Orleans coupon, and I sent it in for a refund of the Hammond-New Orleans portion. All told, I had pleasant experineces with the train crews on the IC trains.
Deggesty ZephyrOverland: Deggesty: A new question: In 1911, it was possible to ride the Florida Special (this was NOT the ACL train) between the Midwest and Jacksonville. What roads operated this train? The Queen & Crescent and the Southern operated the Cincinnati-Jacksonville Florida Special during this time period. That's it, ZO! This train did travel over the ACL between Jesup and Jacksonville, via trackage rights (as the Kansas City-Florida Special did most of its life). In later years, after the Q&C came into the Southern family, Southern would have operated it all the way. The earliest Southern timetable I have (1917) does not show this train at all--and has very few trains named. Next question, please, sir.
ZephyrOverland: Deggesty: A new question: In 1911, it was possible to ride the Florida Special (this was NOT the ACL train) between the Midwest and Jacksonville. What roads operated this train? The Queen & Crescent and the Southern operated the Cincinnati-Jacksonville Florida Special during this time period.
That's it, ZO! This train did travel over the ACL between Jesup and Jacksonville, via trackage rights (as the Kansas City-Florida Special did most of its life). In later years, after the Q&C came into the Southern family, Southern would have operated it all the way. The earliest Southern timetable I have (1917) does not show this train at all--and has very few trains named.
In the January 1917 Official Guide, the Florida Special is shown in both the Queen & Crescent and Southern sections. The Florida Special was originally the Chicago-St. Augustine Chicago and Florida Special, a train that set the Midwest-Florida alternate route precedent by operating between Chicago and Cincinnati either by the PRR, B4 or the Monon/CH&D, depending on the day of the week. By 1908, the train operated only between Cincinnati and Jacksonville, but the Big 4 operated a Cleveland-Cincinnati Florida Special and the PM/CH&D operated a Detroit-Cincinnati Florida Special, both concurrently with the Q&C/SR version.
As for the new question:
A train name more commonly associated with the UP was also used on the ATSF , the Milwaukee Road and the NYC&HR in one form or another. What was the name?
DeLuxe
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